ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Prince Namor]

On 12/21/2023 at 11:24 PM, VintageComics said:

Dude, we live in an era where our AUTHORITIES, the people who are supposed to be our leaders and examples are openly corrupt. It didn't used to be that way. 

[Mikey C]

On 12/21/2023 at 2:09 PM, Willbert said:

One interesting piece of info eBay could provide is this scammer's buying history. I'm curious if he was too lazy to use a 2nd account for buying his lower grade books used for swapping. Guess if this Hulk 181 is the book then that ebay ID's history would be helpful if any official investigation is undertook.

While it would def be helpful, he’s claimed books on Instagram (ASM300 9.6 newsstand via Grailz on 10/23 for example) and who knows what other avenues….conventions, Facebook marketplace, Craigslist. None of those would have a paper trail (or GPA) and really makes this all more difficult. 

[mephistopheles]

On 12/21/2023 at 3:11 PM, Heronext said:

Cost of a reholder will increase and it will include a cursory check for obvious shenanigans but not a regrade.

Aren't they already supposed to  be doing that? 

[VintageComics]

On 12/21/2023 at 1:16 PM, DC# said:

Respectfully disagree.  

The amount of white on the right can change depending on how the spine is positioned in the holder, if the spine is moved at all (like a spine roll) or the spine can move with just a simple pressing. The rest of the matching defects are the real tell. 

[Point Five]

Guys, CGC has finally posted their official response. This comes from the top,
 

Spoiler

 

[Axelrod]

So, again, as far as any liability is concerned, the only way anything happens is if - for example - the guy who bought the blue label Hulk "9.0." which was originally a "qualified 8.5" was to attempt to bring charges against the guy who sold him the book.  He could theoretically do this because of someone fraudulently selling him what was, essentially, a fake.  

Problem for him right now is, he has no idea who this guy is.  Guy has an ebay account.  Maybe an Instagram account.  Things which are anonymous and easily changed.  Guy probably also lives in a completely different State from him.  

CGC, however, has this information.  CGC presumably knows exactly who this person is, and has their actual name/address/contact information.  Ebay might as well, I suppose. 

CGC has to disclose this info. before anything criminal could even begin to happen, I think.  Which they probably won't do unless they get a subpoena from a Court.  

[paqart]

On 12/21/2023 at 1:56 PM, Prince Namor said:

Yes. I do have an idea. And what you wrote isn't the way it's going to happen. 

Well, we may have a disagreement then. As I see it, CGC's reaction to this is almost (not quite) irrelevant. The same is true of eBay. I believe that is where we disagree. Because you may think that eBay and CGC can control this. I don't think they can. Here's why:

1) We are looking at multiple federal crimes. That requires law enforcement action to protect the public, even if CGC and eBay are willing to pay off the bilked customers to go away.

2) Some of the people who paid high dollar values for these comics will have insured their collections. If they manage to get an insurance payout for any of these, the insurance company will go after CGC and maybe the seller's venue.

3) A law enforcement action is required even if none of the parties directly involved report it. This is the same as someone spotted selling fake Rolexes in New York. You don't have to be a customer to report the guy to the police. If they discover a complaint is legit, they will arrest, even without knowledge of who any of the customers were.

4) I believe it is likely this has already been reported to law enforcement who has read about it on this forum. Based on that, I think it is likely this is already being investigated by the authorities, regardless of CGC/eBay's interests.

5) The service CGC provides is very similar to minting money. I wouldn't be surprised if comics are used the same way art is among criminal organizations to launder money. The potential for organized crime involvement here is serious enough that all by itself, warrants a full rectal exam by law enforcement.

Speaking of organized crime, look at the money and time that have to go into this, not to mention organization. It takes time to get through the grading and selling process. Whoever did this had to lay out serious money, possibly in excess of $100k, and then wait months before he could realize a profit. Not too many normal people or small time crooks would do that. A criminal organization would.

[VintageComics]

On 12/21/2023 at 1:53 PM, skybolt said:

For example, I remember a Youtuber previously asking CGC if he could re-holder a previously graded newsstand edition and get the newsstand designation, and was told that they can't do that without regrading the book. In this scenario the newsstand designation was actually in plain site vs. in the middle of the book like the Mark Jeweler insert.

Can someone verify if what I said above is true?

This is how I understood it as well, and argued as such for the first 20 pages (that the book would need to be inspected to verify the MJ insert before adding the designation on the label).

That may have changed with cost cutting or reducing turnaround times, but I was under the same impression as you on this. 

[waaaghboss]

On 12/21/2023 at 11:17 AM, DoctorWyoming1 said:

I could roll with that. I'd also be happy to see them roll out a revamped case for the 'big boy books'. If you're already putting down 3% of FMV they should toss in a better case than the one they give you for Super Villain Team Up 7 in 4.5

I'm surprised they haven't gone the 90s route with hologram and glow in the dark cases

  They just skipped right to variant labels

[WestcoastDAVEngers]

Just want to pop in here and thank ya'll.

Before the scumbag took all his listings down, did anyone snag hi-res photos of the xmen 266 or the ASM 238 ? They are no longer on ebay because he killed the auction a day or so before the end.

[JC25427N]

On 12/21/2023 at 2:23 PM, Axelrod said:

 

Problem for him right now is, he has no idea who this guy is.  Guy has an ebay account.  Maybe an Instagram account.  Things which are anonymous and easily changed.  Guy probably also lives in a completely different State from him.  

