ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[ThothAmon]

On 12/18/2023 at 10:21 AM, Mikey C said:

None of these copies seem to be the one that’s living in the 9.8 CGC case unfortunately. 
 

Let’s also not forget it’s possible he bought a newsstand copy and married a MJ insert from the same era into the book. Scammers will scam and CGC has proven they’re no experts. 

 It just dawned on me that it’s unlikely the offending book was raw. Can’t be easy to encapsulate in the inner well to pass muster at reholdering. More likely the book was a somewhat recently already slabbed MJ that had the book in its CGC encapsulated inner well when slid into the 9.8 holder. Here is a list of the CGC graded mark jewelers sold on eBay last year with screenshots of the available photos from the original listings. 
 

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by ThothAmon

[Mikey C]

On 12/18/2023 at 11:10 AM, ThothAmon said:

 It just dawned on me that it’s unlikely the offending book was raw. Can’t be easy to encapsulate in the inner well to pass muster at reholdering. More likely the book was a somewhat recently already slabbed MJ that had the book in its CGC encapsulated inner well when slid into the 9.8 holder. Here is a list of the CGC graded mark jewelers sold on eBay last year with screenshots of the available photos from the original listings. 
 

 

Ahhhh yes. You’re right. It most likely would have to be a book already in an inner well. Great point. 
 

None of those posted books look to be the copy. Thanks for digging those up!

[Jose2099]

Here's my theory: seller buys 9.8 copy of newsstand, then seller buys a 9.4-9.6 newsstand copy of the book with MJ insert. Seller cracks 9.8 open enough to cause "mechanical error damage" enough to warrant re-holder but not cause enough suspicion of foul play; seller then inserts lower grade newsie with MJ into 9.8 case and asks for custom label as well. Whenever you get a custom label, I know it goes through a slightly different process because they always separate the shipping between standard blue labels and custom labels. Maybe this is a loophole being abused that has reduced QC checks for fraud. To the person re-holdering, looks like a damaged slab with the same book in it because the inner well looks intact. So the lower grade copy skips a grading QC check and just gets put into a new slab with a custom label with the MJ insert verbiage since they can see the insert without removing the book completely. 

Easy fix: require all reholder requests asking for a MJ insert update go through a regrading process to ensure accuracy and that the grade matches the condition of the book. Would that suck for the honest customer? Yes. But it is for the greater good.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Jose2099

[Mikey C]

So that same eBay seller sold a 9.8 newsstand in October that looks an awful lot like the original 9.8 he purchased in August. Different cert #s. So shady. 

[sledgehammer]

On 12/18/2023 at 10:10 AM, ThothAmon said:

 It just dawned on me that it’s unlikely the offending book was raw. Can’t be easy to encapsulate in the inner well to pass muster at reholdering. More likely the book was a somewhat recently already slabbed MJ that had the book in its CGC encapsulated inner well when slid into the 9.8 holder. Here is a list of the CGC graded mark jewelers sold on eBay last year with screenshots of the available photos from the original listings. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

Do you have a photo of the one 9.2 MJ sold on April 4th?

It was graded this year, so it would be a prime candidate to seal inside of the 9.8 label case, and ask for a special label.

[Nschenks]

Unfortunately if he bought a slabbed sub-9.8 MJ, it could easily have been bought offline at a show, in an offline auction, at a LCS, etc. So trying to find the specific MJ that was swapped is going to be tricky, as eBay/Heritage/etc. probably only accounts for a small amount of the potential sold population. If it was bought at a show or LCS, hopefully the seller/owner is aware of the videos and may recognize the book they sold.

[Sigur Ros]

On 12/18/2023 at 11:43 AM, Jose2099 said:

Easy fix: require all reholder requests asking for a MJ insert update go through a regrading process to ensure accuracy and that the grade matches the condition of the book.

MJ or not.... If all reholders aren't being examined for possible book-switching then there is a serious flaw in the CGC system.

[ThothAmon]

On 12/18/2023 at 12:35 PM, Sigur Ros said:

MJ or not.... If all reholders aren't being examined for possible book-switching then there is a serious flaw in the CGC system.

