Post your Promise Collection wins! 17 17

[batman_fan]

On 7/9/2022 at 9:57 PM, tth2 said:

The Promise 9.8 Planet Comics #38, which sold for $21,600 in June 2021, is going to be in the upcoming September Signature Auction. 

Anyone think it's going to reach that price again? 

I am going with the “way under” option

[jimbo_7071]

On 7/10/2022 at 4:21 PM, lou_fine said:

The Chinatown pedigree copy:  

https://www.cgccomics.com/news/article/8508/

Why do you think that those books might come to market? Didn't the owner express an intention to keep them for his personal collection? He may prefer to pass them along to his heirs.

[lou_fine]

On 7/11/2022 at 10:04 AM, jimbo_7071 said:

Why do you think that those books might come to market?

Well, if you take a closer read of my post, I said that I still highly doubt they would be coming to market anytime soon:  

On 7/10/2022 at 9:45 AM, lou_fine said:

Well, hopefully some of these books will finally be coming out once Heritage is all done with the Promise Collection, but I somehow I still doubt it as it's already been over 20+ years and they still haven't hit the marketplace yet.      

 

On 7/11/2022 at 10:04 AM, jimbo_7071 said:

Didn't the owner express an intention to keep them for his personal collection? He may prefer to pass them along to his heirs.

Then again, as the old saying goes..................................never say never!!!      

[jimbo_7071]

On 7/12/2022 at 2:43 AM, lou_fine said:

Well, if you take a closer read of my post, I said that I still highly doubt they would be coming to market anytime soon:  

 

Then again, as the old saying goes..................................never say never!!!      

He only had the books a little over 20 years. That's not a long time to own a book. I still think of books that I bought 20 years ago as new purchases because I've had some books for closer to 40 years now.

Unfortunately, I took a break from actively collecting in the early 90s and sold my best books a few years later, in '95 (to local dealers at a significant loss). Most of the books I kept were funny animal books that I liked but knew I wouldn't be able to sell. Those are worth about the same as what they were in the 80s.

I didn't think very highly of whatever SA material I had. I bought a F/VF or better ASM 15 for $25 in the 80s and sold it to a dealer in a stack of 20 or 30 books in '95. I sold the stack for about half what I paid for the books in it, so I guess you could say that I sold the ASM 15 for about $12.50. Now I'm seeing mid-grade copies of that issue priced at thousands of dollars. (I'm not sure why; it was never even a minimally sought-after issue.)

[sagii]

[sagii]

On 7/26/2022 at 1:36 PM, szav said:

Great book, and well done! It would appear this one was obtained on resale for quite the discount relative to its initial HA sale price.  Patience, for those who have it (as in not me), truly pays off with these books.

Thanks! Yes, popped up on eBay, at a higher price than they paid, without the make an offer option, then after a few weeks went straight auction format. 

I knew what ever the hammer price would be it would lower than the original and I also knew, I'd be the winner either way 

Brings my Promise count to 3 so far 

[lou_fine]

On 7/26/2022 at 10:36 AM, szav said:

Great book, and well done! It would appear this one was obtained on resale for quite the discount relative to its initial HA sale price.  Patience, for those who have it (as in not me), truly pays off with these books.

 

On 7/26/2022 at 12:11 PM, sagii said:

I knew what ever the hammer price would be it would lower than the original and I also knew, I'd be the winner either way 

Unlike what Mitch had predicted here, have we seen even a single one of these Promise Collection books come back to market and actually sell at a higher price point as compared to the original price, because I certainly can't seem to see any?    

[sagii]

On 7/26/2022 at 3:33 PM, lou_fine said:

 

Unlike what Mitch had predicted here, have we seen even a single one of these Promise Collection books come back to market and actually sell at a higher price point as compared to the original price, because I certainly can't seem to see any?    

Not by my observation either, just a case of flipping too soon (I think). 

[lou_fine]

On 7/26/2022 at 12:50 PM, sagii said:

On 7/26/2022 at 12:33 PM, lou_fine said:

Unlike what Mitch had predicted here, have we seen even a single one of these Promise Collection books come back to market and actually sell at a higher price point as compared to the original price, because I certainly can't seem to see any?    

Not by my observation either, just a case of flipping too soon (I think). 

I think it's really more of a problem of falling for the HA hype and getting caught up in the auction fever resulting in bidders bidding too high and overpaying for their books.  

Flipping too soon was certainly not a problem with the Berk Auction from about 5 years ago, as dealers like Ritter were getting them reslabbed into higher grades and selling those books for much more money within mere weeks of the auction ending.  Much better CGC turnaround times back in those days, I would imagine.  

