ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[BrianR]

Thing is this is just the books that were sent for reholdering.  You have to realize that the whole slabbing resale has been compromised.  Every book that has a high price disparity between say a 9.4 and 9.8 is subject to this scam. Why send in for reholdering which is how this guy was caught. Simply crack open the slab slide in the new lower grade copy reseal and sell that.  Submit the other book raw later. You can literally have a couple seed copies to get the 9.8 label and a large amount of lesser graded comics to repeat the process over and over as you get the newly slabbed books back. Example look at Star Wars 1 a ton of copies graded out there and the price difference is a pretty large.

[Dark Knight]

On 12/28/2023 at 8:12 AM, Buzzetta said:

On 12/28/2023 at 8:10 AM, BrashL said:

I don't think changes to the case of that nature are the answer anyway, it just creates a new arms race and no system is unbreakable, at least not at a cost that makes the business viable. The solution here is pretty simple actually and I hope they implement something similar:

• Every book gets Grader Notes, every single one (OK maybe not a 10)
• Every single book gets a high res picture front and back
• Every note related to the cover or back of the book is annotated in the picture, with the defect circled, marked, whatever

Essentially create a unique fingerprint for every comic, which is essentially what this board has been doing for a week now. Not only do you ensure the integrity of the slab, you ensure the integrity of the grade itself. This would take a little more time, but to be honest this is the bare minimum of what a grader should be doing now considering how much value they are adding (or subtracting) from a book. If they did this, I could care less how easy the case is to open. 

This is most likely the way to go.   Hi resolution scans of both front and back showcasing indicators might be the only viable solution. 

Now, the next step is to improve the wifi and the cellular problems at shows  

This absolutely can be done. The video game grading company WATA has been doing this since they first started grading games. They would take pre-grading pictures (if it is an open box) of the game itself, box, any posters or inserts if available, etc. front and back. If the game is sealed, they take pictures front, back, and all sides. I believe only the original submitter can view the pre-grading pictures.

If WATA can do it with more components coming from a game, then CGC absolutely can. CGC can also include specific pictures of any special inserts like a MJ or maybe the section where a missing page was.

[paqart]

On 12/28/2023 at 12:53 PM, Buzzetta said:

You shouldn't.  From what I know, you are not pursuing the high value rare variant 9.8's from 40 years ago.  No one is targeting next month's 1:25 retailer variant Batman comic in a 9.8 to run a scam with. 

Well, I do have 3 copies of X-Men 266 (newsstand), a bunch of ASM 298's, 299's, and 301's, and some other keys from that time period, most in slabs. None are 9.8, but they are 9.4-9.6. I have maybe a dozen 9.8's, but they are all modern newsstands, like ASM 30 and Supergirl 50, Black Panther 1, etc. I also have about 20-25 MJI comics, the most valuable one is a 9.4-9.6 Avengers 196 that I bought in a group of other MJI comics. None of these are slabbed.

[namisgr]

On 12/28/2023 at 11:48 AM, Buzzetta said:

There are bigger issues.  There have been some recent car thefts across the area where people are utilizing the RFDI chips in your car keys and bouncing a signal to their reader on an iPad that then uses that signal to "duplicate" the key and effortlessly start the car. 

I cannot imagine them scanning your home looking for the car key signal only to find that you have a copy of a high valuable collectible in the home worth more than the car.  They will be back the next night with a moving van. 

The thing about RFID technology is that the signals only travel a very short distance before they become undetectable.  Where I see it used all the time is on broadcasts of poker games.  Each card of the deck has a unique RFID identifier, but for the signals to be picked up so the broadcast can show (on a delay) the hole cards of each player, the cards must be placed in spots on the table with RFID readers in them just under the felt.  The readers can then detect a player's hole cards, but not the cards of the people sitting at any other seat, including those sitting to their immediate left or right.

