ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Sigur Ros]

On 12/29/2023 at 8:49 AM, lostboys said:

Has CGC ever stated the slabs were tamper proof?

No one can advertise tamper-proof.  It's just not realistic.

Tamper-evident is the best they can advertise.  I do not know the answer to your question though.

[ShaggyB]

On 12/29/2023 at 8:07 AM, CGC Mike said:

Hi

I have not been informed about any e-blast at this time.  

Happy new year Mike, thanks for chime'n in. If you do hear anything you can share, please do

[HotKey]

On 12/29/2023 at 8:49 AM, lostboys said:

 

Has CGC ever stated the slabs were tamper proof?

 

From the website verification page:

"This tool can help you verify that your CGC holder is genuine and has not been tampered with."

[DougC]

On 12/29/2023 at 7:51 AM, Sigur Ros said:

No one can advertise tamper-proof.  It's just not realistic.

Tamper-evident is the best they can advertise.  I do not know the answer to your question though.

well they also boldly advertise "crystal­-clear plastic’s superior optics unleash a comic’s true color and vibrancy" but tell people to kick rocks when they complain about newton rings. I wouldn't put it past CGC to claim some type of tamper-resistant secure case.

[ShaggyB]

On 12/29/2023 at 8:51 AM, Sigur Ros said:

No one can advertise tamper-proof.  It's just not realistic.

Tamper-evident is the best they can advertise.  I do not know the answer to your question though.

'The idea of Absolute Security is a myth. To think that it is possible is to invite in certain doom.'

Its that simple.

Nothing cgc does will ever be 100%, someone with time and desire will find a way.

The trick is in how you handle it when it occurs. How fast do you respond, what changes do you identify and how quickly do you release info to your customer base / how do you make those impacted whole?

They are at half a month now with it getting a bit worse every day with the exposure potential. The question is what do they do about it and when.... 

Edited December 29, 2023 by ShaggyB

[sledgehammer]

On 12/29/2023 at 7:51 AM, Sigur Ros said:

No one can advertise tamper-proof.  It's just not realistic.

Tamper-evident is the best they can advertise.  I do not know the answer to your question though.

We still don't know that they aren't tamper evident to CGC, other than times when they are sent in for reholders.

Thus, the potential "loophole".

If I send in an 8.0 in a badly enough damaged holder, that requires re grading, they might be able to look at it closely enough in re grading to determine the slab has previously been opened.

We don't know yet.

[trademarkcomics]

On 12/29/2023 at 5:35 AM, Mephisto said:

Not according to George…

It looks like I have competition in the gif dept! 

[sledgehammer]

If there is a way to determine "tamper evident" they should tell us.

[agamoto]

On 12/29/2023 at 5:15 AM, namisgr said:

He's been selling that long, and given how chock full of information this thread has become I may have missed it, but are there examples of the tampering going back that far, or just the perp's selling?

The opening of outer wells and sliding in and out of inner wells at will seems especially tied to the newest slab iteration.  And the reholdering as a major piece of the scam is also of relatively recent vintage, as new problems such as Newton Rings and lousy quality control have become especially acute only over the past few years.

I'm hoping, anyway, the tampering scheme is a relatively recent phenomenon, or at least the sheer volume of examples will prove to be.

No, there are not any examples I'm aware of. The major problem with confirming any older swaperoo is a lack of any census certified book images prior to 8/1/2022 to compare to. There are some from July I've seen, but Aug 1, 2022 was the official announcement they'd be showing images.

It is still possible to find images on sites like GoCollect and Worthpoint for older books, but they are not as high of quality and the differences between an original and swapped comic would need to be quite pronounced to detect them in lower-res photos. 

Anyone who suspects they are a victim of a reholder/relabel scam needs to start by taking an honest assessment of their book. Is their valuable 9.8 objectively no where close to a 9.8, and f so, that's when you can start checking census images, goCollect and Worthpoint images, even Google searches can result in some hits as they did with some of the books sold by Zaneglor/Briva3.

We would all be rather foolish to assume, even without existent evidence yet, that Zaneglor/Briva3 is the only one who's ever swapped innerwells.  

Another member mentioned that this particular scammer has been doing this since 2006. Well, no, we can't know for sure about that, but what we can be sure of is that they've been around selling stuff on eBay since 2006, and that by 2011 their sales records began to show an increase in the sale of the same books, over and over again, far too often for them to be just simple non-paying bidder situations. It would appear that throughout the 2010's, he was possibly shill bidding on his own books and putting them back on the market a few months later. I cannot prove it conclusively, but I believe his ebay sales are an exercise in price setting/manipulation. 

Unfortunately there's little to no way for any of us to track his sales via instagram or facebook or comiclink, or anywhere else he may have been selling stuff. That includes any of CGC's private investigators as other venues could not be legally compelled to produce records by an authoritative law enforcement body. 

[wiparker824]

On 12/29/2023 at 6:49 AM, lostboys said:

 

 

Has CGC ever stated the slabs were tamper proof?

