ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[ADAMANTIUM]

I've heard getting it out sounds easy, I still haven't heard tale of anyone getting it back in as easy. Maybe that 9.2 were we're looking for was higher grade, and the resulting damage was from cramming and stuffing.

All of which sounds dirty! 

 

[ADAMANTIUM]

Oh ya the sonic weld

 

[Gator Guru]

On 12/19/2023 at 12:06 PM, jsilverjanet said:

the problem (and solution) seems very simple to me

CGC does not regrade on the reholders - part of that is because they don't want to admit they may have made a mistake when they graded the book the first time (or don't have enough staff etc)

CGC needs to change it's policy that it will regrade all reholder books

of course that means that damage caused by their case, encasing etc will be their responsibility, something in the past that they tried to accept responsibility for

The issue is the card companies will guarantee the grade unless they suspect tampering. So if you send in a comic for a reholder and its a lower grade they will give the lower grade and cash considerations. This isn’t what they do but what they should do. I sent a reholder sub in and they showed me an issue, I paid for a press that took care of the issue and they then said it would retain the grade and proceeded to reholder it.

Basically they should already be looking at a book’s condition as they did with mine. They also should guarantee the grade or compensate you for it.

[sledgehammer]

On 12/19/2023 at 8:35 AM, Geoff Newhouse said:

You can see photos of the July 11 sale on GoCollect.  It is not the same book as the December MJ sale despite the same CGC #.  The July book's wrap shows most of the $ sign by the 1.00.  The MJ book has a worse wrap and you can't even see the $ sign from the front.

I tried to find a lower grade MJ sale that matches the 9.8 MJ but can't find one through GoCollect.  Of course many other places he could have bought it that won't get pulled into GoCollect.

I don't need to see what book he used. I don't have access to go collect, can you put up the photo that shows what this certification number Looked like, when it was sold on July 11.

I'm talking about the new mutants 98, that I found.

thanks.

Edited December 19, 2023 by sledgehammer

[trademarkcomics]

Just saw this thread. Crazy. If there is a loophole, you can guarantee someone will exploit it. But my general rule of thumb is this: if it looks too good to be true*, it probably is...

(*like a FN/VF book getting a 9.8)

[THE_BEYONDER]

I’m curious if the buyer is aware of all this talk about the book. 

[WolverineX]

On 12/19/2023 at 1:28 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

I’m curious if the buyer is aware of all this talk about the book. 

If there really is a legit buyer...

[sledgehammer]

On 12/19/2023 at 11:14 AM, ADAMANTIUM said:

well if the "tops are popped", I guess that would still be "tamper evident"  

I guess I'm missing something. In my mind, the only way this works, especially on a book graded in 2011, is if CGC is getting the slab back, and there is no indication that it has been opened.

I can't believe that they could possibly be receiving slabs that show they have been opened, and then putting that inner well into a new slab, no questions asked???

[sledgehammer]

On 12/19/2023 at 12:28 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

I’m curious if the buyer is aware of all this talk about the book. 

i'm having a hard time picturing how he could be.

[Mikey C]

On 12/19/2023 at 1:31 PM, sledgehammer said:

I guess I'm missing something. In my mind, the only way this works, especially on a book graded in 2011, is if CGC is getting the slab back, and there is no indication that it has been opened.

I can't believe that they could possibly be receiving slabs that show they have been opened, and then putting that inner well into a new slab, no questions asked???

The book graded in 2011 was just a newsstand. He used that 9.8 case to slide a lower grade (9.4? 9.6?) MJ NM98 that was already in an inner well. If he wasn’t able to cleanly close it (which isn’t that hard, especially with older cases), he could just damage a corner and say he wanted a reholder because of that. Send it in, says he noticed it a MJ, bam. Same cert # but now with the MJ info on the label. I’ve personally cracked THREE CGC newsstands only to find out they had unmarked MJ inserts (I’m a raw collector).  

[sledgehammer]

On 12/19/2023 at 12:30 PM, WolverineX said:

If there really is a legit buyer...

A couple of days ago, I did take a look at the bid history of the $15k ASM 252 MJ.

in my opinion, the bidder that finished in second place, was pretty clearly a shill.

The winner, did not show the same ridiculous percentage of multiple bids in the last 30 days, with this one seller.

i'm not positive with the winner, but the second place guy smells bad to me.

