CGC Files Lawsuit Against Employees 30 30

[LudaToke]

On 2/8/2024 at 2:41 AM, CHASEnBLUE said:

They should be slabbed and labled a .5 for life....

Too generous a grade.  I think the NG label would be more accurate for them.

[JollyComics]

On 2/6/2024 at 5:46 PM, comicwiz said:

I'm going to address the part I bolded from your comment. I have been waiting for someone to point this fact out. It is the raison d'etre for a third party grader, that is supposed to be impartial, and provide a service of authenticating and grading. Their role is to always be vigilante of someone trying to subvert their system.

As I'm reading through the lawsuit, there are aspects of it that left me scratching my head. Their explanation for "reholders" was absent of some critical information, and that was that even though they generally offer this service to manage issues with defects/cracks/damage from mishandling or shipping, there is a critical part of this process which is that they are in effect validating the book within their systems. Seeing the same book now showing-up in the "certification" look-up in two places, one under the green label cert (8.5) and one as the blue label (9.0) speaks somewhat to what I'm referring to as lacking the safeguards to realize a vulnerability in something like a verification check is what causes a barrier for the consumer to properly vet tampering for themselves.

That function of validating it through a reholder process in the manner I've described acts like a stamp of approval that all checks out, and who is going to contest what CGC says? That was at least until someone discovered the scam that was perpetrated. There is also the detail of missing certain data from the alleged sellers eBay accounts which caught me by surprise, but I am purposely being vague about this because I'm not on their payroll, and we've been told Kroll's got this. So I'll let them think that, despite finding some inaccuracies in the statements they filed. Ultimately though, this does cause me to wonder how they are making things foolproof for catching errors, and deception, when it's been left to the community to do. But even more importantly, when they can't seem to even explain the finer details of things after it's been practically done for them on these boards, especially when it's something as important as filing an injunction against the defendants, who they claim to want to do everything possible to arrest from continuing their alleged wrongdoing.

This "holder tampering" incident has allowed me to realize some things. Namely, that my memory of things that have happened in the past is extremely heightened and sharper than the average person. This may have something to do with the way they've been beleaguered with scandals which didn't instill confidence they would even know anything was happening unless the community here discovered it. Perhaps there's another reason, and other people's absence of memory relates to not worrying about the finer details, because their trust in CGC is implicit and unshakable. Those people may be comfortable with the systems of trust they've been led to believe keep them safe and protected. Maybe there are other reasons which relate to seeing themselves invested in an outcome that will not impact the worth of their collections or inventory. 

Memory is never a perfect recording of events that happen. It can change with time, and I might add that with the practice, priming and revising being helped by changes being made in accordance with each blip and scandal, it may not be possible for the things I see of concern being seen by others. Even if this is what is causing this gap in understanding what's at stake, I hope that people will expect from any grader that they must be prepared for the possibility of people exploiting and subverting their systems. It's not good enough to say not everything is foolproof.

CGC needs to do better. A lot better at leaving no opportunity for error, misuse, or failure.

I believe CGC has learned a lesson for not taking too many books in 2021 and 2022 that had prolonged the time turnaround in over a year (the thieves had perfect opportunities inside CGC).  PSA suspended the submissions for 6 months to allow themselves to catch up all back-orders with integrity. CGC should have learned from PSA.

[mytastebud]

I submitted a ASM 194 during the time these two were swapping. I posted in the Ask CGC with no response. Guess I gonna have to call. 

[The Lions Den]

On 2/4/2024 at 10:41 PM, lou_fine said:

With their current grading system, isn't it 2 or 3 graders involved in the preliminary grading process, but only the Head Grader gets to say what the final grade is, regardless of what the preliminary grades are?    

Ultimately, the finalizer makes the decision on the grade...

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 2/8/2024 at 6:33 PM, The Lions Den said:

I would hope they'd at least pick a different book to play games with---I still have recurring nightmares about that one...  

I feel you. So. Prepare for a  

I bought my hulk 181 slabbed from Dale Robert's cgc 7.5,. It was my first purchase over $500 and it arrived cracked, which Dale paid for reholder back in about 2016. It looks nm but has a semi bad case of foxing that makes it 7.5. I'm still trying to be OK with that and now this new added drama? it is what it be.

