ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Nick Furious]

On 1/2/2024 at 10:15 PM, Lightning55 said:

If you look up a high value slab that you are considering for purchase, and the pre‐existing photos don't match the comic that is sitting in there now, the seller is busted. That's how this scam got exposed in the first place.

To prevent that, the scammer finds an excuse for a new holder to get the photos on the lookup page to update to what is now in the slab.

I agree, that is also a reason for the laundering.  But I also am not convinced that a switcheroo slab doesn't leave evidence of tampering for those who have reason to look for it.  

[Nick Furious]

On 1/2/2024 at 10:00 PM, fatlab123 said:

No it wasn’t just a $80 slab 

Tell the buyer that you have morals and standards, and you won't commit slab-fraud for anything less than $200.  

[WestcoastDAVEngers]

Not sure if this was posted yet, but I think we've got someone who won't quit...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/285635539914?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=_uMygmInQoK&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=SJUp2xm2Sf6&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

Either it's Briva listing with a consignment or someone taking the photos and listing something they don't have

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 1/2/2024 at 10:54 PM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

Not sure if this was posted yet, but I think we've got someone who won't quit...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/285635539914?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=_uMygmInQoK&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=SJUp2xm2Sf6&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

Either it's Briva listing with a consignment or someone taking the photos and listing something they don't have

Second photo.  It is one of those stolen accounts.  Asking buyers not to bid , but to contact them directly at an email to buy it now. I reported it as I do with all of these. If enough people do they get taken down. They seem to target accounts with good feedback to add legitimacy to the scam.

Edit to add photo:

Edited January 3 by onlyweaknesskryptonite
Add picture of the second scam photo.

[Lightning55]

On 1/2/2024 at 11:22 PM, Nick Furious said:

I agree, that is also a reason for the laundering.  But I also am not convinced that a switcheroo slab doesn't leave evidence of tampering for those who have reason to look for it.  

I'm not convinced either, but also not shocked if it is true that they can't be identified solely by the slab condition.  I would feel bad for the hobby in general, as this aspect that we trusted, can no longer be trusted.

I think everyone would like to take a look at the switched slabs, at least the ones that are proven by photographic evidence to have been switched, to see how good the corners and edges appear after being "worked".  To see if there is anything that gives it away.  If a bunch of people can examine a known scam slab and agree that there is nothing conspicuous about it, that's a hit to the hobby.  At least in the graded sector, to the extent that becomes discovered, e.g. certain target issues, direct lower grade for higher grades swaps, green labels into blue holders.

There is also no way, as someone else pointed out earlier, without photographic evidence or some weakness in the provenance, to identify a slab as a switched one if in fact it does look perfect. Even after cracking and finding a missing MVS, restoration, a missing page, or missing insert, it could be claimed that CGC just missed it at the time of grading. And if you are the one who discovers it when you crack it out for a CPR, for instance, you are left with a scam comic and a cracked case, no way to prove the comic was the one that came out of that specific case.

[drotto]

On 1/3/2024 at 12:03 AM, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

Second photo.  It is one of those stolen accounts.  Asking buyers not to bid , but to contact them directly at an email to buy it now. I reported it as I do with all of these. If enough people do they get taken down. They seem to target accounts with good feedback to add legitimacy to the scam.

Edit to add photo:

I reported it also.  I may be mistaken, but this appears to be a photo of the scam book that started all of this.

[silent06]

On 1/2/2024 at 10:54 PM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

Not sure if this was posted yet, but I think we've got someone who won't quit...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/285635539914?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=_uMygmInQoK&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=SJUp2xm2Sf6&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

Either it's Briva listing with a consignment or someone taking the photos and listing something they don't have

I say this rhetorically, but you have got to be kidding me. It is the same book that prompted this entire thread and the discussion that has ensued.  This guy is no criminal mastermind, not even close to clever or cautious for that matter.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/285589090234?hash=item427e6fafba:g:TIwAAOSwqwplbAkk 

[drotto]

On 1/3/2024 at 12:45 AM, silent06 said:

I say this rhetorically, but you have got to be kidding me. It is the same book that prompted this entire thread and the discussion that has ensued.  This guy is no criminal mastermind, not even close to clever or cautious for that matter.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/285589090234?hash=item427e6fafba:g:TIwAAOSwqwplbAkk 

Granted, it may not be him.  People have been taking other's photos to create fraudulent listings for years.  I posted an account as a scam about 3 months ago that was listing old Heritage photos as books for sale.  This may just be a wild coincidence.  

[DougC]

On 1/2/2024 at 10:54 PM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

Not sure if this was posted yet, but I think we've got someone who won't quit...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/285635539914?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=_uMygmInQoK&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=SJUp2xm2Sf6&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

Either it's Briva listing with a consignment or someone taking the photos and listing something they don't have

It is a compromised account from a scammer; all book photos are from other previous listings. 82k items listed within 4 hours via a script that is ran once they have access to your account.

[Sigur Ros]

On 1/3/2024 at 12:03 AM, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

Second photo.  It is one of those stolen accounts.  Asking buyers not to bid , but to contact them directly at an email to buy it now. I reported it as I do with all of these. If enough people do they get taken down. They seem to target accounts with good feedback to add legitimacy to the scam.

Edit to add photo:

I report these also.  For years now.

But if people report this, make sure to mention it's a stolen account so they don't just shut it down and can try to get it back to the original owner.  100% after 120K sales is hard to lose.