 

Wouldn't he have the return address on the package? (assuming he actually received it)

[VintageComics]

On 12/21/2023 at 2:02 PM, Bo1983 said:

Check automatic comics YouTube page it could be thousands of books!

Can you summarize the video? I'm kind of tired of watching a bunch of fanboys lathering each other up while spreading 10 mins of information into 2 hours.

If this guy was REHOLDERING 1000's of books, that would be an obvious flag so I'd like to see some proof of this rather than just guess like this. 

[paqart]

On 12/21/2023 at 2:23 PM, Axelrod said:

So, again, as far as any liability is concerned, the only way anything happens is if - for example - the guy who bought the blue label Hulk "9.0." which was originally a "qualified 8.5" was to attempt to bring charges against the guy who sold him the book.  He could theoretically do this because of someone fraudulently selling him what was, essentially, a fake.  

Problem for him right now is, he has no idea who this guy is.  Guy has an ebay account.  Maybe an Instagram account.  Things which are anonymous and easily changed.  Guy probably also lives in a completely different State from him.  

CGC, however, has this information.  CGC presumably knows exactly who this person is, and has their actual name/address/contact information.  Ebay might as well, I suppose. 

CGC has to disclose this info. before anything criminal could even begin to happen, I think.  Which they probably won't do unless they get a subpoena from a Court.  

I would be surprised if the police don't already know who it is.

[Bo1983]

Buy raw books nuff said!

[WestcoastDAVEngers]

On 12/21/2023 at 11:26 AM, VintageComics said:

Can you summarize the video? I'm kind of tired of watching a bunch of fanboys lathering each other up while spreading 10 mins of information into 2 hours.

If this guy was REHOLDERING 1000's of books, that would be an obvious flag so I'd like to see some proof of this rather than just guess like this. 

You salty, my man

[Willbert]

On 12/21/2023 at 2:19 PM, Mikey C said:

While it would def be helpful, he’s claimed books on Instagram (ASM300 9.6 newsstand via Grailz on 10/23 for example) and who knows what other avenues….conventions, Facebook marketplace, Craigslist. None of those would have a paper trail (or GPA) and really makes this all more difficult. 

Very true. I had forgotten about the ASM 300 talk.

Thus if I was CGC I'd be trying to identify all the books submitted for reholder under this scammer's account or accounts and then trying recover as many of those as possible. Even consider publishing a list of suspected tampered books at some point in the future. But that would probably just make the books infamous and thus even more collectible. 

[Axelrod]

On 12/21/2023 at 2:26 PM, JC25427N said:

Wouldn't he have the return address on the package? (assuming he actually received it)

I mean, maybe?  A professional scammer though - which this guy seems to be - is not going to be using his own personal name/address for his business transactions.  He's going to be using his business/a P.O. Box, etc.  

[Bo1983]

On 12/21/2023 at 2:29 PM, Axelrod said:

I mean, maybe?  A professional scammer though - which this guy seems to be - is not going to be using his own personal name/address for his business transactions.  He's going to be using his business/a P.O. Box, etc.  

The real question how many could it be?

[Prince Namor]

On 12/22/2023 at 2:23 AM, paqart said:

Well, we may have a disagreement then. As I see it, CGC's reaction to this is almost (not quite) irrelevant. The same is true of eBay. I believe that is where we disagree. Because you may think that eBay and CGC can control this. I don't think they can. Here's why:

That's not what I'm saying. I don't see eBay suing CGC over it. 

On 12/22/2023 at 2:23 AM, paqart said:

1) We are looking at multiple federal crimes. That requires law enforcement action to protect the public, even if CGC and eBay are willing to pay off the bilked customers to go away.

2) Some of the people who paid high dollar values for these comics will have insured their collections. If they manage to get an insurance payout for any of these, the insurance company will go after CGC and maybe the seller's venue.

3) A law enforcement action is required even if none of the parties directly involved report it. This is the same as someone spotted selling fake Rolexes in New York. You don't have to be a customer to report the guy to the police. If they discover a complaint is legit, they will arrest, even without knowledge of who any of the customers were.

4) I believe it is likely this has already been reported to law enforcement who has read about it on this forum. Based on that, I think it is likely this is already being investigated by the authorities, regardless of CGC/eBay's interests.

5) The service CGC provides is very similar to minting money. I wouldn't be surprised if comics are used the same way art is among criminal organizations to launder money. The potential for organized crime involvement here is serious enough that all by itself, warrants a full rectal exam by law enforcement.

I still don't see eBay suing CGC over it.

On 12/22/2023 at 2:23 AM, paqart said:

Speaking of organized crime, look at the money and time that have to go into this, not to mention organization. It takes time to get through the grading and selling process. Whoever did this had to lay out serious money, possibly in excess of $100k, and then wait months before he could realize a profit. Not too many normal people or small time crooks would do that. A criminal organization would.

It's very possible. Or the guy could've started out doing this slowly with smaller books and as he got better at it, just continued to take bigger risks. Remember, when he does this, he actually ends up with TWO of the same high dollar books, the one being the fake and the other being the original.

[DC#]

On 12/21/2023 at 11:29 AM, Axelrod said:

I mean, maybe?  A professional scammer though - which this guy seems to be - is not going to be using his own personal name/address for his business transactions.  He's going to be using his business/a P.O. Box, etc.  

Never underestimate people's carelessness or stupidity.   Probably the most common way most crooks are captured.