The story of a promise made during the Korean War 9 9

[lou_fine]

On 2/22/2022 at 8:25 PM, tth2 said:

I'm surprised that the prices generally held up as well as they did, and in some cases even increased!

Ditto, but what would surprise me even more would be if some of these Promise resellers were actually brave enough to play the CPR game or to send them back in for a straight regrade in hopes of getting an upgrade on these Promise Collection books here.  Especially since it seems to be part of the norm with the whole certified comic book marketplace nowadays, but probably not so much with these books here.  

On 2/22/2022 at 8:25 PM, tth2 said:

I think we'll get a more accurate sense of how the Promise books do upon resale when more come up for resale on Heritage or another major auction site.

Yes, I imagine only time will tell and I wonder how many, if any at all, we will see encased in higher graded slabs.      

[MasterChief]

On 2/15/2022 at 12:39 PM, sfcityduck said:

Roger, whose name is inscribed on the Courts of the Missing at the Honolulu Memorial

I've been to Punchbowl Cemetery many times over the years to visit loved ones. It is a remarkable and beautiful resting place for our Nation's heroes. I highly recommend a visit when in Oahu.
The next time I'm there I will look for Roger Armand Dumas. Here's a short video about the Honolulu Memorial...

 

 

[PDGray]

On 2/24/2022 at 2:25 AM, MasterChief said:

I've been to Punchbowl Cemetery many times over the years to visit loved ones. It is a remarkable and beautiful resting place for our Nation's heroes. I highly recommend a visit when in Oahu.
The next time I'm there I will look for Roger Armand Dumas. Here's a short video about the Honolulu Memorial...

 

 

 

I had the privelege to visit that memorial in July 1987.  I thought Hawaii was one of the most beautiful places I had (and still have) ever visited.

 

PDG

[buttock]

On 2/15/2022 at 10:08 PM, sfcityduck said:

Bailey Co's Dept. Store is in Cleveland.  I considered that book as it could be a problem for my theory as the Dumas family is NOT in Cleveland.  But, that issue is a Christmas issue that came out during WWII.  And in WWII, people were moving around for jobs, and Cleveland had wartime industry.  Could have been a gift from a relative or friend of the family.  Roger and Bob had significantly older siblings.  But, of course I could be wrong.  That is a possibility I admit.

I've been told that the distributor markings on the comics are consistent with other books known to come from Connecticut.  I don't give that any weight because I can't confirm it.  Maybe others can.

FYI, I've heard from a source with an impeccable history that the collection came from Ohio.  If these guys were from CT then it's probably not the right folks. 

[sfcityduck]

On 2/24/2022 at 8:49 AM, buttock said:

FYI, I've heard from a source with an impeccable history that the collection came from Ohio.  If these guys were from CT then it's probably not the right folks. 

What is the basis of your source's opinion? Hard to believe that Heritage (which reads the boards) or CGC (which operates them) would not just say the theory herein is wrong if folks are seriously in danger of being misled. Who is your source?

My apologies, but my concern is that some folks (I'm not saying you) might want to play some misdirection games out of a misguided desire to "protect" Heritage or the consignors.  

You previously posted on this thread:

On 2/16/2022 at 9:48 AM, buttock said:

Appreciate the research, but I disagree that Heritage owes you or anyone else anything at all other than what they owe to their consignors, which is the privacy they've asked for.  How you can justify that they need to breach that just for your sense of satisfaction with a comic book you own is beyond me.  

Perhaps your source thought you would be a sympathetic channel to try and throw off the scent.  Just a thought.

I do not rely on info I cannot verify.  I have been given information that comics with the same type of distribution marks have come out of Connecticut before.  I have also been told that a small lot of high grade GA books with the same type of distributor marks showed up for sale in a location near the Bob's home shortly before these books went to Heritage.  The story about those books was that they came out of a storage facility.  As I said, I can't verify those stories, so they don't factor into my analysis.  So unless you tell me your source, it's just another rumor that I have to in good conscience discount as it is not verified.  This information was given to me when I previously was looking at a pair brothers out of Detroit, Michigan.  I ultimately abandoned that pair of brothers as candidates because, although the names fit the story better, there was no hint of a "promise" connection and the older brother had died in 2001.  

