Beware…Fake high value CGC books in Pacific Northwest 14 14

[VintageComics]

On 2/20/2023 at 1:17 PM, thehumantorch said:

And what do we do when these crooks refine their 'product' and we can't see a difference?

This is where Collector's Society will need to put their thinking cap on and get ahead of this in some way. 

[Qalyar]

I will note that all of the major coin certification companies have had forged slabs of varying degrees of quality. It's a problem, but it's not the end of the world. I do strongly suggest that CGC annotate the lookup record when counterfeits are known for a given serial number. @CGC Mike

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 2/20/2023 at 1:28 PM, Gonzimodo said:

I've often wondered if that's the case with some of the really awful-looking 9.6s and 9.8s I've seen for sale over the years...  (Yes, I know, "Buy the book, not the label...")

I’m curious about the posts on the fake slabs.  Have these guys figured out how to tamper with these tamper-resistant cases, or did the buyer not inspect the posts properly?

[Mr. Zipper]

On 2/20/2023 at 1:35 PM, Qalyar said:

I will note that all of the major coin certification companies have had forged slabs of varying degrees of quality. It's a problem, but it's not the end of the world. I do strongly suggest that CGC annotate the lookup record when counterfeits are known for a given serial number. @CGC Mike

Correct. Fake Chinese slabs of fake Morgan Dollars have been around for a while. The coin grading companies adapted. Seasoned collectors know what to look for. It’s a never ending game of building a better mousetrap. Too much money involved for crooks not to try. I’m just surprised it took so long with comics.   

[Qalyar]

On 2/20/2023 at 12:39 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

I’m curious about the posts on the fake slabs.  Have these guys figured out how to tamper with these tamper-resistant cases, or did the buyer not inspect the posts properly?

Agreed. I'd like to have seen better photos of exactly what went on. The label is, upon close examination, fake. But that doesn't answer how the case was compromised (it's far less likely that they custom-built fake cases de novo).

[Mr. Zipper]

On 2/20/2023 at 1:39 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

I’m curious about the posts on the fake slabs.  Have these guys figured out how to tamper with these tamper-resistant cases, or did the buyer not inspect the posts properly?

That’s the big question. Is the case fake or is it a repurposed used real case? Or did a quantity of real unused cases go missing?

[VintageComics]

On 2/20/2023 at 9:01 AM, MR. Pontoon said:

I can't imagine any of the full-time dealers I know buying books of this caliber via a Facebook posting.

The Superman #1 CGC 7.0 that sold for $2.8MIL just over a year ago came from a Facebook post, believe it or not. 

Raw. 

[VintageComics]

On 2/20/2023 at 1:47 PM, Mr. Zipper said:

That’s the big question. Is the case fake or is it a repurposed used real case? Or did a quantity of real unused cases go missing?

I sent out an email to a large group of dealers last night notifying them of the fraud. Most were unaware but one of the major dealers emailed back that they are involved and they have some additional info including some more info on the cases themselves. 

I've asked them whether this info can be shared or not. Waiting to hear back. They may well post here themselves. 

Edited February 20, 2023 by VintageComics

[thehumantorch]

On 2/20/2023 at 11:28 AM, MR. Pontoon said:

But again what about some due diligence or just some common sense? There’s about as much chance of a copy of Hulk #1 or Cap #1 offered at fraction of FMV from an unknown person on social media being legit as the Rolodex some guy is selling on a street corner.

 

Sure but what if the seller is asking 90% of FMV and what if he does it at a show or the counterfeit book and slab are so convincing he can sell it through major auction sites like Heritage Auctions?  What if the counterfeiter can profitably create $1000 books and goes for a bunch of singles and doubles rather than a Captain America #1 home run?  Once high quality counterfeits  enter the market we have a problem.

Edited February 20, 2023 by thehumantorch

[VintageComics]

Another thing to note is that according to my understanding, if any of these fraudulent books crossed state lines, wouldn't it make this a Federal crime?

For those of you who know your US laws, can anyone chime in?

Edited February 20, 2023 by VintageComics

[Sigur Ros]

On 2/20/2023 at 1:29 PM, VintageComics said:

I'm sure a company approaching a value of $1 Billion is not going to just let this slide.

I thought they had it covered  ?!  🤷

[VintageComics]

On 2/20/2023 at 2:00 PM, Sigur Ros said:

On 2/20/2023 at 1:29 PM, VintageComics said:

I'm sure a company approaching a value of $1 Billion is not going to just let this slide.

I thought they had it covered  ?!  🤷

Success is always moving goal. Not a stationary one. 

[Sigur Ros]

On 2/20/2023 at 2:02 PM, VintageComics said:

Success is always moving goal. Not a stationary one. 

