ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[sd2416]

On 12/29/2023 at 8:36 AM, Gator Guru said:

What is the reason wht anyone would have more than one ebay account? To commit fraud? Tax purposes? How is it even allowed?

I see ebay sellers change their name all the time and I don’t get that either. Why?

You can have multiple accounts on ebay.  

 

https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/identity-policies/multiple-accounts-policy?id=4232#:~:text=What are the guidelines%3F,-Allowed&text=Users may have multiple accounts,have more than one account.&text=Registering new accounts or using,limits or other policy consequences.

[sledgehammer]

On 12/29/2023 at 8:36 AM, Gator Guru said:

What is the reason wht anyone would have more than one ebay account? To commit fraud? Tax purposes? How is it even allowed?

It could be family members or business associates with the other ebay accounts.

Fraud is yes, one of the possibilities.

[ShaggyB]

On 12/29/2023 at 9:36 AM, Gator Guru said:

What is the reason wht anyone would have more than one ebay account? To commit fraud? Tax purposes? How is it even allowed?

I see ebay sellers change their name all the time and I don’t get that either. Why?

Well, you can have multiple email accounts... so its not hard to have multiple ebay.

Id say 1 for selling and 1 for buying makes sense for a non-scam reason.... but i have 1... so eh

Edited December 29, 2023 by ShaggyB

[SpiderParker]

On 12/29/2023 at 9:36 AM, Gator Guru said:

What is the reason wht anyone would have more than one ebay account? To commit fraud? Tax purposes? How is it even allowed?

I see ebay sellers change their name all the time and I don’t get that either. Why?

Someone may want more than one of they focus selling.  Like have one account for strictly selling comics, another for thrift store finds and so on.

Change a name could be anything.  You start a business and want to use your same eBay account you've used for years with feedback rather than starting from scratch with zero.  

[Stefan_W]

On 12/29/2023 at 9:36 AM, Gator Guru said:

What is the reason wht anyone would have more than one ebay account? To commit fraud? Tax purposes? How is it even allowed?

I see ebay sellers change their name all the time and I don’t get that either. Why?

I had to change my name there once. What happened is I stopped using Ebay for a few years and when I came back I was no longer able to access my old account. I was forced to create a new account and build up feedback again from scratch, and the new account had to have a different name because the old one was still listed as being taken. 

So stuff happens and it is not always nefarious. 

[Dr. Balls]

On 12/29/2023 at 7:36 AM, Gator Guru said:

I see ebay sellers change their name all the time and I don’t get that either. Why?

I've changed mine several times to be more reflective of what I'm selling. A comics-themed seller name didn't really work while I was selling records or antiquey-type stuff. I would imagine Ebay store branding also plays a part. I can usually recall seller names that are memorable.

[Mephisto]

On 12/29/2023 at 9:59 AM, Dr. Balls said:

I've changed mine several times to be more reflective of what I'm selling. A comics-themed seller name didn't really work while I was selling records or antiquey-type stuff. I would imagine Ebay store branding also plays a part. I can usually recall seller names that are memorable.

Why not just use a catch all name like “Dr. Balls” on eBay?

[Dr. Balls]

On 12/29/2023 at 8:05 AM, Mephisto said:

Why not just use a catch all name like “Dr. Balls” on eBay?

I don't want to be outed in the "Attempted Flip of the Day" thread.

[wombat]

Is CGC's product not worthless if you don't have confidence the book in the slab is the same book that was sent to them and you can't tell the slab was opened up?

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:19 PM, paqart said:

On 12/28/2023 at 9:00 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

This is where I'm with that and the full extent of the law tagline, do they have recourse for prosecution?

As @Iconic1s said astutely, they let it out the door! The only scam or fraud in slight are the grading fees, which don't amount to as much than what cgc will pay in the reimbursement fraud.

They gave it the authentication in the reholder, so I'm thinking lawsuit, which wouldn't involve the FBI but I don't think prosecution  from cgc specifically.

