Heritage April Auction 6 6

[Rick2you2]

On 3/21/2022 at 10:57 AM, vodou said:

Show of hands: who's in the category that doesn't get and agree with this?

Maybe nobody (I hope!)

You are correct. While it is a form of price-fixing, it may not be legally actionable.

[artdealer]

On 3/21/2022 at 10:57 AM, vodou said:

Show of hands: who's in the category that doesn't get and agree with this?

Maybe nobody (I hope!)

Market manipulation = Shilling 99% of the time. 

[Bronty]

It happens all the time in both comics and comic art, without people even realizing they are doing it.

Their favorite book is fantastic four 1, and they own a 6.0 (substitute DD168 in 9.8 or any book in any grade at all or subsitute a page by an artist you like).    They are a big fan of the book (page), another copy (page) comes up for sale and they bid 90% of FMV because the worst thing that could happen is that they get a double (similar example) of their favorite book (page) at a discount.

That happens every, single day.     And there's no agenda, there's no manipulation, just the market acting to set a floor, and there's nothing wrong with that.    So, to Tim's point, this is NOT shilling so long as the "defender" doesn't own the piece himself, is not colluding with the consignor or others, and is willing and able to buy the piece if his is the winning bid.

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by Bronty

[RBerman]

On 3/21/2022 at 4:14 PM, Bronty said:

It happens all the time in both comics and comic art, without people even realizing they are doing it.

Their favorite book is fantastic four 1, and they own a 6.0 (substitute DD168 in 9.8 or any book in any grade at all or subsitute a page by an artist you like).    They are a big fan of the book (page), another copy (page) comes up for sale and they bid 90% of FMV because the worst thing that could happen is that they get a double (similar example) of their favorite book (page) at a discount.

That happens every, single day.     And there's no agenda, there's no manipulation, just the market acting to set a floor, and there's nothing wrong with that.    So, to Tim's point, this is NOT shilling so long as the "defender" doesn't own the piece himself, is not colluding with the consignor or others, and is willing and able to buy the piece if his is the winning bid.

 

Indeed, the concept of "cornering the market" is as old as the concept of markets.

[jsylvester]

On 3/20/2022 at 6:48 PM, Rick2you2 said:

So are you saying that art for under $20,000 is lousy? Because if you are, then the bulk of my collection ought to make me sad. And, I am willing to wager that a fair number of other people on these boards would be in the same boat. What people are now willing to pay is something I consider extraordinary, but it’s their money. Is this a second paradigm shift? Maybe, collectibles that are hot are a good hedge against inflation. But that’s meaningless if you don’t buy it as an investment. 

I don’t think anyone thinks under $20k is lousy. I’ve had collectors diss the bulk of my collection calling the stories a fad that killed the comic industry. Many consider 90s art negatively. I still bought everything I saw as these were the stories I loved as a kid. I can remember every page and consider myself lucky. Yes the prices are high now but I just average the costs out. I’ve never looked down on anyone else’s art as I know they grew up on it and know what it feels like. All said I do think prices will go higher so it is a bit of an investment mindset that helps me rationalize spending this type of money. Everyone should buy what they love as it’s more difficult to sell whether the price is high or low.

[jsylvester]

On 3/20/2022 at 10:20 PM, cloud cloddie said:

I think most of the Supes pages are from Bogdanove’s personal collection. He cleaned out his storage unit last year and is probably sitting on a ton of art, so don’t think he’s necessarily worried about getting top dollar. 
 

I believe Janke got 1/2 the art so don’t think Bog has all that many Doomsday pages. I personally think he sold early but hope he does well and am sure he has a few awesome pieces he’ll hold long term. I’m just happy he’s the one benefitting from the auction.  

[cloud cloddie]

On 3/21/2022 at 6:53 PM, jsylvester said:

I believe Janke got 1/2 the art so don’t think Bog has all that many Doomsday pages. I personally think he sold early but hope he does well and am sure he has a few awesome pieces he’ll hold long term. I’m just happy he’s the one benefitting from the auction.  

This might be the majority of his Supes stuff, but pretty sure he had a decent amount of OA in general that had been sitting in storage til last year. But yeah, happy he’s getting the money. 

[jsylvester]

On 3/21/2022 at 5:14 PM, Bronty said:

It happens all the time in both comics and comic art, without people even realizing they are doing it.

Their favorite book is fantastic four 1, and they own a 6.0 (substitute DD168 in 9.8 or any book in any grade at all or subsitute a page by an artist you like).    They are a big fan of the book (page), another copy (page) comes up for sale and they bid 90% of FMV because the worst thing that could happen is that they get a double (similar example) of their favorite book (page) at a discount.

That happens every, single day.     And there's no agenda, there's no manipulation, just the market acting to set a floor, and there's nothing wrong with that.    So, to Tim's point, this is NOT shilling so long as the "defender" doesn't own the piece himself, is not colluding with the consignor or others, and is willing and able to buy the piece if his is the winning bid.

