The story of a promise made during the Korean War 9 9

[jimbo_7071]

On 2/26/2022 at 10:11 AM, sfcityduck said:

It is clear that Heritage is engaging in misdirection.  This is established by the basic fact that they are not telling us the true name of the younger brother.  The marketing story of the ped states the younger brother was "known as Junie" without explaining to whom or why or when. So the "Junie" part of the story is the least verifiable and most likely to be intended to conceal identity, not illuminate it.   There may be no records anywhere that tie the OO to the name "Junie."  For example, one of my favorite books as a kid was written about 1950 and features two central characters who are twins:  The older calls the younger "Junior" and the younger calls the older "Grandpa."  Nicknames are terms of endearment that can have a variety of origins and don't end up on official records.  So that is the least helpful of the info given by Heritage.

The most important info may well be what is on the comics themselves.  

Heritage has told an extraordinary story for the purpose of marketing comics.  A story so tailored to comic collectors that it it difficult to believe.  But I do not think that Heritage would want to profit off of a wholly false story for a host of reasons.  The Dumas brothers story, a better story than that told by Heritage (and potentially consistent with it), seems to fit the basic facts and the notion of a "promise" being important to the two brothers' relationship more than any other pair of candidates I've seen.  But, that could be wrong.  If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but their story is still worth knowing.  For me, the motivator is not the economics (as important as they are to the collecting community), but the history.

 

Suppose the part about "Junie" being killed in action turned out to be false? What if he came home from the war and became a barber or opened a car wash or went to school on the G. I. bill and became an accountant?

One would hope that CGC would have verified the backstory on the collection before titling it the "Promise Collection." One would hope.

Edited February 27, 2022 by jimbo_7071

[path4play]

On 2/24/2022 at 9:03 PM, Transplant said:

THE basis?  I'm not sure anyone is saying that.  ONE factor?  You bet your sweet bippy it's PART of the reason for the high prices.  

I agree with @RareHighGradeon this one.  Any pedigree that would have come out with this volume and high grades in this market would have done exceptionally well.  As I have attempted to argue in this thread several times now - number of keys, volume and grades are 75% of what goes into a pedigree's reputation.  The other 25% is backstory, and every pedigree is an unique an interesting story into its own.  In fact, every book that survives to today has a story - most which we don't know, a few that we do.  If you collected comics during WWII and were of age to be drafted, or participated in scrap drives, or worked on military production assembly line etc., odds are you intersected with those historic events in one way or another.

And yes, I believe all stories should be told.  But if prices are skyrocketing for the story alone, then I think that is misguided and its certainly not the root of my Promise purchases. And this situation is somewhat unique in it came just recently to market so its fresh in surviving family members minds (not something that is post-sales and pedigree designation from 'back in the day' and discovered by surviving family later who now have a peaked interest similar to our own).  This family seems to have requested anonymity for whatever unknown reason and likely has no clue as to the degree of interest that comic collectors are able to generate.  At some point, I'm sure the 'truth' will come out regardless thanks to those such as duck.  But I would expect future comics market conditions to swing the price 75%, and backstory 'truth' details to have a more subdued impact within that 25% relevance to this pedigree's reputation …and yes, perhaps we are on the high side of the 25% portion now in part due to the Streisand effect as much as the actual detailed 'truth' itself - to whatever degree of military service and sacrifice actually occurred.  

Edited February 27, 2022 by path4play

[sfcityduck]

Here's the problem with the endeavor of trying to I.D. "Robert" and "Junie":  There are far too many candidates.  A number of people suggested that I take a look at Cleveland.  I have.  And one of the many brother pairs who could be suspects is Louis Robert Mezzopera (8/6/1926 - 7/15/2020) whose obituary reveals that he is "U.S. Army veteran of the Korean War" and the "dear brother of Mary ..., Rena ...,Virginia ... and Armand" hails out of Cleveland.

