ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Sigur Ros]

On 12/20/2023 at 9:39 PM, comicginger1789 said:

And….has anyone bothered to message this seller? Ask a couple innocent questions? If not something I would consider doing if no one has…..

In the video from the9.9newstand a couple days ago he discusses that.

[Mikey C]

On 12/20/2023 at 9:57 PM, D Stuart said:

The plot thickens... again:

 

 

Well. That’s all the proof I need. A green label book dropped into a blue label case. This dude was doing it all. 

[Heronext]

On 12/20/2023 at 9:57 PM, D Stuart said:

The plot thickens... again:

 

 

That's impressive work... I predict an FBI raid of the seller's house and a CGC recall of 10 million slabs

[Nick Furious]

This is going to turn out to be a submission bonanza for CGC.  It's going to look bad initially as buyers are wary of anything that has a newer label with an older Cert number.  But regrading high dollar books to get a new and current certification number is going to go through the roof (at least for those where the date of the Cert number doesn't align with the date of the label).  The next business move would be to offer some significant discount on regrading (previously re-slabbed) high dollar books into new Cert numbers. 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Nick Furious

[Timed]

Don't know if this has been mentioned, but in this livestream (timestamp 18:06) the guy that originally brought this to light mentions something very interesting... the fraudster said to him in DM's that he had "relationships with higher ups at CGC" and "calls in favors from time to time". For context, he had talked with the guy before this exposure - it was by sheer dumbness that the culprit exposed himself by providing conflicting info in desperation, when the house of cards had begun to collapse.

This may explain how this has transpired. 

[AbsoluteCarnage]

I'm hoping this wasn't the guy that bought this book but in the interest of protecting the high grade 181 hulk buyer community this book should be posted incase he did as there's only 1 9.8 Qualified in Census so you could compare front covers to any 181 9.8 you were looking at buying. Definitely some light scuff between the top of "K" and some other markings along with the wrap. Book sold not too long ago on Heritage for $9500 or so USD.

 

Again I hope this person didn't buy this book but just posting incase they did and a blue 9.8 pops up sooner than later.

 

[paqart]

On 12/19/2023 at 8:03 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

Another possible avenue of discussion is awaiting cgc reply,  or if there will be one and any time soon. Not with pitchforks imo 😂

Unless they look into the guys submissions and decide to ban him, then he sues, and.

Otherwise it might end up private info?

If I ran CGC, I would want to have my customer's confidence. That would mean dealing with issues like this when they come up, annd changing how things are done to prevent a reccurrence. I think the fairest solution is this: CGC offers to buy back the ASM 252 and NM 98 at full purchase price. Then, CGC goes after the seller who defrauded them to get their money back, if possible. Also, I would do this as publicly as possible.

[Lightning55]

On 12/20/2023 at 7:46 PM, TheLexLuthorCollection said:

I agree that reholders need to be regraded.  I also agree that the slabs need a more secure design.  But isn't it odd that a $3M book has the same slab as a $10 book?  Given the amount of money that we are talking about with expensive books and the cost of grading these expensive books, CGC should offer different slab designs for different book values.  Surely a $5000 book deserves a much more secure slab design than the $10 book.

I completely agree with this. For the high fees on valuable books, that may take only a bit longer to grade (more thorough resto check), CGC could well afford to add security features, included in the price. And make those same features available to any submission, as optional upgrades.

[drotto]

Could this get even more subtle.  It seems like at this point the seller is targeting books with either high yield subtle variants, like the MJ, or book like H181 with a well known "issue" that results in a qualified grade.  Yeah, what about swapping out unrestored for restored books, or even books where a mild grade bump gets a massive price increase.  So taking a AF15 at a 3.0 and swapping it into 4.0 case? With the inconsistencies in grading this could easily go un-noticed, but lead to massive profit. As a collector just wading into the big key market, this has me a bit spooked. 

[Cat]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:59 AM, VintageComics said:

As someone who submits WAY more books than the average Joe, I can say that this view is not correct. 

I've received 9.9's when I expected only 9.8's, and I've submitted books in the hope of 9.9's (and expected them) and only got 9.8s.

So they HAVE handed out 9.9s when the books deserve them. Remember, these graders are also comic fans and if a book is exceptional, they will notice it just like any of us would. 

That's been my experience. 

I thought you were a better grader than 99.9% of us? 

[Lightning55]

On 12/20/2023 at 9:06 PM, drotto said:

Would it be practical to put a "clip" around the edge of each side of the holder, that would break with any tampering, in addition to the sonic weld? I know that would mean a redesign. 

I don't think it would help. It would be difficult to determine if the clip broke during a "comic swap" or during shipment. So you're back in the same dilemma. 