 

[sledgehammer]

On 12/19/2023 at 12:38 PM, Mikey C said:

. I’ve personally cracked THREE CGC newsstands only to find out they had unmarked MJ inserts (I’m a raw collector).  

most of what you said, I had posted earlier, but I believe that this is only because the books that you opened were not keys.

i'm sure as an example, that there are copies of avengers 114, where it includes the insert, and it is not noted on the label. There are multiple books in GPA, where they do not call out MJ sales.

The new mutants 98 that I found from 2011, that is now identified as being an MJ book in the grading notes that were changed recently, is a different story than another book that sold three different times over the years, that was identified as MJ from the time that it was graded in 2011. 

[Still Only 35c]

Still no response from CGC?

[VintageComics]

On 12/17/2023 at 11:58 AM, JollyComics said:

On 12/17/2023 at 11:52 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

We’re talking about identifying a MJ within the slab.

I have seen several slabbed books with MJ inserts but I never saw the ads coming out at the top edge in the slab.

Just read this thread for the 1st time and this is disturbing. 

The MJ inserts don't "stick out" at the top, but you CAN often see them when looking at the edges of the pages, because the MJ inserts are a different color AND a different thickness than the newsprint. 

This seller could also be buying cheaper books with MJ inserts and inserting them into books. That is a possibility.

[sledgehammer]

On 12/19/2023 at 2:04 PM, VintageComics said:

This seller could also be buying cheaper books with MJ inserts and inserting them into books. That is a possibility.

Interesting. Thanks.

[VintageComics]

On 12/17/2023 at 11:31 AM, jaybuck43 said:

Isn't the easier option that its a fake slab?  The only way to tell if the book is a mark jewler's is to open it. No way is CGC just believing some random phone caller saying "Hey I bought this book and it's supposed to be a mark jeweler.  I'm gonna send it for a reholder" and CGC go, o sorry about that.  1) Its not the same submitter so CGC wouldn't fix it for them. 2) CGC would have to crack the book entirely.  They claim to always regrade when the inner well is opened.  

For me, the smarter scam is for someone to go on CGC's census, find a cert number, and use it on a fake label.  So that when someone runs the cert it comes back as valid.

How do the books end up on the CGC site, imaged and matched to the serial number?

The 2nd book HAD to have gone through CGC's hands, got reholdered and re-imaged. That's a process they only started this summer due to the scamming we had in the North West. 

The graders obviously saw this book and reholdered it into a 9.8 holder. They're supposed to check the grade to make sure the book hasn't been damaged but I can see quality control missing that on this copy. 

The scam copy looks more like a 9.2/9.4 than a 9.6 or 9.8 to me. 

[VintageComics]

On 12/17/2023 at 4:12 PM, ThothAmon said:

On 12/17/2023 at 4:04 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

I don’t think there’s any question that they aren’t the same books. 

In my mind there is. We only know any facts about the CGC taken photo of the custom label book. Need to know more info about the original sale to state with any certainty. I didn’t read all the instagram comments to see if any more info about the original sale was provided.  Now, If they aren’t the same book I’d agree something ain’t right. I watched the video closely to see all the information about the earlier photo. 

The two issues of #252 are totally different books. 

[sledgehammer]

On 12/19/2023 at 2:07 PM, VintageComics said:

On 12/17/2023 at 10:31 AM, jaybuck43 said:

Isn't the easier option that its a fake slab?  The only way to tell if the book is a mark jewler's is to open it. No way is CGC just believing some random phone caller saying "Hey I bought this book and it's supposed to be a mark jeweler.  I'm gonna send it for a reholder" and CGC go, o sorry about that.  1) Its not the same submitter so CGC wouldn't fix it for them. 2) CGC would have to crack the book entirely.  They claim to always regrade when the inner well is opened.  

For me, the smarter scam is for someone to go on CGC's census, find a cert number, and use it on a fake label.  So that when someone runs the cert it comes back as valid.

How do the books end up on the CGC site, imaged and matched to the serial number?

Exactly.

So is it realistic to think this seller can reseal slabs where he slid an inner well in to holders?

Edited December 19, 2023 by sledgehammer

[ThothAmon]

On 12/19/2023 at 3:13 PM, VintageComics said:

The two issues of #252 are totally different books. 

Little late to the game. Would you read the whole thread first please …

[sledgehammer]

On 12/19/2023 at 2:13 PM, VintageComics said:

The two issues of #252 are totally different books. 

Are you caught up yet?