Shocked they don’t already?  
 

On 12/18/2023 at 12:02 PM, sledgehammer said:

Do you have a photo of the one 9.2 MJ sold on April 4th?

No but you know who does. If our conjecture is correct and CGC has been scanning all its slabs since the implementation of the current inner well they could easily find the offending book in their database of ASM 252s MJ variants. Otherwise as pointed out tracing the sales history of the offending book will be more luck than science. 

[Poekaymon]

In case you needed it, one more reason to buy the book and not the label.

[Mikey C]

What’s crazy is if that 2nd book never came to light, there was 61 bids on that swapped 9.8 and everyone had a chance to put their eyes on it before bidding anywhere near the $15,700 it sold for. As was just mentioned, buy the book, not the grade. 

[Lightning55]

On 12/18/2023 at 11:57 AM, Mikey C said:

So that same eBay seller sold a 9.8 newsstand in October that looks an awful lot like the original 9.8 he purchased in August. Different cert #s. So shady. 

This makes no sense to me. What good would it do to take a 9.8 book out of a 9.8 holder/label and put it into a 9.8 holder/label with a different cert? There's nothing to gain. 

The idea we are investigating is moving a lower grade book into a higher grade case.

[ThothAmon]

On 12/18/2023 at 4:00 PM, Lightning55 said:

This makes no sense to me. What good would it do to take a 9.8 book out of a 9.8 holder/label and put it into a 9.8 holder/label with a different cert? There's nothing to gain. 

The idea we are investigating is moving a lower grade book into a higher grade case.

I think you’re missing his point. The original 9.8 was ostensibly cracked out completely and Resubmitted for a fresh 9.8 and resold. The lower graded newsstand cracked from its case but still encased in inner well is carefully slid into original now empty 9.8 case and sent in for custom label and “missed” MJ.
 

Make the Original 9.8 cost back with that sale and $15k or so on the next. And they would have got away with it except for those darn …

Edited December 18, 2023 by ThothAmon

[Lightning55]

Oh, you're right,  I did miss the point. Not much of an explanation to follow there, though, in my own defense.

But now you have me in suspense. What follows "except for those darn..."?

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/18/2023 at 3:28 PM, Lightning55 said:

Oh, you're right,  I did miss the point. Not much of an explanation to follow there, though, in my own defense.

But now you have me in suspense. What follows "except for those darn..."?

Kids... From Scooby Doo!

[ADAMANTIUM]

Unless that was sarcasm 😉

[WolverineX]

The biggest travesty of this thread is that somebody out there actually bought a MJ for 15k... geez.  with that money go for the ASM 1

[paqart]

On 12/17/2023 at 12:14 PM, Tnexus said:

Do MJ books have different staples? How easy would it be to just remove MJ inserts from other books and swap them in?

If anyone did that, they'd have to be careful about which ad they use, because they aren't the same.

[paqart]

On 12/18/2023 at 11:40 AM, Mikey C said:

Ahhhh yes. You’re right. It most likely would have to be a book already in an inner well. Great point. 
 

None of those posted books look to be the copy. Thanks for digging those up!

I don't understand this. Can you explain for someone who doesn't know why the comic has to be in the inner well to begin with?

[ThothAmon]

On 12/18/2023 at 6:02 PM, paqart said:

I don't understand this. Can you explain for someone who doesn't know why the comic has to be in the inner well to begin with?

My opinion is a scammer couldn’t risk trying to seal a raw MJ ASM 252 himself/herself  before sliding into an inner well before replacing the original comic in the empty 9.8 holder. Using one that CGC HAD actually sealed into the inner well would look to even a discriminating eye to be untampered with when received back at CGC for reholdering and the custom label. 

[sledgehammer]

On 12/18/2023 at 10:57 AM, Mikey C said:

So that same eBay seller sold a 9.8 newsstand in October that looks an awful lot like the original 9.8 he purchased in August. Different cert #s. So shady. 

 

this really does look like it is the same copy as the original book in that MJ holder now. only CGC can possibly know for sure, as long as they have imaging. this book was graded in September, so the timeline certainly works.