[Sigur Ros]

On 1/3/2024 at 12:45 AM, silent06 said:

I say this rhetorically, but you have got to be kidding me. It is the same book that prompted this entire thread and the discussion that has ensued.  This guy is no criminal mastermind, not even close to clever or cautious for that matter.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/285589090234?hash=item427e6fafba:g:TIwAAOSwqwplbAkk 

It's just a stolen account listing pictures of books they don't have available to sell.  

[Sigur Ros]

On 1/3/2024 at 5:57 AM, Bo1983 said:

When your a millionaire it’s hard to feel stupid 

What about when you can't spell "you're"?

[comicwiz]

On 1/3/2024 at 9:26 AM, Bo1983 said:

Another 181 😂😂😂😂😂😂

I have not been able to connect the dots on this one to add it to the list of green to blue. No original donor matched for that switch.

[Mephisto]

On 1/3/2024 at 9:45 AM, Bo1983 said:

Go read your graded comics 😂😂😂👍

Given your spelling abilities I suggest you read Spidey Super Stories.

[EastEnd1]

On 1/3/2024 at 12:22 AM, Lightning55 said:

I'm not convinced either, but also not shocked if it is true that they can't be identified solely by the slab condition.  I would feel bad for the hobby in general, as this aspect that we trusted, can no longer be trusted.

I think everyone would like to take a look at the switched slabs, at least the ones that are proven by photographic evidence to have been switched, to see how good the corners and edges appear after being "worked".  To see if there is anything that gives it away.  If a bunch of people can examine a known scam slab and agree that there is nothing conspicuous about it, that's a hit to the hobby.  At least in the graded sector, to the extent that becomes discovered, e.g. certain target issues, direct lower grade for higher grades swaps, green labels into blue holders.

There is also no way, as someone else pointed out earlier, without photographic evidence or some weakness in the provenance, to identify a slab as a switched one if in fact it does look perfect. Even after cracking and finding a missing MVS, restoration, a missing page, or missing insert, it could be claimed that CGC just missed it at the time of grading. And if you are the one who discovers it when you crack it out for a CPR, for instance, you are left with a scam comic and a cracked case, no way to prove the comic was the one that came out of that specific case.

I generally agree but I don't think the tampered holder needs to be "perfect" for the scam to fester.  If the after-effects of tampering are very minute, some may catch it but most collectors won't.  Most won't be looking for tampering unless it's conspicuous (though I guess more and more collectors will be looking more carefully as further doctored books are uncovered over time).  Based on the method Immaculate Comics has demonstrated so far, it looks like there are two "tells": one is that the heated pin winds up slightly larger than the unheated pins when viewed from the back cover side; the other is that there is just the slightest separation at the re-sealed tampered corner.  Neither seems very conspicuous, and may still be curable with further experimentation.  I can just imagine the arguments that would ensue between a buyer and seller over tiny anomalies like these.  If buying a graded comic going forward entails the use of say a magnifying glass on a holder, then we've clearly lost something of value... the required use of the magnifying glass means there's been a loss of trust.  And that certainly hurts the hobby... perhaps not all the way back to the wild west of the pre-grading days, but certainly reduced from where we were.   

Btw, this is based on the demonstrations by Immaculate Comics... we still really don't know what the current scammer actually did to the holders. 

     

[Mikey C]

On 1/3/2024 at 9:47 AM, comicwiz said:

I have not been able to connect the dots on this one to add it to the list of green to blue. No original donor matched for that switch.

We def know it was a swap but we may never find the donor book if he bought it via Insta / FB / in person. 

Great work, BTW. Really impressive stuff you’ve been doing. 

[pdags]

On 1/3/2024 at 10:03 AM, EastEnd1 said:

Neither seems very conspicuous

Yeah, it needs to be Tamper Obvious.  That's what CGC needs to solve at this point.

Because of this, I checked my more expensive slabs.  Reality was, I had no idea how to tell if one had been tampered with or not.  One slab was scuffed a little on the bottom and another had a minor crack.  Are these signs of fraud?  I had no idea.  Note, the Grader Notes were inconclusive and there were no images.

Edited January 3 by pdags

[EastEnd1]

On 1/3/2024 at 10:08 AM, pdags said:

Yeah, it needs to be Tamper Obvious.  That's what CGC needs to solve at this point.

Because of this, I checked my more expensive slabs.  Reality was, I had no idea how to tell if one had been tampered with or not.  One slab was scuffed a little on the bottom and another had a minor crack.  Are these signs of fraud?  I had no idea.  Note, the Grader Notes were inconclusive and there were no images.

Yeah, that's my concern... you just can't be sure when your holder has these little anomalies and there will be a new level of uncertainty added to transactions involving graded books.  Uncertainty is never helpful when you're trying to maintain a stable market.  "Tamper Obvious" is an excellent term CGC should be striving for with their re-design.     

Edited January 3 by EastEnd1

[Junkdrawer]

Back in the dawning days of VHS stores renting tapes out. They were expensive and the “unscrupulous” would open/tamper the plastic shell and remove the original and replace it with either a copy, a blank, or whatever. The good guys put a security label that was tamper evident. CGC simply needs a tamper evident sticker. 

[Mephisto]

On 1/3/2024 at 10:32 AM, Junkdrawer said:

Back in the dawning days of VHS stores renting tapes out. They were expensive and the “unscrupulous” would open/tamper the plastic shell and remove the original and replace it with either a copy, a blank, or whatever. The good guys put a security label that was tamper evident. CGC simply needs a tamper evident sticker. 

Are there really good ones? The eBay authentication ones for cards are a joke. I've had ones that I have peeled with no care at all that peeled perfect with no damage to the sticker at all.