 

This is the first I’ve heard of the defender persona. I somewhat agree but don’t think it’s so cut and dry. I guess I’m a strange hybrid. I wasn’t a huge comic book reader except for a few big events along with some titles which really impacted me as a kid. I’ve purchased every piece I found except a few and kick myself every day for not going the distance on those missed opportunities. OA from these events dried up and found myself expanding into other great art and posters I grew up with. Luckily I expanded my interests as I can sell those pieces to buy what I originally started collecting for. There has to be a subset of collectors like me that buys a narrow range of OA from their childhood storylines. I haven’t sold any pages until recently after holding for over a decade. I’m sure I’ll consolidate some of it eventually but it’ll be difficult as I think every page is a keeper in its own way. I’m coming to terms that I can’t own everything and I’d back off from pieces if a fellow collector told me they wanted it. There’s a couple cool collectors that did it for me and don’t care if something sells low. Prices bounce around and would rather have friends that own art so we can talk about it. I personally don’t think auctions are a good example of comps anyway.

[tth2]

On 3/22/2022 at 5:53 AM, RBerman said:

Indeed, the concept of "cornering the market" is as old as the concept of markets.

It's not so much "cornering the market" as being a "market maker".  Cornering the market implies going aggressively after every Byrne X-Men with Wolverine page that comes to market with the goal of winning them all. 

Market making is not about going aggressively after stuff to win it, but simply ensuring that there will be a buyer for any Byrne X-Men with Wolverine page up to a certain price point.  If bidders take it above that point, great, more power to them.  But if they don't, then it'll end up in my collection.

Edited March 22, 2022 by tth2

[Rick2you2]

On 3/21/2022 at 4:45 PM, artdealer said:

Market manipulation = Shilling 99% of the time. 

But these days, how much is shilling vs. “market making” or price manipulation? I still find it unbelievable that people have paid so much for fairly pedestrian work, yet that seems to be the case. And, I plead guilty to buying spare OA in case I can ever use it for trade bait (not likely). Is there really that much shilling going on even now? My instincts suggest it should be on the rise to preserve market gains, but it could be just new money or people who have a limited recollection or caring about old prices.

[Rick2you2]

On 3/21/2022 at 10:48 PM, tth2 said:

It's not so much "cornering the market" as being a "market maker".  Cornering the market implies going aggressively after every Byrne X-Men with Wolverine page that comes to market with the goal of winning them all. 

Market making is not about going aggressively after stuff to win it, but simply ensuring that there will be a buyer for any Byrne X-Men with Wolverine page up to a certain price point.  If bidders take it above that point, great, more power to them.  But if they don't, then it'll end up in my collection.

Perfectly legal, and business is business. But, I still find it morally repugnant, while knowing full well no one doing it would give a damn.

 

[vodou]

On 3/22/2022 at 5:57 AM, Rick2you2 said:

Is there really that much shilling going on even now? My instincts suggest it should be on the rise to preserve market gains,

Probably very little, except for pieces that were bought in the last 2-4 years and are rotating back out again. "Hot" markets don't need "help". Lukewarm, cold, and recent overpays (relative to stripping out all the extra costs incurred -taxes, shipping, House %, etc on resale) "need help", more so anyway.

Example: Cockrum X-Men pages w/action and costumes and (often) snikt/claws out that I picked up for 100-250 twenty years ago...they don't need any help. None. Assuming I have quite a few (...I'll leave this to your imagination ha ha) "to distribute", do I care if some "only" achieve 95% of previous comp while others "advance the ball" only to 105%? Naw. $8k is really the same as $7500 or $8500 against "less than 250" cost basis from two decades ago, just details, just static   *Now if I had but one available to sell, I would be a lot more invested in that specific result as that would be that, which is the biggest and best reason to go deep on things you enjoy and believe have legs long-term...you'll have more opportunity to distribute "up the slope" (or even "down the other side" too) and/or trade into similar that you're cash-priced-out of too.

Another example: I bought a non-superhero 2x cover recently for a little over $5k earlier this year. As in less than three months ago. If I attempted to publicly auction it in the next 2-4 years, the temptation for a little "help" around the $4,500 to $5,500 area (if it stalled there) is obvious and understandable (though still completely immoral, and thus I wouldn't -duh), as my "minimum expectation" would be at least $7,500 net back to me over that timeframe.

[vodou]

On 3/22/2022 at 6:00 AM, Rick2you2 said:

Perfectly legal, and business is business.

Huh? I'm a collector. Not a dealer of comic art. It's very much not business when I bid up all things I already have quite a few of and would be happy to add more for "only" 100% of comps from 2 years ago. It's true that does create 'a floor' but it's also true that I can and will pay out those bids if I win them, cheerfully too, and turn xx into xxx quantity holding for things I like/love. Why is this construed as...

On 3/22/2022 at 6:00 AM, Rick2you2 said:

...morally repugnant

 

[jsylvester]

On 3/22/2022 at 5:57 AM, Rick2you2 said:

But these days, how much is shilling vs. “market making” or price manipulation? I still find it unbelievable that people have paid so much for fairly pedestrian work, yet that seems to be the case. And, I plead guilty to buying spare OA in case I can ever use it for trade bait (not likely). Is there really that much shilling going on even now? My instincts suggest it should be on the rise to preserve market gains, but it could be just new money or people who have a limited recollection or caring about old prices.