As I have said many times, I could be wrong, I have looked at and rejected many many pairs of brothers.  But, the Dumas brothers seem a better fit than any.

I do note that Ohio pedigree books have distributor codes on their covers.  This is not unusual, as many comics have distributor codes.  The SF collection has "g" codes, River City has "s" codes, Penn might have "p" or "r" codes, some Okajima appear to have "f" codes, .  Maybe your source is relying on the Ohio pedigree which overlaps the Promise Collection and which either have just a date or a "c" code. CGC's code examples for Ohio pedigree:

There are "C" codes on some Promise books.  Here's a CGC example.

BUT there are also "c" (and "d" codes) on Mile High's and Aurora's out of Colorado (and I've been told, but not verified, in the Denver's also):

The Promise Collection also features many books "K" codes - which have not been seen on the Ohio pedigree books (or any other geographically identified pedigree) to my knowledge:

  

So if your source is basing his info on the "c" distributor codes, he's probably chasing a squirrel.  Unless someone can tie the codes to particular distributors and their geographic reach, this is just another data point that does not establish anything.

 

Edited February 24, 2022 by sfcityduck

[buttock]

On 2/24/2022 at 10:31 AM, sfcityduck said:

Who is the source?  Hard to believe that Heritage (which reads the boards) or CGC (which operates them) would not just say the theory herein is wrong if folks are seriously in danger of being misled. 

My apologies, but my concern is that some folks (I'm not saying you) might want to play some misdirection games out of a misguided desire to "protect" Heritage or the consignors.  

You previously posted on this thread:

Perhaps your source thought you would be a sympathetic channel to try and throw off the scent.  Just a thought.

I do not rely on info I cannot verify.  I have been given information that comics with the same type of distribution marks have come out of Connecticut before.  I have also been told that a small lot of high grade GA books with the same type of distributor marks showed up for sale in a location near the Bob's home shortly before these books went to Heritage.  The story about those books was that they came out of a storage facility.  As I said, I can't verify those stories, so they don't factor into my analysis.  So unless you tell me your source, it's just another rumor that I have to in good conscience discount as it is not verified.  This information was given to me when I previously was looking at a pair brothers out of Detroit, Michigan.  I ultimately abandoned that pair of brothers as candidates because, although the names fit the story better, there was no hint of a "promise" connection and the older brother had died in 2001.  

As I have said many times, I could be wrong, I have looked at and rejected many many pairs of brothers.  But, the Dumas brothers seem a better fit than any.

I do note that Ohio pedigree books have distributor codes on their covers.  This is not unusual, as many comics have distributor codes.  The SF collection has "g" codes, River City has "s" codes, Penn might have "p" or "r" codes, some Okajima appear to have "f" codes, .  Maybe your source is relying on the Ohio pedigree which overlaps the Promise Collection and which either have just a date or a "c" code. CGC's code examples for Ohio pedigree:

There are "C" codes on some Promise books.  Here's a CGC example.

BUT there are also "c" (and "d" codes) on Mile High's and Aurora's out of Colorado (and I've been told, but not verified, in the Denver's also):

The Promise Collection also features many books "K" codes - which have not been seen on the Ohio pedigree books (or any other geographically identified pedigree) to my knowledge:

  

So if your source is basing his info on the "c" distributor codes, he's probably chasing a squirrel.  Unless someone can tie the codes to particular distributors and their geographic reach, this is just another data point that does not establish anything.

 

My source told me this before the story was even made public.  It's nothing trying to throw off any scent. 

[sfcityduck]

On 2/24/2022 at 9:33 AM, buttock said:

My source told me this before the story was even made public.  It's nothing trying to throw off any scent. 

Well, without knowing who your source is or what your source's opinion is based upon, I'm not sure how I can give this more credence than the other unverified info I've been given.

 

Edited February 24, 2022 by sfcityduck

[Cat-Man_America]

Reminder, what this is all about, and why anyone bothers prying further into the Promise Collection story.