Louis Robert Mezzopera was, indeed, the older brother of Armand Mezzopera (1/12/1929 - 7/13/1951) who died during the Korean War (his remains were recovered): 

Their father was John Mezzopera and the family lived in Cleveland:

Here's the differences between these brothers and Heritage's marketing story:

(1) Armand died at at the age of 22 and a half (not 21), so the story told by Heritage is not on all fours with this pair of brothers;

(2) Armand is not denoted as a "Jr." on the 1940 census records and was not even the youngest member of his family.  He may have the middle initial "J" based on the census records and one gravestone record, but neither that middle initial nor a middle name shows up on any military records.  There is no tie to the nickname ("Junie") that I can ascertain.

(3) There is no apparent connection between Armand and/or Louis Robert Mezzopera and comic books or, unlike the Dumas brothers, any "promise" story that I can find.

(4) Louis Robert Mezzopera appears to have always gone by "Louis" and was not "known as Robert" as far as I can tell.  In fact, his obituary only uses his middle initial and does not state his middle name.

Other facts:  Both Louis Robert Mezzopera and Armand filled out WWII draft cards (effective until 1947).  I cannot ascertain their enlistment dates or if either was drafted.

Armand, service no. US52080067, was in the 21st Inf Regt-24th Inf Div.  

So, again, as I've said, there are multiple suspects who could be the subject brothers. 

As for "Cleveland," that is consistent with this comic book in the collection issued by a Cleveland department store,

perhaps consistent with the "c" distributor codes which also appear on Ohio pedigree books (but which appear in other states), and is consistent with unconfirmed information about the discovery of the collection (not at all about the two brothers) presently circulating which points towards Cleveland (and on this point, I've heard other unconfirmed information which points towards Connecticut), then this could be the brother pair.  Or maybe not.

Which may beg the question: 

Do Heritage and CGC have any obligation to their customers, the buyers in their auctions and users of their certification services (including ped designation labels), to tell a story about a pedigree that is verifiable so that its truth can be ascertained?  If your answer is "none," do they have any obligation in your view to tell a truthful story at all?  Especially given that they both marketed the books with knowledge, in fact hype, that the story would boost the value of the books, perhaps by "multiples" as with the Okajima collection.

Food for thought.  Because unless Heritage, CGC, or the family steps up we may never verify anything about the Promise Collection story.

 

 

Edited February 28, 2022 by sfcityduck

[Straw-Man]

On 2/27/2022 at 3:53 PM, sfcityduck said:

Food for thought.  Because unless Heritage, CGC, or the family steps up we may never verify anything about the Promise Collection story.

ok by me. 

[Crowzilla]

Heritage only has an obligation to respect the consignors wishes, which at this point looks like it might well be to speak no more about the origins of the collection.

CGC only has an obligation to be satisfied that the collection meets the criteria for being a pedigree: size - check, condition - check, age - check, and it looks like it checks the box that it was all put together by a single purchaser at time of release. So all good.

[sfcityduck]

On 2/27/2022 at 3:30 PM, Straw-Man said:

ok by me. 

Well, you should take added solace then in knowing that not far from Cleveland, a mere two hours or so by car, and also a maritime port city, is Detroit.  

And in Detroit lived Robert Romeo Craig (5/26/1928 - 2/28/2001).  Here's his draft card:

His younger brother, interestingly enough, was Armand Craig, Jr. (3/21/1931 - 7/29/1950):

Both were Korea War soldiers.  Armand did not come home.  But, here's the thing, the Armand in this pair died at 19, not 21 as Heritage's marketing story suggests, and his elder brother Robert entered the military after Armand did and died almost 20 years ago (when Heritage says the books were put into bags, boxes, and catalogued, but not sold).  

So even though his pair of brothers has a "Robert" and a "Jr." (which most commonly gives rise to the nickname "Junie"), they do not fit the Heritage marketing story either.  They could plausibly fit the evidence of the comics (name of "Armand").  

Robert is a common name, and lots of brothers went to war.  So, again, verifying this kind of story that sketchy on details and obviously intended to hide true facts is extremely difficult.