 

Getting a book graded and slabbed is pretty affordable and as the saying goes: "You get what you pay for"

 

What exactly are we asking for here? ...to pay $100+ for a tamper proof slab?

 

I dont think CGC was founded as a comic book flipping company but as a company that would grade and slab your most valuable comics.

 

We kinda turned it into what it is today.

 

 

 

No, not quite. They do guarantee however that the book is what they say it is and authentic as long as your holder is intact and doesn’t violate this clause:

“This Guarantee does not apply to Collectibles that have been removed from a CGC or CSG holder, or if the CGC or CSG holder containing a Collectible has been damaged, unsealed, tampered with, or altered. The determination as to whether this has occurred shall be at the sole reasonable discretion of Guarantor. Further, this Guarantee does not apply to counterfeit or tampered CGC or CSG holders”

However for those affected by the reholder swap they bough slabs that were likely in mint condition after the reholder but the contents were not authentic to what the label said. Hence CGC’s guarantee not being upheld and why CGC is liable to resolve these cases. Which is what they’ve said they plan to do in their statement.

But if you’re going to make a guarantee like this in the first place one would assume that the holders are not able to be cracked and put back together without being detectable.

So no they don’t guarantee tamper proof, but they are kind of saying if you do tamper with the holder they’d know, as that’s the only way you’d make such a guarantee. Which apparently is not true. 

 

[ShaggyB]

On 12/29/2023 at 9:04 AM, wiparker824 said:

No, not quite. They do guarantee however that the book is what they say it is and authentic as long as your holder is intact and doesn’t violate this clause:

“This Guarantee does not apply to Collectibles that have been removed from a CGC or CSG holder, or if the CGC or CSG holder containing a Collectible has been damaged, unsealed, tampered with, or altered. The determination as to whether this has occurred shall be at the sole reasonable discretion of Guarantor. Further, this Guarantee does not apply to counterfeit or tampered CGC or CSG holders”

However for those affected by the reholder swap they bough slabs that were likely in mint condition after the reholder but the contents were not authentic to what the label said. Hence CGC’s guarantee not being upheld and why CGC is liable to resolve these cases. Which is what they’ve said they plan to do in their statement.

But if you’re going to make a guarantee like this in the first place one would assume that the holders are not able to be cracked and put back together without being detectable.

So no they don’t guarantee tamper proof, but they are kind of saying if you do tamper with the holder they’d know, as that’s the only way you’d make such a guarantee. Which apparently is not true. 

 

Well said. 

[agamoto]

On 12/29/2023 at 5:11 AM, SpiderParker said:

I think it literally is that easy to get into the cases.  Go get and look at one of your newer cases.  There is only one 2" or so section that looks sonically welded.  The entire bottom edge is just held in place by the 2 corner posts.  Who knows of they are sonically welded or just snap bit heat definitely makes them come apart with ease as shown in his video.

As part of R&D of the case how is a heat gun / source not part of your research?  Seems like the first logical thing anyone would try if they had ill intentions.  Just seems negligent and lazy on CGC's part.  Part of R&D should be this.  Have a 3rd party or anyone for that matter try to tamper with it and you see the results.  A "real world" test before you release it to the masses.  If someone can tamper with a case and hand it back to you and you can't tell the difference then that's a problem.  

I feel CGC needs to take better action.  They literally have no idea how deep this goes.  They can't just focus on one bad apple and think there aren't any others.  They should immediately stop all holdering until they have a new case design or a new and improved way of sealing their existing case that's been TESTED.  Then release what improvements they've made.   This will literally keep happening forever given the millions of cases out there.  Lastly, they need to have a voluntary recall on their slabbed books.  This will never happen but it needs to happen.  This is like any company that has a defective product doing a recall.  Yeah, it's costly but do you want to acknowledge and give people the opportunity to get rid of the problem or turn your head and keep dealing with this for years to come?  Not everyone would take part in said recall.  If they still own the books they sent in for grading they know they are fine, however if a person ever decides to sell and it's not in the new case then it could hurt the resale value because who k ows how thos will affect the hobby.  This is a horrible situation for CGC to be in but they put themselves in this with lack of security features in their cases.

I agree, at its essence, these grading companies are selling a security product. An owner of a blue label book is supposed to be secure in the knowledge that his treasured comic is protected, not restored, and the grade at least two "professionals" say it is.

I'd say the trust in that security isn't completely destroyed, but it's cracked and holding together just as badly as the cracks along the seams of their weakest cases.

[trademarkcomics]

On 12/29/2023 at 5:55 AM, HotKey said:

From the website verification page:

"This tool can help you verify that your CGC holder is genuine and has not been tampered with."

They could put those little white stickers with metal in them that Walmart puts on high theft items. You know the ones that if you try to take them off stab your finger? That way alarms will go off back at CGC if you try to open the case at home and leave you running to the bathroom for a Band-Aid while your house is raided by 20 guys from Virginia! 