[drotto]

On 12/20/2023 at 10:52 PM, Lightning55 said:

I don't think it would help. It would be difficult to determine if the clip broke during a "comic swap" or during shipment. So you're back in the same dilemma. 

I am talking a clip that would sit flush with the edge and then welded in place. Seems like that would be very hard to break.

[VintageComics]

On 12/20/2023 at 10:41 PM, paqart said:

If I ran CGC, I would want to have my customer's confidence. That would mean dealing with issues like this when they come up, annd changing how things are done to prevent a reccurrence. I think the fairest solution is this: CGC offers to buy back the ASM 252 and NM 98 at full purchase price. Then, CGC goes after the seller who defrauded them to get their money back, if possible. Also, I would do this as publicly as possible.

Oh, they'll be going after this guy, that's for sure. This is fraud on a grand scale and it may be jail time depending on the extent of the fraud. 

By the looks of it we're well into 5 figures territory and who knows how high that number goes?

On 12/20/2023 at 10:50 PM, Cat said:

I thought you were a better grader than 99.9% of us? 

I still am. 

Edited December 21, 2023 by VintageComics

[Nick Furious]

On 12/20/2023 at 9:50 PM, drotto said:

Could this get even more subtle.  It seems like at this point the seller is targeting books with either high yield subtle variants, like the MJ, or book like H181 with a well known "issue" that results in a qualified grade.  Yeah, what about swapping out unrestored for restored books, or even books where a mild grade bump gets a massive price increase.  So taking a AF15 at a 3.0 and swapping it into 4.0 case? With the inconsistencies in grading this could easily go un-noticed, but lead to massive profit. As a collector just wading into the big key market, this has me a bit spooked. 

If the age of the label matches up with the age of the Cert number, that would alleviate most of my concerns.  At least for books that are not in the new holders.    

[Lightning55]

On 12/20/2023 at 10:55 PM, drotto said:

I am talking a clip that would sit flush with the edge and then welded in place. Seems like that would be very hard to break.

Yeah, that might work. Anything that makes tampering more obvious would help.

[Nick Furious]

A.I. can probably already solve this problem without needing to redesign the case.  Input the label information, scan the book...and you get a green light or red light for re-holdering without re-grading.    

[Prince Namor]

On 12/21/2023 at 3:59 AM, VintageComics said:

As someone who submits WAY more books than the average Joe, I can say that this view is not correct. 

I've received 9.9's when I expected only 9.8's, and I've submitted books in the hope of 9.9's (and expected them) and only got 9.8s.

So they HAVE handed out 9.9s when the books deserve them. Remember, these graders are also comic fans and if a book is exceptional, they will notice it just like any of us would. 

That's been my experience. 

I'm friends with an average JOE who submits way more books than you do - and he certainly RESUBMITS the SAME books to test the system way more than you do - and I can assure you the inconsistencies are very clear. CGC limits the 9.9's and 10.0's very specifically. If he ever stops submitting and decides to release his data to the world, it would be a... a big shock to people. 

[Heronext]

On 12/20/2023 at 11:09 PM, Nick Furious said:

A.I. can probably already solve this problem without needing to redesign the case.  Input the label information, scan the book...and you get a green light or red light for re-holdering without re-grading.    

And weigh all submissions to the microgram.

Would love it if they videoed grading sessions too.  A friend's Mazda dealership does that for inspections; customers can watch online.

Edited December 21, 2023 by Heronext

[Prince Namor]

On 12/21/2023 at 10:50 AM, drotto said:

Could this get even more subtle.  It seems like at this point the seller is targeting books with either high yield subtle variants, like the MJ, or book like H181 with a well known "issue" that results in a qualified grade.  Yeah, what about swapping out unrestored for restored books, or even books where a mild grade bump gets a massive price increase.  So taking a AF15 at a 3.0 and swapping it into 4.0 case? With the inconsistencies in grading this could easily go un-noticed, but lead to massive profit. As a collector just wading into the big key market, this has me a bit spooked. 

It's frightening to think... look at the work he had to do to track THIS one down... if there are SUBTLE swaps out there... holy cow, who knows how long he may have been doing this... who knows how MUCH he may have been doing this... can you imagine the damage???

[Prince Namor]

On 12/21/2023 at 11:13 AM, Heronext said:

And weigh all submissions to the microgram.

Would love it if they videoed grading sessions too.  My Mazda dealership does that for inspections & customer can watch online.

I can't believe that with everything we can do with scanning, CGC hasn't put the money (well, I mean.. maybe they HAVE and just haven't announced it yet) a way to DIGITALLY SCAN GRADE a comic book. No more being fooled by colors and dark black covers and... but a program that can scan an entire book and grade it based on an imputed grading scale... A.I. grading - that can even read from inside the slab - detects restoration - detects pressing....