So the holograms don't prove authenticity anymore?  Lol

[VintageComics]

On 2/20/2023 at 2:03 PM, Sigur Ros said:

So the holograms don't prove authenticity anymore?  Lol

Security is always a combination of things and not just one thing...unless you're Robocop. 

The Federal forces may protect the country, local police may protect the neighborhood but you still need to lock your front door as a deterrent. 

The CGC holder has MANY features to aid in securing the book.

The hologram proves it's from CGC, the inner holder seals the book in, but as a few people like Beyonder and Mr. Zipper have already noted, keeping the outermost holder from being compromised is the 1st line of defence. 

And I am sure more details will come out in regards to this. I'd expect a statement from CGC once Mike wades through his list of chores. 

This discussion is terrific because it's educating people on what to look for.

 

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by VintageComics

[MrBedrock]

I don't think Conan would be mad at me for copying this here. It is from a group email chain regarding this topic -

The owner of those two comics who posted the Facebook posts had submitted them to us for consignment and we were the ones who told him they were counterfeit.

 

Two comics--Hulk 1 CGC 6.5 serial 0304089001, and a coverless Captain America Comics #1.

 

The coverless Cap 1 was the wrong size, paper/printing was off, and the paper showed through white in places despite the pages being colored to look old.

 

On the Hulk 1, the top right and bottom right corners of the slab had a little bit of a curve/swelling to them. Not obviously cracked but kind of swelled/expanded a bit. I've attached two pictures of those corners. It was easier to see they were wonky in person than it is from those two images.

 

We also had doubts about the font/printing on the label, and when we cracked open the book the label was miscut and put together with glue.

 

Before cracking it open we found the same label number associated with a May 2017 sale in the Heritage archive and was clearly not the same book: https://comics.ha.com/itm/silver-age-1956-1969-/the-incredible-hulk-1-marvel-1962-cgc-fn-65-off-white-to-white-pages/a/7163-92174.s

 

The book inside was a counterfeit, just printer paper, not a substituted lower grade/restored copy.

 

Conan Saunders

MyComicShop

512-808-7099

[Sigur Ros]

On 2/20/2023 at 2:10 PM, VintageComics said:

The CGC holder has MANY features to aid in securing the book.

The hologram proves it's from CGC, the inner holder seals the book in

I dunno...  I think it's time we address the elephant in the room...

Have we ruled out the idea that CGC actually graded these fake covers full of copy paper and just missed it?

I mean... would anyone be surprised at this point?

🤙

[VintageComics]

On 2/20/2023 at 2:14 PM, MrBedrock said:

I don't think Conan would be mad at me for copying this here. It is from a group email chain regarding this topic -

The owner of those two comics who posted the Facebook posts had submitted them to us for consignment and we were the ones who told him they were counterfeit.

 

Two comics--Hulk 1 CGC 6.5 serial 0304089001, and a coverless Captain America Comics #1.

 

The coverless Cap 1 was the wrong size, paper/printing was off, and the paper showed through white in places despite the pages being colored to look old.

 

On the Hulk 1, the top right and bottom right corners of the slab had a little bit of a curve/swelling to them. Not obviously cracked but kind of swelled/expanded a bit. I've attached two pictures of those corners. It was easier to see they were wonky in person than it is from those two images.

 

We also had doubts about the font/printing on the label, and when we cracked open the book the label was miscut and put together with glue.

 

Before cracking it open we found the same label number associated with a May 2017 sale in the Heritage archive and was clearly not the same book: https://comics.ha.com/itm/silver-age-1956-1969-/the-incredible-hulk-1-marvel-1962-cgc-fn-65-off-white-to-white-pages/a/7163-92174.s

 

The book inside was a counterfeit, just printer paper, not a substituted lower grade/restored copy.

 

Conan Saunders

MyComicShop

512-808-7099

Thanks, Richie!

I just wasn't sure if Conan wanted it shared or not due to the police investigation but since you've shared it these are the pics of the slabs from the email. 

 

[10centcomics]

In part 3 of the Facebook post, it is mentioned that there is a fake Captain American Comics 1 cover (see pic below). Is this the same cover as the one mentioned in this Golden Age board thread? 

 

 

[VintageComics]

On 2/20/2023 at 2:17 PM, Sigur Ros said:

I dunno...  I think it's time we address the elephant in the room...

Have we ruled out the idea that CGC actually graded these fake covers full of copy paper and just missed it?

I mean... would anyone be surprised at this point?

🤙

Good point. They probably also changed their fonts on these specific books just for the heck of it, misprinted their own label and bent the slabs to see if anyone would notice. 

Carry on. 

[Sigur Ros]

On 2/20/2023 at 2:20 PM, VintageComics said:

Good point. They probably also changed their fonts on these specific books just for the heck of it, misprinted their own label and bent the slabs to see if anyone would notice. 

Carry on. 

I figured someone would take that seriously and react.

Though I had my money on a half-dozen other people before you.