So no worries about RFID chips being used to track the whereabouts of a person, or in this case of a comic slab, as the chip in the slab would need to be placed right next to a reader for the reading to work.

[paqart]

On 12/28/2023 at 12:57 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Let’s not forget about the green label Hulk 181s….

The key is that there is something between the covers that affects value. Either positively (MJI) or negatively (missing MVS or page). These are nearly or entirely invisible when slabbed.

[BrashL]

On 12/28/2023 at 12:34 PM, VintageComics said:

Not quite a 'guy trying something in his garage'. Apparently he's a chemist by trade? Most people don't even know what Xylene is, well they didn't until he posted that video publicly.

I mean he used a $50 dollar heat gun and some plastic solvent, that’s basically garage supplies. Nothing about what he showed is hard or expensive. 

[Buzzetta]

On 12/28/2023 at 2:08 PM, Dark Knight said:

This absolutely can be done. The video game grading company WATA has been doing this since they first started grading games. They would take pre-grading pictures (if it is an open box) of the game itself, box, any posters or inserts if available, etc. front and back. If the game is sealed, they take pictures front, back, and all sides. I believe only the original submitter can view the pre-grading pictures.

If WATA can do it with more components coming from a game, then CGC absolutely can. CGC can also include specific pictures of any special inserts like a MJ or maybe the section where a missing page was.

I am very unfamiliar with WATA grading.  Do they ever x-ray games to make sure that all inserts are inside to make sure nothing was tampered with or it was resealed by the store?  I have mentioned this with VHS Grading.  When I worked for Disney in the 90's we would take any VHS cassettes that people unsuccessfully tried to shoplift.  We would put most of it back together and we had an "official" shrink wrap machine back there with the Disney logo stuff.

[Buzzetta]

On 12/28/2023 at 2:11 PM, paqart said:

The key is that there is something between the covers that affects value. Either positively (MJI) or negatively (missing MVS or page). These are nearly or entirely invisible when slabbed.

I thought you could see the MJI when holding the slab vertically or at least the gap it creates?

I have never owned a book with a MJI but there were a couple of ASM issues in the early 2000's that had inserts for various things and you can tell from looking at the book that it exists within the book. 

[Dark Knight]

On 12/28/2023 at 11:13 AM, Buzzetta said:

On 12/28/2023 at 11:08 AM, Dark Knight said:

This absolutely can be done. The video game grading company WATA has been doing this since they first started grading games. They would take pre-grading pictures (if it is an open box) of the game itself, box, any posters or inserts if available, etc. front and back. If the game is sealed, they take pictures front, back, and all sides. I believe only the original submitter can view the pre-grading pictures.

If WATA can do it with more components coming from a game, then CGC absolutely can. CGC can also include specific pictures of any special inserts like a MJ or maybe the section where a missing page was.

Expand  

I am very unfamiliar with WATA grading.  Do they ever x-ray games to make sure that all inserts are inside to make sure nothing was tampered with or it was resealed by the store?  I have mentioned this with VHS Grading.  When I worked for Disney in the 90's we would take any VHS cassettes that people unsuccessfully tried to shoplift.  We would put most of it back together and we had an "official" shrink wrap machine back there with the Disney logo stuff.

No they don't x-ray the game to see the contents inside. Because the box of the game comes as being opened already (CIB), the person taking the pre-grading photos can remove the inserts inside and take pictures. 

Also WATA and I'm sure the other video game companies can also tell whether the game was originally shrink-wrapped from the manufacturer or if it was a re-seal. There is a specific way on how these games were sealed back then that any person who has been in that hobby for years can tell whether it's factory sealed or re-sealed.

[wiparker824]

On 12/28/2023 at 12:12 PM, BrashL said:

I mean he used a $50 dollar heat gun and some plastic solvent, that’s basically garage supplies. Nothing about what he showed is hard or expensive. 

Yep. Literally everything used is at any hardware store. These aren’t some top secret chemist tools used, even though we all probably wish it was that difficult. It appears it is not. 