BTW:  Has anybody here seen even a single one of these supposedly 5,000 Promise Collection books come back reslabbed with a higher grade, or is everybody scare to death of playing the usual CPR game with these books here?    

Edited July 26, 2022 by lou_fine

[sagii]

On 7/26/2022 at 5:35 PM, lou_fine said:

I think it's really more of a problem of falling for the HA hype and getting caught up in the auction fever resulting in bidders bidding too high and overpaying for their books.  

Flipping too soon was certainly not a problem with the Berk Auction from about 5 years ago, as dealers like Ritter were getting them reslabbed into higher grades and selling those books for much more money within mere weeks of the auction ending.  Much better CGC turnaround times back in those days, I would imagine.  

BTW:  Has anybody here seen even a single one of these supposedly 5,000 Promise Collection books come back reslabbed with a higher grade, or is everybody scare to death of playing the usual CPR game with these books here?    

That's an interesting contrast, as I do remember Berk books going for higher prices mere weeks later.  

Another factor to consider though:  Though Berk had some of the  highest graded copies of coveted books (at that time, and a few still holding those records or tied now i suspect) plus many a rare bird as well,  the Promise had the 'billing' of the 2nd coming of the Mile High find, and many of us wishing we had time machines to go back and be there when they first rolled out, felt 'well we're going to be there for this one'. So yes, bidding went nuts reaching numbers that could take years to gain a profit on with resale especially in the first two auctions and the occasional record sale in subsequent Signature and Sunday auctions .

That number in the corner and those gold labels are a lethal combination 

[tth2]

On 7/26/2022 at 3:33 PM, lou_fine said:

Unlike what Mitch had predicted here, have we seen even a single one of these Promise Collection books come back to market and actually sell at a higher price point as compared to the original price, because I certainly can't seem to see any? 

Have ANY of Mitch's predictions ever come true?

[tth2]

On 7/26/2022 at 5:35 PM, lou_fine said:

Flipping too soon was certainly not a problem with the Berk Auction from about 5 years ago, as dealers like Ritter were getting them reslabbed into higher grades and selling those books for much more money within mere weeks of the auction ending.

I know you'll never publicly agree with this because of your allegiances, but it's clear now that Jon made a terrible mistake in selling his collection through Metropolis/CC, which was further compounded by selling it all in one auction.

[jimbo_7071]

On 7/26/2022 at 3:33 PM, lou_fine said:

 

Unlike what Mitch had predicted here, have we seen even a single one of these Promise Collection books come back to market and actually sell at a higher price point as compared to the original price, because I certainly can't seem to see any?    

It will probably happen if there are books that have gotten hot, or if a particular Promise book flew under the radar and got a lackluster result the first time around—there were a rare few. It also depends whether you strictly look at the dollar amount or whether you adjust it for inflation. We went through a long stretch of years where inflation was practically negligible, but it isn't negligible any longer.

Inflation has supposedly been about 9% over the past year, but I don't know how that's calculated. I think that the politicians have rigged the formula to make it seem lower than it is. The things that I spend money on have certainly gone up more than 9% in the last year. The half-and-half that I put in my coffee has gone from $1.69 to $2.69 per quart, for instance. That's 59.2 %. I had a water heater quoted during the early months of COVID for $1,025. I waited two years because of the pandemic, and by the time I had it put in, the price had gone up to $1,350. That's 31.7% over two years, or 15.85% per year. The examples I could list are legion.

The point is, if you seen a Promise book that sold for $2,400 a year ago sell for $2,500 now, that book didn't increase in value, it lost $100 in value, even if you accept the government's official inflation numbers.

[adamstrange]

On 7/26/2022 at 10:53 PM, tth2 said:

I know you'll never publicly agree with this because of your allegiances, but it's clear now that Jon made a terrible mistake in selling his collection through Metropolis/CC, which was further compounded by selling it all in one auction.

I don't think he made a terrible mistake.  Metropolis handled his entire collection, including moderns and statues etc.  For his vintage comic books, his low grade copies of rare issues way out-performed the market, partly or fully making up for some of his premier copies selling, perhaps, for less than Heritage would have received.  

If he had sold in 2020, I think he would have done even better as the market in 2017, while strong, was not red hot.

[Mmehdy]

On 7/26/2022 at 12:33 PM, lou_fine said:

 

Unlike what Mitch had predicted here, have we seen even a single one of these Promise Collection books come back to market and actually sell at a higher price point as compared to the original price, because I certainly can't seem to see any?    