The Promise story guarantees a premium; if it didn't the tale of two brothers would be moot.  This story is the anchor buoying the groundbreaking sales enjoyed by many of these books. The hyperbole, the mystery, the patriotic appeal, over-the-top grades and poignant charm of promises made and patriotic sacrifice in war are the crucible that forged the phenomenal success of this collection. In my estimation these are the key reasons so many folks are determined to verify the facts behind the back-story.  This is the means of guaranteeing the long-term popularity of this pedigree.  It's a lot more than curiosity. It's a financial imperative to have all the facts since so much rides on the validity of this tale.  

The opinion that some Promise book grades appear to be artificially high ...opinions that are debatable, but relevant... provides added impetus for pursuing all the relevant facts behind the brother's story, privacy issues not withstanding.  To reiterate: those questioning the story and pushing for verifiable details aren't doing this out of malice, lack of respect for the memory of a fallen hero or any lack of consideration for the wishes of his immediate family members.  It's out of a fundamental need for critical oversight of the hobby by it's most ardent patrons, fans and investors.

[buttock]

On 2/24/2022 at 10:35 AM, sfcityduck said:

Well, without knowing who your source is or what your source's opinion is based upon, I'm not sure how I can this more credence than the other unverified info I've been given.

 

Ok. 

[jimbo_7071]

On 2/21/2022 at 4:46 PM, D84 said:

I usually make up stories involving hookers and blow.

Jay Maybruck, is that you?

[Transplant]

On 2/24/2022 at 11:36 AM, Cat-Man_America said:

Reminder, what this is all about, and why anyone bothers prying further into the Promise Collection story.

The Promise story guarantees a premium; if it didn't the tale of two brothers would be moot.  This story is the anchor buoying the groundbreaking sales enjoyed by many of these books. The hyperbole, the mystery, the patriotic appeal, over-the-top grades and poignant charm of promises made and patriotic sacrifice in war are the crucible that forged the phenomenal success of this collection. In my estimation these are the key reasons so many folks are determined to verify the facts behind the back-story.  This is the means of guaranteeing the long-term popularity of this pedigree.  It's a lot more than curiosity. It's a financial imperative to have all the facts since so much rides on the validity of this tale.  

Uh oh.  Richard might kick you off the "share a margarita and chips with" list.   to both of you.  

I hardly ever post here or the boards now, and I haven't gone after any Promise books, but to say that the story hasn't had SOME impact on prices doesn't make sense to me.  Graded comics can be distilled into more commodity like items than many types of antiques, but provenance still matters in this and most collecting fields.  It just does.  Can I say it equaled 1 3x premium?  No.  But I'd be lying if I said the story didn't help the prices go up to some degree.  As a result, the story is subject to investigation and refutation, regardless of whether Heritage or anyone else wants to spill the beans.  

[sfcityduck]

On 2/24/2022 at 10:22 AM, Transplant said:

Uh oh.  Richard might kick you off the "share a margarita and chips with" list.   to both of you.  

 

I suspect Cat and Bedrock share a desire for the full and correct story to come out for all the reasons that Cat just mentioned.  Bedrock just appears more concerned with how it comes out as he doesn't think Heritage should be put on the spot.  I believe that Heritage would always love to tell the most complete story they can if they believe that will help sell the books.  But, it appears their hands might be tied in this instance.  

[PDGray]

This is the mark from my Promise Collection book.  Looks like a "K" to me, just to add a little to the conversation.

 

 

PDG

 

[PDGray]

Doing a little bit of extra reading on the topic I came across this article from 2000 about Bob and Roger. 

The Last Casualties (newsweek.com)

I am not advocating one way or the other whether this is the correct pair of brothers, but it does speak to those who went MIA and are still unaccounted for.  It also makes mention of Roger having been brought to a repatriation point and then escorted away by Chinese guards never to be seen again.  I don't know how much faith I would put in the 1957 sighting mentioned earlier in the thread although anything is possible.

 

PDG

[PDGray]

CHAPTERS FROM A COLD WAR-ONE AMONG MANY | Joe Carvalko

 

Another story recounting the tale of Roger.  This one is a bit tough to read, but is MUCH more in-depth.

Again, not advocating for this to be the family - but these sorts of stories absolutely NEED to be told and retold until they all come home.