[Mikey C]

On 12/28/2023 at 1:56 PM, lostboys said:

I also dont think CGC can completely seal the cases because if they are airtight, over time that would affect the comic...no?

 

This is why I was confused about CGC not changing the inner wells during reholders. 

I read somewhere that CGC recommended changing the cases every 8-10 years…something about the micro chamber paper they put inside books and gases the books give off as they break down slowly over time. 

If they’re just reusing the inner well than what’s the point of the micro chamber paper inside the actual books? I cracked a low-value ASM 330 to keep raw and it had two piece of the paper inside. Maybe for gases? Who the F knows. 

[Dark Knight]

When it comes to providing better security measures for slabbed books, I think the book's graded serial number should be etched on all four sides of the inner well. So if say someone were to compromise the outer shell and try to make a swap and re-grade, well cgc can look at the etching and see if it matches the serial number on the label.

If one were to try and remove the book from the inner well, then they would need to cut over the serial number. 

Just an idea

[Dark Knight]

On 12/28/2023 at 9:25 AM, Buzzetta said:

Is the Jordan rookie still the most counterfeited card?  I remember being incredibly nervous when I had mine graded. 

Yup! Sadly it is! I actually had a Jordan RC that was a both a counterfeited card AND a fake PSA slab holder. Everything about it looks real until someone found pictures of the original card with the original holder of it in the PSA archives.

[brute_nm]

On 12/28/2023 at 12:42 PM, Dark Knight said:

Yup! Sadly it is! I actually had a Jordan RC that was a both a counterfeited card AND a fake PSA slab holder. Everything about it looks real until someone found pictures of the original card with the original holder of it in the PSA archives.

Sounds familiar!

[Dark Knight]

On 12/28/2023 at 9:32 AM, Mr. Zipper said:

On 12/28/2023 at 9:25 AM, Buzzetta said:

Is the Jordan rookie still the most counterfeited card?  I remember being incredibly nervous when I had mine graded. 

Jordan is probably near or at the top. I am not a card collector, but I watch the market. They are even faking the high tech refractor cards, uniform swatch cards, etc etc. and the fakes are so good they are getting past PSA on occasion

Yup! Even con artists easily removing an original game worn jersey piece of a card and replacing it with an actual jersey patch from a jersey you buy off a store to boost its value.

[DoctorWyoming1]

On 12/28/2023 at 11:01 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

I’m curious how many potential  CGC consumers are even aware of this situation?  

Let's not forget that most potential CGC consumers are not dropping thousands of dollars on one slab. Most people are safe as their purchases fall well below what would interest a scammer. 

[wombat]

I don't think its unreasonable that scammers would move to lesser priced books to avoid scrutiny. I'm not saying $100 books. But less than what we have seen. 

[MAR1979]

On 12/28/2023 at 2:51 PM, wombat said:

I don't think its unreasonable that scammers would move to lesser priced books to avoid scrutiny. I'm not saying $100 books. But less than what we have seen. 

At what threshold is Risk+Expenses > Profit ?  I'm asking not stating...

[Buzzetta]

On 12/28/2023 at 2:46 PM, Dark Knight said:

Yup! Even con artists easily removing an original game worn jersey piece of a card and replacing it with an actual jersey patch from a jersey you buy off a store to boost its value.

To me that is just stupid. (Replacing those) Most of those cards offer a small swatch is indistinguishable from modern design.  I always thought you were paying for the presentation.  

Edited December 28, 2023 by Buzzetta

[Iconic1s]

On 12/28/2023 at 1:12 PM, BrashL said:

I mean he used a $50 dollar heat gun and some plastic solvent, that’s basically garage supplies. Nothing about what he showed is hard or expensive. 

And he wasn’t even trying that hard. He admitted that he would use masking tape next time, could buff it out, and a few other things for it to turn out better.

This was his first attempt and it went pretty well!