Let us take the Billy Wright collection...if you had resold 3 months or  6 months while the other Billy Wright Books were still coming on the market, you would get the same result. I am going to be right on the long term value of these book given the proper chance to let the collection breath out. In this weeks HA auction which is every Monday....there still is about 30 Promise books coming on the market this week alone including the exceptionally rare "Three Comics #4 "with three Spirit sections in the contents from 1944 which is going to be overlooked by everyone who assumes the selling of the collection is over at some ridculous price of $46.  The promise collection sale is still ongoing on a weekly basis.... With these books are still coming to the market and you are claiming I am not correct....give it a reasonable time period assimilate after the collection has completely come to the GA market.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Mmehdy

[tth2]

On 7/27/2022 at 9:59 AM, adamstrange said:

I don't think he made a terrible mistake.  Metropolis handled his entire collection, including moderns and statues etc.  For his vintage comic books, his low grade copies of rare issues way out-performed the market, partly or fully making up for some of his premier copies selling, perhaps, for less than Heritage would have received.  

If he had sold in 2020, I think he would have done even better as the market in 2017, while strong, was not red hot.

Okay, perhaps "terrible" mistake was overstating it.

But I still think he would've done better at Heritage, who I'm sure would've had no problem taking all his moderns and statues and miscellanea too.  There's also no reason to believe that the low grade copies wouldn't have done as well at Heritage, as we've seen from some of the huge multiples paid for low grade books there in recent years.

Even if he'd stayed with Metro, he would've done better if the collection had been split up into multiple auctions.  

Edited July 28, 2022 by tth2

[lou_fine]

On 7/26/2022 at 7:53 PM, tth2 said:

On 7/26/2022 at 2:35 PM, lou_fine said:

Flipping too soon was certainly not a problem with the Berk Auction from about 5 years ago, as dealers like Ritter were getting them reslabbed into higher grades and selling those books for much more money within mere weeks of the auction ending.

I know you'll never publicly agree with this because of your allegiances, but it's clear now that Jon made a terrible mistake in selling his collection through Metropolis/CC, which was further compounded by selling it all in one auction.

Please simply skip right to the next post if you want to avoid reading a long and convoluted answer to a not so simple question.      

From an auction results POV, I believe you are looking at this through 2021/22 eyes as the Comic Book Division of Heritage back in 2017 well before they got the headline grabbing Promise Collection and before the overall surge in collectibles due to a combination of the Covid lockdowns and crypto infused monies was nowhere near as robust and dominant as they are at this current point in time at least.  Especially since the strength and influence of these auction houses tend to waver or float up and down over time, depending upon the collections which they can acquire from their consignors.  Sure, their comic book related OA division was always the 800 lb gorilla in the OA market, but this was clearly not the case back then when it came strictly to the comic books only.  Heck, for awhile back then, I thought the HA comic book offerings were almost petering right out and that their entire focus might be shifting over to the OA portion of the marketplace. 

Now, if you are referring to the rather obvious grading discrepancy we see between the two collections, I guess this is either a good case for at least pre-screening your books for maximization of potential or a confirmation of the potential conflict of interest that collectors and boardies first feared when CCG brought out Matt's Classics Incorporated business and put it under their umbrella.  Of course, it could also be a combination of both reasons as I still remember reading on the Jon Berk thread with some boardies stating that it was in CGC's own best interest to grade those books as tough as possible and it only made good business sense to do so.  From the number of resubs we are seeing (or NOT seeing in this case) with the Promise books, this is clearly not the same case when Heritage is the submittor of these books as I imagine a different playbook is in use here.  

Totally agree with you 110% on the point of not achieving the best results when you put ALL of the books into one big auction, as even CC themselves were getting much better results with these book on their second go round.  Especially when it was so easy to simply think Pass and skip down to the next book or another title later on in the hopes that you might win that one at a more reasonable price point.  This point was pretty much acknowledged by everybody here, and heck, all I will say is that I would have some of those beautiful and rare Amazing Mystery Funnies in my collection right now if the letter "A" was at the end of the alphabet, as opposed to being the first letter in the alphabet.  

Then again, I seem to get the distinct impression from Jon's many comments that money was not the big key criterion in the disposal of his collection, but rather that the books be passed down to the next generation of comic book collectors to be the caretakers of them, like he had been for the past decades.  Doing it in one fell swoop would certainly ensure that the books be passed down to a wide swath of collectors, as opposed to divviding them up over multiple auctions and see them going mostly only to the deep pocketed collectors/investors.  In addition, being such a long time passionate comic book collector and true fan of the hobby, Jon probably also might have found it easier and less mentally painful to "rip off the bandage" in one fell swoop, as opposed to slowly and gently trying to peel it off.  