 

PDG

[RareHighGrade]

A lot of folks are just accepting the premise that the Promise collection's backstory is the basis for the record breaking prices.  I'm not convinced.  I think it may be due more to the fact that this is the first collection since the Church find that has so many books in such high grade (including ow/w page quality).  That, combined with the opportunity to buy in at the ground floor as well as the unique societal circumstances (shutdown, bitcoin, booming stock market), created a perfect storm for these nosebleed prices regardless of the backstory.

[Transplant]

On 2/24/2022 at 7:48 PM, RareHighGrade said:

A lot of folks are just accepting the premise that the Promise collection's backstory is the basis for the record breaking prices.

THE basis?  I'm not sure anyone is saying that.  ONE factor?  You bet your sweet bippy it's PART of the reason for the high prices.  

[LearnedHand]

On 2/24/2022 at 9:03 PM, Transplant said:

THE basis?  I'm not sure anyone is saying that.  ONE factor?  You bet your sweet bippy it's PART of the reason for the high prices.  

Maybe...  

While I am truly enjoying this thread, I'm one of those folks who paid many multiples for some of the Promise non-9.8s - without any interest or care about the backstory.  

Academic discussions on how - an MH or Promise 9.0 is equivalent to any other 9.0 or it would have been graded differently - are fine, but often not reality.  As I mentioned elsewhere, I find a time-warp fresh and glossy (but with some technical downgrades) copy superior to a well-preserved aged copy with fewer technical flaws.  In reality, there can be a significant difference in books to which CGC assigns identical grades, due to "intangibles."  As an example, I own 3 copies of a book: the MH in 9.0/W, lesser pedigree in 9.2 c/ow, and a no-name that's a 9.6/ow/w.  I've laid them next to each other for friends (hobby and non-hobby), covered the labels, and have asked "which one is best?"  100% of the time, it's the MH.    

By the way, people posted above about how MHs were selling for 3x Guide due to ... not sure.  For those who remember, they sold for 3x Guide because Rozanski (generally) priced them at 3x Guide.  Seasoned collectors or those with vision, knew what these books were and bought all they could.  Others scoffed at Rozanski and his ridiculous gouge pricing.  And for those who remember, when MHs were resold in print ads, they often weren't assigned "Good/Fine/Mint" condition.  Instead, simply as "Mile High."  

 

[buttock]

On 2/24/2022 at 6:48 PM, RareHighGrade said:

A lot of folks are just accepting the premise that the Promise collection's backstory is the basis for the record breaking prices.  I'm not convinced.  I think it may be due more to the fact that this is the first collection since the Church find that has so many books in such high grade (including ow/w page quality).  That, combined with the opportunity to buy in at the ground floor as well as the unique societal circumstances (shutdown, bitcoin, booming stock market), created a perfect storm for these nosebleed prices regardless of the backstory.

I've bought 3 books from the collection.  Two were simply because they were exceptionally nice books that I've wanted copies of for a long time and this was the opportunity to get them.  The third was a book that I needed for my collection, but was also one of only 2 books in the whole collection that had a unique tie to the back story.  For that one I felt compelled to pay a premium for the story.  But not really for any others.  So that's 2/5000 that seemed worthwhile in my mind.  

[jimjum12]

On 2/24/2022 at 10:26 PM, buttock said:

I've bought 3 books from the collection.  Two were simply because they were exceptionally nice books that I've wanted copies of for a long time and this was the opportunity to get them.  The third was a book that I needed for my collection, but was also one of only 2 books in the whole collection that had a unique tie to the back story.  For that one I felt compelled to pay a premium for the story.  But not really for any others.  So that's 2/5000 that seemed worthwhile in my mind.  

I feel like such a cad now ... I haven't yet bought the first one. Regardless, had I bought one at a hyper inflated price, I would not consider that grounds to disregard a grieving family's wish for privacy or the "promise" to respect that privacy by Heritage.  GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

I hate to tell anyone, but the sheer volume of quality in this hoard would have generated premiums even if it were the "dumpster" collection .... or even the "Yo Momma's Yard Sale" collection. 

Edited February 25, 2022 by jimjum12