 

 

Edited February 28, 2022 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

On 2/27/2022 at 6:39 PM, Crowzilla said:

Heritage only has an obligation to respect the consignors wishes, which at this point looks like it might well be to speak no more about the origins of the collection.

CGC only has an obligation to be satisfied that the collection meets the criteria for being a pedigree: size - check, condition - check, age - check, and it looks like it checks the box that it was all put together by a single purchaser at time of release. So all good.

I can think of many reasons why your view is not accurate.  Do you believe that when a seller or its agents make representations regarding a material aspect of a good, they have no obligation to be truthful?  In any event, the consignor's desire for anonymity may not be binding on Heritage or CGC (e.g. no confidentiality agreement or contract), and cannot be used as a shield under which inaccurate statements may be promulgated.  They could have just said nothing.  

But, that's a side issue.  The real issue is that if the family, Heritage, and CGC continue to hide behind a veil of silence, the story will never be verified (or a better story revealed), and that to me would be a sad outcome for the hobby and history.

[tth2]

On 2/28/2022 at 12:17 PM, sfcityduck said:

The real issue is that if the family, Heritage, and CGC continue to hide behind a veil of silence, the story will never be verified (or a better story revealed), and that to me would be a sad outcome for the hobby and history.

I've thought about it, and yes, I can live with this.

[buttock]

On 2/27/2022 at 9:17 PM, sfcityduck said:

I can think of many reasons why your view is not accurate.  Do you believe that when a seller or its agents make representations regarding a material aspect of a good, they have no obligation to be truthful?  In any event, the consignor's desire for anonymity may not be binding on Heritage or CGC (e.g. no confidentiality agreement or contract), and cannot be used as a shield under which inaccurate statements may be promulgated.  They could have just said nothing.  

But, that's a side issue.  The real issue is that if the family, Heritage, and CGC continue to hide behind a veil of silence, the story will never be verified (or a better story revealed), and that to me would be a sad outcome for the hobby and history.

 

[jimbo_7071]

On 2/27/2022 at 11:17 PM, sfcityduck said:

I can think of many reasons why your view is not accurate.  Do you believe that when a seller or its agents make representations regarding a material aspect of a good, they have no obligation to be truthful?  In any event, the consignor's desire for anonymity may not be binding on Heritage or CGC (e.g. no confidentiality agreement or contract), and cannot be used as a shield under which inaccurate statements may be promulgated.  They could have just said nothing.  

But, that's a side issue.  The real issue is that if the family, Heritage, and CGC continue to hide behind a veil of silence, the story will never be verified (or a better story revealed), and that to me would be a sad outcome for the hobby and history.

If the money is going to Robert's kids, is it possible that Armand's other nieces and nephews would have a claim on the money? Technically, the books didn't belong to Robert, right? They belonged to Armand. So keeping the story under wraps may be more about not wanting other family members to find out.

[jimbo_7071]

On 2/27/2022 at 11:02 PM, sfcityduck said:

Well, you should take added solace then in knowing that not far from Cleveland, a mere two hours or so by car, and also a maritime port city, is Detroit.  

And in Detroit lived Robert Romeo Craig (5/26/1928 - 2/28/2001).  Here's his draft card:

His younger brother, interestingly enough, was Armand Craig, Jr. (3/21/1931 - 7/29/1950):

Both were Korea War soldiers.  Armand did not come home.  But, here's the thing, the Armand in this pair died at 19, not 21 as Heritage's marketing story suggests, and his elder brother Robert entered the military after Armand did and died almost 20 years ago (when Heritage says the books were put into bags, boxes, and catalogued, but not sold).  

So even though his pair of brothers has a "Robert" and a "Jr." (which most commonly gives rise to the nickname "Junie"), they do not fit the Heritage marketing story either.  They could plausibly fit the evidence of the comics (name of "Armand").  

Robert is a common name, and lots of brothers went to war.  So, again, verifying this kind of story that sketchy on details and obviously intended to hide true facts is extremely difficult.