The other 2 hulk 181 I've owned were much lower grade and submitted myself.

My asm 300 9.8 I traded one of the lower grade 181 + some cash for, I vaguely remember the boardie, but was such a good even trade at the time it is hard to complain. Again given the drama one may now sell for more, but one may be less stressful

My asm 252 is 2nd gen label 9.6 no worries.

My asm 194 is a cgc 7.5 that my brother bought me raw that I subbed.

It means I haven't had to keep up too much with any lists, but now that there is like 600+ other that aren't on the list? 

Oye! It is what it be.

Time to breathe again will be after any of it sells a long while from now Lord willing 

Edited February 9 by ADAMANTIUM

[ADAMANTIUM]

For laughs we could talk about the ptx slab I bought or summation there of that was 4.5 of #181?

It was purple and green label and a 4.5 and freaking ptx bwhwhwhwhhahahhahahhaha @The Lions Den

[lou_fine]

On 2/6/2024 at 6:25 AM, Tec-Tac-Toe said:

 

 

This message reminds me very much about the time I was visiting my sister in London and we went out for dinner at a restaurant just a few blocks away from the new CCG office that was scheduled to open shortly:  

https://www.cgccomics.uk/news/article/6392/ccg-london-office/

Anyways, conveniently decided to walk past the building to see what it was like and was able to go inside and need I say, very stately and British.  Talked to the gentleman who was in charge of the office as he was setting things up and he was surprised when I mentioned comic books to him and he asked me about them since it was obvious he really knew nothing much about them and the thought of them as collectibles piqued his interest.  Not surprisingly, he said that he expected most of the collectibles which they would see would be pretty much all about coins, paper currency, and bank notes.  

Any bets that this new Tokyo office will also be more about the old boring collectibles stuff and not so much the more new in vogue collectibles like our comic books which we here on the boards love so much.  This is a another example of why I find it kind of silly when some boardies here think that Blackstone paid half a billion dollars for CGC which is only the comic book side of the CCG operations when in reality, CGC is just a small fraction of their total operations albeit a growing one.  

 

 

[Gaard]

On 2/8/2024 at 7:47 PM, The Lions Den said:

Ultimately, the finalizer makes the decision on the grade...

Serious question...

What purpose do the other graders serve?

[jharvey]

On 2/9/2024 at 1:52 AM, lou_fine said:

Any bets that this new Tokyo office will also be more about the old boring collectibles stuff and not so much the more new in vogue collectibles like our comic books which we here on the boards love so much.  

Pokemon cards perhaps?

[The Lions Den]

On 2/9/2024 at 5:13 AM, Gaard said:

Serious question...

What purpose do the other graders serve?

Their duties are many: page counts, restoration checks, preliminary grades, flaws that can often be difficult to detect...the list goes on and on. A good pre-grader can make life much easier for the finalizer...and an element of trust is very important in the grading room.  

[trademarkcomics]

On 2/8/2024 at 6:54 AM, Dr. Balls said:

I’m aiming for 2024 Forumite Of The Year simply based on my avatar.

Got my vote...

[Nick Furious]

On 2/9/2024 at 1:52 AM, lou_fine said:

I find it kind of silly when some boardies here think that Blackstone paid half a billion dollars for CGC which is only the comic book side of the CCG operations when in reality, CGC is just a small fraction of their total operations albeit a growing one

You make a good point.  There are some parts of the collectibles and certification universe where our little pond isn't even known to exist.  The idea that Blackstone is in a panic over hiccups at CGC probably stems from not recognizing that the pond we swim in is not the whole universe.

[Gonzimodo]

On 2/8/2024 at 7:49 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

I feel you. So. Prepare for a  

I bought my hulk 181 slabbed from Dale Robert's cgc 7.5,. It was my first purchase over $500 and it arrived cracked, which Dale paid for reholder back in about 2016. It looks nm but has a semi bad case of foxing that makes it 7.5. I'm still trying to be OK with that and now this new added drama? it is what it be.

The other 2 hulk 181 I've owned were much lower grade and submitted myself.