What does “I still find it unbelievable that people have paid so much for fairly pedestrian work” mean? It would make me sad knowing that anyone would consider the bulk of my collection pedestrian. 
also shilling isn’t as prevalent as you think. Good luck trusting someone to bid on a $40k piece of art and being stuck with the BP. I don’t know anyone that would be ok with that on either side. Us collectors certainly don’t trust each other with that type of ask let alone need to. Then again I’m a fairly secluded collector. The defender persona I can understand. I can also understand cornering the market which I guess I do unknowingly as I buy every single piece from a few stories. But shilling isn’t needed and good luck finding someone willing to do it at today’s prices.

[Rick2you2]

On 3/22/2022 at 12:14 PM, jsylvester said:

What does “I still find it unbelievable that people have paid so much for fairly pedestrian work” mean? It would make me sad knowing that anyone would consider the bulk of my collection pedestrian. 

No offense intended. When I started buying OA, I bought a Neal Adams cover for $200 and a Totleben/Bissette Swamp Thing page for around $40. So, no matter how much time has passed, everything seems absurdly expensive. By modern standards, your collection may be wonderful, and to you, it is wonderful. But the prices still leave me scratching my head.

[Rick2you2]

On 3/22/2022 at 10:11 AM, vodou said:

Huh? I'm a collector. Not a dealer of comic art. It's very much not business when I bid up all things I already have quite a few of and would be happy to add more for "only" 100% of comps from 2 years ago. It's true that does create 'a floor' but it's also true that I can and will pay out those bids if I win them, cheerfully too, and turn xx into xxx quantity holding for things I like/love. Why is this construed as...

 

Because I still consider bidding on art as something to acquire for personal appreciation, not for potential financial appreciation. I thought I was clear that this is my personal valuation system at work, whether anyone agrees with it or not. Just like my collection is idiosyncratic, so are my views (“while knowing full well that no one doing it would give a damn”).

Edited March 22, 2022 by Rick2you2

[jsylvester]

On 3/22/2022 at 1:26 PM, Rick2you2 said:

No offense intended. When I started buying OA, I bought a Neal Adams cover for $200 and a Totleben/Bissette Swamp Thing page for around $40. So, no matter how much time has passed, everything seems absurdly expensive. By modern standards, your collection may be wonderful, and to you, it is wonderful. But the prices still leave me scratching my head.

So when you use the term “pedestrian” it reflects all comic art? Never heard the term before and it has an elitist sound to it so wasn’t sure what the implication was. 
It looks like comic art across the board has increased in value significantly so everyone should be happy even though most of us will never sell it. It’s no surprise that prices are going up as OA as a whole is finally getting recognition and more people are finding out about it. I personally would rather own art than most other investments and yes I think of it as an investment in order to wrap my head around the prices today. This could all go down tomorrow with the stock market but it will just come back when a recovery comes. My mentality is to buy what I love with the intention to hold long term. I’ll probably sell a few pages along the way to pay for the initial costs but the bulk of it is staying with me.

[Rick2you2]

On 3/22/2022 at 1:46 PM, jsylvester said:

So when you use the term “pedestrian” it reflects all comic art? Never heard the term before and it has an elitist sound to it so wasn’t sure what the implication was. 
It looks like comic art across the board has increased in value significantly so everyone should be happy even though most of us will never sell it. It’s no surprise that prices are going up as OA as a whole is finally getting recognition and more people are finding out about it. I personally would rather own art than most other investments and yes I think of it as an investment in order to wrap my head around the prices today. This could all go down tomorrow with the stock market but it will just come back when a recovery comes. My mentality is to buy what I love with the intention to hold long term. I’ll probably sell a few pages along the way to pay for the initial costs but the bulk of it is staying with me.

On second thought, pedestrian is pretty harsh. Some of the things I buy are not exceptional, but I still love them. Of any category or art, be it fine art, sculpture or whatever, they just aren’t all exceptional. 
Actually, I am not happy with the way prices have gone up because it cuts into my ability to afford more pieces. And, I don’t think of it as an investment vehicle but as an expense. 

Edited March 22, 2022 by Rick2you2

[Timely]

No one who spends $5000 on a huge tv with sound system considers that an investment, it is $5000 spent for pleasure. To some, a $5000 piece of art is that, pleasure. To others, it is pleasure rationalized as an investment. Either way you rationalize the expense, it is still a $5000 expense that is hopefully enjoyed, no matter the reasoning put behind the purchase.

[GreatEscape]

On 3/22/2022 at 3:39 PM, Timely said:

No one who spends $5000 on a huge tv with sound system considers that an investment, it is $5000 spent for pleasure. To some, a $5000 piece of art is that, pleasure. To others, it is pleasure rationalized as an investment. Either way you rationalize the expense, it is still a $5000 expense that is hopefully enjoyed, no matter the reasoning put behind the purchase.

True, but the buyer would feel quite differently if after 3 years, the same-specs TV and sound system is valued at $7k or $3k.