 

 

I saw that Armand as well, but the biggest problems are that 1) the markings on most of the books don't look like they're from the Detroit area and 2) the collection continues for several months after Armand Craig's death.

You mentioned before that the distributor coding looked like it came from Connecticut. Have you found any Armands from Connecticut who were KIA or MIA?

I have also considered the possibility that someone named Armand saved comics for Junie after Junie enlisted, in which case Junie's name might not even be Armand.

Edited February 28, 2022 by jimbo_7071

[adamstrange]

On 2/28/2022 at 12:28 AM, jimbo_7071 said:

Technically, the books didn't belong to Robert, right?

So far as we know from the Heritage story, they belonged to the younger brother who was an adult.  The disposition of his effects after his death would have been according to his will or the relevant state law.  Very often, the effects of a child who is not married and has no kids would go to the parents.  They, in turn, may have gifted the comics to Robert verbally, as who would sign a legal doc related to comic books?  That would make Robert the sole legal owner with the disposition now covered by his will or the relevant state law where he resided.

That's just one possibility, but, I suspect, a likely one.

[sfcityduck]

On 2/27/2022 at 9:40 PM, jimbo_7071 said:

I saw that Armand as well, but the biggest problems are that 1) the markings on most of the books don't look like they're from the Detroit area and 2) the collection continues for several months after Armand Craig's death.

 

Look at the Gravestone marker request for Armand Craig.  He supposedly died on 7/29/1950 but his parents did not request a grave marker until June 8, 1954.  Likely meaning that Armand Craig was MIA or a POW until he was subsequently declared dead.  In other words, the same story as Roger Armand Dumas.  That's how you would explain that the collection continues for several months after his alleged date of death.  That and the fact it took a month or more for parents to get notice of a death or MIA.

Edited February 28, 2022 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

On 2/27/2022 at 9:58 PM, adamstrange said:

So far as we know from the Heritage story, they belonged to the younger brother who was an adult.  The disposition of his effects after his death would have been according to his will or the relevant state law.  Very often, the effects of a child who is not married and has no kids would go to the parents.  They, in turn, may have gifted the comics to Robert verbally, as who would sign a legal doc related to comic books?  That would make Robert the sole legal owner with the disposition now covered by his will or the relevant state law where he resided.

That's just one possibility, but, I suspect, a likely one.

I agree that is the most likely as I'd guess the younger brother had no will and was young enough a parent was still alive.  But, if that is not the case, that is a really good reason to get to the true story of the collection.

[sfcityduck]

I will say this, the best part of trying to crack this mystery is learning about some incredible history related to the Korean War - known to its vets as the "forgotten war."  I can't help but admire and appreciate all of these Korean War vets, regardless of their relationship to the Promise Collection or not.

[jimbo_7071]

On 2/28/2022 at 1:57 AM, sfcityduck said:

Look at the Gravestone marker request for Armand Craig.  He supposedly died on 7/29/1950 but his parents did not request a grave marker until June 8, 1954.  Likely meaning that Armand Craig was MIA or a POW until he was subsequently declared dead.  In other words, the same story as Roger Armand Dumas.  That's how you would explain that the collection continues for several months after his alleged date of death.  That and the fact it took a month or more for parents to get notice of a death or MIA.

That's possible, but it might not be the only explanation. Maybe his remains weren't repatriated until '54. Many soldiers killed in battle are buried in temporary graveyards and then brought back later.

[jimbo_7071]

On 2/27/2022 at 4:53 PM, sfcityduck said:

Here's the problem with the endeavor of trying to I.D. "Robert" and "Junie":  There are far too many candidates.  A number of people suggested that I take a look at Cleveland.  I have.  And one of the many brother pairs who could be suspects is Louis Robert Mezzopera (8/6/1926 - 7/15/2020) whose obituary reveals that he is "U.S. Army veteran of the Korean War" and the "dear brother of Mary ..., Rena ...,Virginia ... and Armand" hails out of Cleveland.