Am I asserting that right? Cause this is where my last couple of pages of rambling were coming from  @MatterEaterLad @pdags slight edit for clarification 

I don't think you are right at all. there are multiple crimes here, interstate commerce, use of the mails, wire fraud, theft by deception, etc, multiplied by how many times it was done. This is a huge criminal case, not a small one. The scammer defrauded customers, but also created financial liability for CGC. CGC has already announced they will make customers whole, I assume by refunding their buy price for the comics. That would likely mean the comic is bought by CGC, so they will have a way to recover some of that money by reholdering and grading them. That isn't a guarantee however, and still represents a loss to CGC.

As I look at this, the scammer is 100% criminally liable for the scam. However, CGC *might* be looked at as partly responsible because their service is to certify and guarantee the authenticity of their holder's contents. However, they were defrauded also, so they might not be considered criminally liable, though they do bear civil liability because the guarantee they are paid for was no good in these cases. Therefore, it wasn't really a guarantee and one could argue the grading fees were elicited due to fraudulent representations. I don't think that is a good argument because the grading fees involved came from the scammer himself. The argument is that by allowing the scam through negligence on their part, the overall value of CGC's guarantee is reduced, thus affecting all customers.

I don't disagree with what you said.... but it isn't what I said.... 

I don't know that cgc was defrauded if they ok'd the reholder, as far "multiple crimes you mentioned" they all happened after CGC okd the slab. They were used to defraud on ebay and buyers, but not with CGC specifically anymore. In court CGC wouldn't be able to testify to any of that is what I mean.

So how can CGC bring criminal prosecution for any of it? That was what I was saying, maybe a lawsuit, but other than the grading fee's cgc is out, they weren't defrauded in too many other ways...

Compared to EBAY who will pass, and the customers, that might do class action once the list of slabs cgc provides is listed, and then there is CGC who is out grading fees. I could see there is a lot of "attempt to fraud" but was looking for clarification is all  

Edited December 29, 2023 by ADAMANTIUM

[wombat]

On 12/29/2023 at 8:07 AM, WolverineX said:

I don't think that it's as bad as we think.  

Once the scammed book is found,  CGC can go through and tag every book submitted under that submission.  I gut feeling is that this is just one or two bad apples... and all of them can be found with CGC records. If this was happening a lot, it would be been noticed a long time ago....  

 

If I was a betting man, there is zero chance CGC is looking beyond the one known bad actor. They will deal with the consequences of that decision if there ever are any. 

[kanti]

On 12/28/2023 at 7:54 PM, William-James88 said:

Yeah that first punisher is an example of that

At least two different scams going (swap and sell &swap and reholder). 

Since not all scam books have been going back to CGC, i.e. simply swapped, CGC's service is rendered useless.  You will now have to look at the book within the slab and decide if you believe the grade.  The whole point of graded comics (for me anyway) was that it avoided the disagreement of the condition of the book.  Now, even you agree it's a 9.0, you don't know if the book is missing a MVS.  

[SpiderParker]

On 12/29/2023 at 10:15 AM, wombat said:

Is CGC's product not worthless if you don't have confidence the book in the slab is the same book that was sent to them and you can't tell the slab was opened up?

Exactly this.  Hence why I think they need to institute a voluntary recall.  If they want to stay the premier grading source for comics they need to take corrective action to get rid of or lessen the problem.     

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/29/2023 at 9:15 AM, ADAMANTIUM said:

I don't disagree with what you said.... but it isn't what I said.... 

I don't know that cgc was defrauded if they ok'd the reholder, as far "multiple crimes you mentioned" they all happened after CGC okd the slab. They were used to defraud on ebay and buyers, but not with CGC specifically anymore. In court CGC wouldn't be able to testify to any of that is what I mean.

So how can CGC bring criminal prosecution for any of it? That was what I was saying, maybe a lawsuit, but other than the grading fee's cgc is out, they weren't defrauded in too many other ways...

Compared to EBAY who will pass, and the customers, that might do class action once the list of slabs cgc provides is listed, and then there is CGC who is out grading fees. I could see there is a lot of "attempt to fraud" but was looking for clarification is all  

This will get lost in the shuffle, but the sellers "multiple crimes" had nothing to do with cgc and more with ebay and those customers, so I didn't see where CGC has any legal right to hang him on most of the "charges".

Even if they tried, they'd only be one party that would need to work with others involved. I don't see CGC being able to bring some of the "prosecution" because most of the "crime" had nothing to do with "CGC specifically"'

anyway it is why I asked, moving on

[MAR1979]

On 12/29/2023 at 9:36 AM, Gator Guru said:

What is the reason wht anyone would have more than one ebay account? To commit fraud? Tax purposes? How is it even allowed?