As for getting top dollar for your books, sometimes money is not the be all and end all that some of us seem to make it out to be, as there are usually also many other factors at play.  Maybe it was simply a case of Jon feeling a lot more comfortable dealing with "old school one of the boys" Fishler from the old days as opposed to the new "outsiders" like Halperin and Ivy.  Probably also a sense of loyalty since I am quite sure that Jon got a good portion of his books from Fishler back in the day, and sometimes you just go back to the ones that brung you there.  After all, sometimes money is not everything or else all collectors and all consignors including YOU would be cracking out every single book you own to see if their potential can be maximized any further in order to get top dollar when it came time to sell.  Since it's rather obvious that not everybody does this, you just have to respect the seller's choice when it comes time to sell, as I am sure they have their own good reasons.  

As for MY allegiances, I am in the fortunate position of not having to make any right at this point in time.  Although I have stated on many occasions that when it comes to our comic books, it's clearly not a case of one shoe fits all as each of the auction houses have their own individual strengths and weaknesses.  Any astute consignor needs to look at both the grading and auction environment when it comes time to sell their books as it is clearly a moving target which tends to change over time.  Heck, by the time it comes to me, I would not at all be surprised if micro-trimming was all the latest rage and Jason was now head of CGC after the ownership at CCG or whatever they are call figured that they've probably squeezed the last possible ounce of potential out of poor overworked now flat as a pancake Matt.  

Edited July 31, 2022 by lou_fine

[lou_fine]

On 7/26/2022 at 5:33 PM, sagii said:

Though Berk had some of the  highest graded copies of coveted books (at that time, and a few still holding those records or tied now i suspect) plus many a rare bird as well,  the Promise had the 'billing' of the 2nd coming of the Mile High find, and many of us wishing we had time machines to go back and be there when they first rolled out, felt 'well we're going to be there for this one'. So yes, bidding went nuts reaching numbers that could take years to gain a profit on with resale especially in the first two auctions and the occasional record sale in subsequent Signature and Sunday auctions .

Well, Heritage definitely played the game right with this collection here, as they utilized the old strategy of "one being born every minute" to the maxed hilt.  

Especially since once you got past the first two Signature Auctions, it should have been pretty clear to everybody by then that this was in no way the 2nd coming of the Edgar Church Collection from a pure book content point of view.  Much more like a 2nd coming of the Big Apple Collection, albeit in far superior higher grades.  Especially when we were basically left pretty much with 4th and 5th tier books from 3rd and 4th tier publishers made up mostly of books that many collectors within the hobby had low interest in prior to the Promise Collection being unearthed and marketed.  

 

On 7/26/2022 at 5:33 PM, sagii said:

That number in the corner and those gold labels are a lethal combination 

To each their own, but that number in the corner and some of the books encased within the holder with their clearly visible defects was a lethal combination for me as it brought into question inconsistent grading on this collection and held me back (though clearly not others ) from bidding higher on books which I otherwise would have gone higher on because I was not as sure what would be inside.    

Edited July 30, 2022 by lou_fine

[lou_fine]

On 7/27/2022 at 3:32 AM, jimbo_7071 said:

It will probably happen if there are books that have gotten hot, or if a particular Promise book flew under the radar and got a lackluster result the first time around—there were a rare few.

I would tend to agree with you that within the first hour of bidding in the first Promise Signature Auction, it was quite evident that not too much would be flying under the radar from that point onwards.  

Out of the big key books, the only one that I really noticed was the CGC 9.6 graded copy of All-American 61 with the classic Solomon Grundy that sold for a record setting $138K.  After watching some of the later results in that first auction, I got the impression that the AA 61 might have gone even higher in the $150K to $200K range if it had come later in the auction, instead of being the second or third book in when the bidders still seem to be trying to get a "feel" for the auction.    

[jimbo_7071]

On 7/30/2022 at 4:34 PM, lou_fine said:

I would tend to agree with you that within the first hour of bidding in the first Promise Signature Auction, it was quite evident that not too much would be flying under the radar from that point onwards.  

Out of the big key books, the only one that I really noticed was the CGC 9.6 graded copy of All-American 61 with the classic Solomon Grundy that sold for a record setting $138K.  After watching some of the later results in that first auction, I got the impression that the AA 61 might have gone even higher in the $150K to $200K range if it had come later in the auction, instead of being the second or third book in when the bidders still seem to be trying to get a "feel" for the auction.    

DCs in general appeared to have weak results compared to the Timelys. That may just reflect the state of DC collecting versus Timely collecting.

The AA61 was not a weak result, though.