Louis Robert Mezzopera was, indeed, the older brother of Armand Mezzopera (1/12/1929 - 7/13/1951) who died during the Korean War (his remains were recovered): 

Their father was John Mezzopera and the family lived in Cleveland:

Here's the differences between these brothers and Heritage's marketing story:

(1) Armand died at at the age of 22 and a half (not 21), so the story told by Heritage is not on all fours with this pair of brothers;

(2) Armand is not denoted as a "Jr." on the 1940 census records and was not even the youngest member of his family.  He may have the middle initial "J" based on the census records and one gravestone record, but neither that middle initial nor a middle name shows up on any military records.  There is no tie to the nickname ("Junie") that I can ascertain.

(3) There is no apparent connection between Armand and/or Louis Robert Mezzopera and comic books or, unlike the Dumas brothers, any "promise" story that I can find.

(4) Louis Robert Mezzopera appears to have always gone by "Louis" and was not "known as Robert" as far as I can tell.  In fact, his obituary only uses his middle initial and does not state his middle name.

Other facts:  Both Louis Robert Mezzopera and Armand filled out WWII draft cards (effective until 1947).  I cannot ascertain their enlistment dates or if either was drafted.

Armand, service no. US52080067, was in the 21st Inf Regt-24th Inf Div.  

So, again, as I've said, there are multiple suspects who could be the subject brothers. 

As for "Cleveland," that is consistent with this comic book in the collection issued by a Cleveland department store,

perhaps consistent with the "c" distributor codes which also appear on Ohio pedigree books (but which appear in other states), and is consistent with unconfirmed information about the discovery of the collection (not at all about the two brothers) presently circulating which points towards Cleveland (and on this point, I've heard other unconfirmed information which points towards Connecticut), then this could be the brother pair.  Or maybe not.

Which may beg the question: 

Do Heritage and CGC have any obligation to their customers, the buyers in their auctions and users of their certification services (including ped designation labels), to tell a story about a pedigree that is verifiable so that its truth can be ascertained?  If your answer is "none," do they have any obligation in your view to tell a truthful story at all?  Especially given that they both marketed the books with knowledge, in fact hype, that the story would boost the value of the books, perhaps by "multiples" as with the Okajima collection.

Food for thought.  Because unless Heritage, CGC, or the family steps up we may never verify anything about the Promise Collection story.

 

 

They didn't have an obligation to tell us anything, but because they chose to tell us some things, they are obligated to be truthful in terms of what they do share. Changing names is one thing, but if they've misstated any material facts, then they've committed fraud.

Whether any particular person cares about the backstory is irrelevant; we all know that the value of the books in the marketplace is affected by the story, and Heritage knows it, too.

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by jimbo_7071

[PDGray]

Ok, so I have spent a fair amount of time pondering these issues about the collection.

I absolutely agree that this is a high quality collection that likely would bring a fortune without the story that we have heard.  Now, having said that, what would the LIABILITY be to Heritage if it were revealed that the story weren't true at all?  This is a question best left to the lawyers on the board, but it seems to me that while they may wish to "shield" the family, there would be quite a bit of liability involved.  They may make HUGE gains on these sales as we have already seen, but this is based on the quality of the books AND the story behind them.  

Chances are I would have worked my way around to find one of the books either way, but for me especially as a Soldier for much of my life, this particular collection had a higher appeal to me than other GA pedigrees.

Just my random .02 and I know this may have been discussed elsewhere in another thread, but I haven't come across it (or don't remember this aspect being discussed in these terms).

 

PDG

[MrBedrock]

On 2/28/2022 at 6:54 PM, jimbo_7071 said:

 

Whether any particular person cares about the backstory is irrelevant; we all know that the value of the books in the marketplace is affected by the story, and Heritage knows it, too.

 

Your opinion doesn't necessarily make it relevant either.

[Tri-Color Brian]

On 3/1/2022 at 11:41 AM, MrBedrock said:

Your opinion doesn't necessarily make it relevant either.

My opinion is only relevant to me...and I think these books cost too much...