My asm 300 9.8 I traded one of the lower grade 181 + some cash for, I vaguely remember the boardie, but was such a good even trade at the time it is hard to complain. Again given the drama one may now sell for more, but one may be less stressful

My asm 252 is 2nd gen label 9.6 no worries.

My asm 194 is a cgc 7.5 that my brother bought me raw that I subbed.

It means I haven't had to keep up too much with any lists, but now that there is like 600+ other that aren't on the list? 

Oye! It is what it be.

Time to breathe again will be after any of it sells a long while from now Lord willing 

I'm with you.  I've been holding off on submitting books because of all the craziness with QC issues and scandals, and it's reaching the point where I may not ever submit anything now.  In the list of books I want to submit are ASM 300, Hulk 181, ASM 194 (newsstand), and NM 98 (MJI).  The ASMs are really nice and could potentially hit 9.8 (potentially...), but they'll be staying raw for the foreseeable future.  I'll just keep monitoring the boards and hope things turn around.  

[Dr. Balls]

On 2/9/2024 at 9:36 AM, Nick Furious said:

The idea that Blackstone is in a panic over hiccups at CGC probably stems from not recognizing that the pond we swim in is not the whole universe.

Very true - Blackstone is simply in it for profit margin. When that dips below their preferred return - whether it's slabbed comics, coins or whatever else - it gets sold or dismantled. Pride of ownership - if there ever was one - was sold off long ago.

This group, this board - that is filled to the brim with awesome people is likely one of very few outposts left where people are truly passionate about the hobby and the service CGC provided. Sure, there's FB groups and IG and Reddit, but they are not like this place. The Boards are wonderfully unique, warts and all.

I hope it continues on, but the community as a whole can only take so much shellacking before the passion is diluted.

[CJ Design]

"I hope it continues on, but the community as a whole can only take so much shellacking before the passion is diluted." wise words from the good Doctor.

This is how I feel also...

[marmat]

On 2/8/2024 at 3:54 PM, Dr. Balls said:

I’m aiming for 2024 Forumite Of The Year simply based on my avatar.

You have my vote

[awe4one]

On 2/5/2024 at 1:16 AM, lou_fine said:

From a strict technical POV, not a problem with this as a straight business policy which they would be more than entitled to make, but shouldn't they at least have been transparent and proactively upfront about it and had disclosed it to the collecting base when they first started up.  

Especially since they had made the claim that one of the original tenets for the creation of CGC was to protect the hobby and the collecting base from the scourge of restoration, only to find out retroactively after the fact, that they had changed or fine-tuned their definition of restoration to exclude certain types of what had then been considered to be restorative work at the time.  

More specifically, didn't it take something like close to 5 years before some board detectives here like @MasterChief, @Red Hook, and even Dupchak himself exposed these shenanigans on the boards here through the use of detailed before and after photos of graded books before CGC finally got around to acknowledging what their definition of restoration was comprised of.  Needless to say and without a doubt, in the interim, all of the "insider" friends/dealers and people in the know must have made a ton of money "laundering" what would then still have been considered to be restored books at the time into an unsuspecting marketplace via the use of CGC's unrestored Universal slabs.  

The issue that I have with all of these scandals which we've seen here and the common running theme is that we generally only seem to find out about them retroactively through the hard work of some board detectives here, as opposed to a proactive communications directly from CGC.  

Then again, kudos should also be given to CGC for allowing us to voice our thoughts and opinions on THEIR boards here, whether they be positive or negative when it comes to these controversial issues.  

Don’t forget the revelation that staples can be replaced on comics and not be considered to be restoration.

Jim

[AmazingComics413]

On 2/9/2024 at 3:25 PM, marmat said:

You have my vote

[sd2416]

@CGC Mike and records showing they handled my missing Hulk 181 order?

CGC0123566736

4311710

[CGC Mike]

On 2/12/2024 at 8:48 AM, sd2416 said:

@CGC Mike and records showing they handled my missing Hulk 181 order?

CGC0123566736

4311710

Hi

Can  you please point me to our prior conversations regarding this?  My PM inbox saw around 600 PM's  the last 2 weeks.  Although, I thought we discussed this publicly.   I wanted to review our communications before contacting the team for an update.