 

(Probably cost-prohibitive, however...)

[agamoto]

On 12/29/2023 at 6:09 AM, trademarkcomics said:

They could put those little white stickers with metal in them that Walmart puts on high theft items. You know the ones that if you try to take them off stab your finger? That way alarms will go off back at CGC if you try to open the case at home and leave you running to the bathroom for a Band-Aid while your house is raided by 20 guys from Virginia! 

 

Honestly, the seal around the seams at the sides they have now is essentially performing the same function. A cracked open bottom quadrant is going to have very noticeable light refraction anomalies that do not match the rest of the ultrasonic seal around the case. I'm not sure Dr. Rick's suggested weld fix with a little xylene would be enough to restore that uniform seal.

Edited December 29, 2023 by agamoto

[Mephisto]

On 12/29/2023 at 8:03 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Unfortunately, as just seen with the 252 posted above…every book has become suspect. 

That’s where I am at. I haven’t bought comic books much in the last 15 years. I had been mostly buying art. After selling some art, buying a house, and still having a lot of art to occupy most of the wall space I was looking at adding some CGC comics of books I either had when I was younger or always wanted. Seeing how easy it is for the outer shells to be peeled apart and another well with a different comic slid in I think I’m just going to take a pass since I haven’t really been buying comics much at all for many years.

Around 20 years ago I thought it was kind of ridiculous that the interior wells at the time had the labels inside the top interior well plastic as the comic but the plastic was open at the top so you could just pluck out the labels. Had the labels been sealed along the top edge like the comic it would have made doing the old switcheroo on the old slabs (this may have been the OG labels I am recalling this scenario with) a lot harder. Now it appears it’s just as easy with the label not being housed in the same inner well as the comics. I can’t recall if there was ever a time the label was sealed on all sides of the same interior well plastic that comic was as it’s been so many years. Obviously the inner well is a bit more work to get things in and out of with its seal compared to the outer shell.

[KCOComics]

 

At the risk of sounding like a CGC apologist, it's hard for me to rationalize CGC being at fault.  

As long as there is money to be made, unethical people will be looking for ways to exploit rules for their own benefit. 

It will be near impossible for corporations to stay ahead of every scam. As fast as you change,  the con artists change faster. 

What CGC and any corporation can and should be help accountable for,  is how they react when these scandals occur. 

So far, I have no problem with CGCs response,  but let's see what comes of it. Changes to the case? Changes to the process? Hopefully arrest, persecution and a sincere effort to make victims whole. 

[SpiderParker]

On 12/29/2023 at 9:12 AM, agamoto said:

Honestly, the seal around the seams at the sides they have now is essentially performing the same function. A cracked open bottom quadrant is going to have very noticeable light refraction anomalies that do not match the rest of the ultrasonic seal around the case. I'm not sure Dr. Rick's suggested weld fix with a little xylene would be enough to restore that uniform seal.

It would be interesting to see more videos on this and before and after up close shots of someone taking their time and making it look good.  Actually trying.  

I don't think buyers scrutinize a case like they do the comic inside.  As long as the case is sealed and nothing obvious sticks out, hardly anyone would think twice about any wrong doing.  Collectors focus on looking at their new pretty comic inside.  

[agamoto]

This is purely hypothetical, but from my observation, here's what that seam around the sides SHOULD look like with an unmolested case. 

See those blue/purple lines that run down the sides? 

This is what our perps cases look like. 

 

Notice anything funny about those magic blue lines about 1.5" north of the bottom corners or so? 

The strange thing is, these are supposed to be the imaged books AFTER they've been reholdered, Hmmm.

Am I taking crazy pills?

 

 

[sledgehammer]

On 12/29/2023 at 7:39 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

On 12/29/2023 at 7:35 AM, sledgehammer said:

Someone has mentioned shill bidding evidence from before 2016, but the ebay seller IDs, all tied to this particular radius of NY, seem to have really started around the 2016-17 timeframe.

Latest holder timeframe.

That’s still a long time.  

Just to clarify my mistake.

The ASM 129 9,0 is reportedly sold from one of scamboys multiple, tied to NY radius, ebay sellers- in 2019.

That sale is on GPA. There are no other sales of that cert # reported on GPA before that.

That means scamboy has been at it for close to 5 years.

This again, will certainly not be "a few hundred slabs".

[Gator Guru]

On 12/29/2023 at 9:32 AM, sledgehammer said:

Just to clarify my mistake.

The ASM 129 9,0 is reportedly sold from one of scamboys multiple, tied to NY radius, ebay sellers- in 2019.

That sale is on GPA. There are no other sales of that cert # reported on GPA before that.

That means scamboy has been at it for close to 5 years.

This again, will certainly not be "a few hundred slabs".

What is the reason wht anyone would have more than one ebay account? To commit fraud? Tax purposes? How is it even allowed?

I see ebay sellers change their name all the time and I don’t get that either. Why?