I see ebay sellers change their name all the time and I don’t get that either. Why?

Always been allowed and in eBay's earlier days all that was needed was an email address to open an account - that's it nothing else was required.

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by MAR1979

[BrashL]

On 12/29/2023 at 9:20 AM, ADAMANTIUM said:

This will get lost in the shuffle, but the sellers "multiple crimes" had nothing to do with cgc and more with ebay and those customers, so I didn't see where CGC has any legal right to hang him on most of the "charges".

Even if they tried, they'd only be one party that would need to work with others involved. I don't see CGC being able to bring some of the "prosecution" because most of the "crime" had nothing to do with "CGC specifically"'

anyway it is why I asked, moving on

I mentioned this about a civil suit but same goes for criminal, CGC does not want to engage in discovery around their process. If I was the scammer I would just say I sent the right books in intact and CGC somehow screwed up and swapped them. Hell, there’s zero evidence that isn’t the case.  

[BrashL]

On 12/29/2023 at 9:24 AM, BrashL said:

I mentioned this about a civil suit but same goes for criminal, CGC does not want to engage in discovery around their process. If I was the scammer I would just say I sent the right books in intact and CGC somehow screwed up and swapped them. Hell, there’s zero evidence that isn’t the case.  

Also think about how this would work. You can’t be prosecuted for general wrongdoing, there has to be a specific incident you prove up. So they would have to pick say one of the Hulk 181s. Now you have to establish chain of custody and put every CGC employee involved on the stand to testify. The defense will be allowed to grill them on the process with yards and yards of discovery in hand. 
 

Long story short there is no legal pursuit of this going anywhere unless one of the scammed buyers pursues it and even then if I was CGC’s lawyer I would do everything I could to keep them out of it. 
 

The story here is the case and process and what CGC will do to restore the integrity of each, full stop.  

[wombat]

The scammer could use the QC thread as evidence. Clear examples of the wrong books being put in slabs. And damage occurring after books were sent in. Its a good point CGC would want nothing to do with that in court. 

[Iconic1s]

On 12/29/2023 at 8:30 AM, agamoto said:

This is purely hypothetical, but from my observation, here's what that seam around the sides SHOULD look like with an unmolested case. 

See those blue/purple lines that run down the sides? 

This is what our perps cases look like. 

 

Notice anything funny about those magic blue lines about 1.5" north of the bottom corners or so? 

The strange thing is, these are supposed to be the imaged books AFTER they've been reholdered, Hmmm.

Am I taking crazy pills?

 

 

Those fractures have become pretty common lately on books I’ve submitted and also anything I bought that was recently slabbed.  First time I encountered them I had 7 of 14 reholders come back with them. I sent them back for ME and about half came back with them again.  I’ve since just started ignoring them.  My theory from close examination is maybe too much pressure during the encapsulation phase. 

[Dr. Balls]

On 12/29/2023 at 8:30 AM, BrashL said:

Also think about how this would work. You can’t be prosecuted for general wrongdoing, there has to be a specific incident you prove up. So they would have to pick say one of the Hulk 181s. Now you have to establish chain of custody and put every CGC employee involved on the stand to testify. The defense will be allowed to grill them on the process with yards and yards of discovery in hand. 
 

Long story short there is no legal pursuit of this going anywhere unless one of the scammed buyers pursues it and even then if I was CGC’s lawyer I would do everything I could to keep them out of it. 
 

The story here is the case and process and what CGC will do to restore the integrity of each, full stop.  

I was thinking about this this morning. For CGC to prove damages (or whatever) - wouldn't they need to have substantial proof of this one person willfully switching books? Like, they'd have to have proof of him purchasing a lower grade book, never leaving his custody, and then proof of him selling the book in a swapped out slab - and selling to someone of authority who could confirm the chain of events leading up to the sale?

I mean, they can't arrest a drug dealer based on someone *seeing* them dealing drugs, right? The act of dealing drugs needs to be witnessed by an authority who has the power to arrest and seize the drugs and create a body of evidence for a future case. I don't know how CGC can do this, or get an official agency to devote time to it?