Trim JIM in Heritage Auction

[tth2]

I kind of think the owner of the Journey should have told CGC that the book came from Jason. The book made it past them once before.

 

Regardless...the main question is CGC saying they tightened up their processes to carch these Ewert trims after the last fiasco. Apparently, they can't...

 

Jim

Jim, I agree 100% with you on this one.

[Mephisto]

I agree. "sob".

 

Red Hook, I'm confused is that sob mean you're crying, or is that the old "Son of a &*#@!"

[Red Hook]

.....sniff sniff......

[esquirecomics]

I just checked with the owner. The book was resubmitted in Oct. to try for a 9.6 and to check for the trimming that I had suggested to him.

 

Brent, so is this to say that you now don't believe the current owner did anything wrong, i.e., that upon resubmission they specifically informed CGC that this book had passed through Ewert's hands so that CGC would methodically check for trimming?

 

Is there a trust or integrity issue we need to be concerned about with the current owner, at least with respect to this specific book?

[jimm94]

Mark,

 

Brent stated in a previous post that the current owner sent it in through standard submission procedures.

[mica]

Hey, it's just a very small percentage of books, from an isolated incident.

 

We now know how to spot this type of restoration.

 

These trimmed books will be tracked down and removed from the marketplace.

 

There's red and green Jonestown Kool-Aid on the table for those of you who are thirsty.

Good analogy. I'm parched.

[awe4one]

Brent, so is this to say that you now don't believe the current owner did anything wrong, i.e., that upon resubmission they specifically informed CGC that this book had passed through Ewert's hands so that CGC would methodically check for trimming?

 

Is there a trust or integrity issue we need to be concerned about with the current owner, at least with respect to this specific book?

 

I agree the current owner should have revealed the Ewert connection if he didn't...

 

With that said, I think it's minor in regards to the overall problem here. Either CGC can or cannot detect the trimming without prior knowledge of Ewert ties. I'm sure there are many potential Ewert trimmed copies in unsuspecting collectors' hands. These guys, and the hobby at large, need CGC to be able to ID these comics if that's the service they're paying for.

 

Though a digital database is welcomed and needed, it doesn't come near to solving the problem. The trimmer would just work on previously unsubmitted books...

 

CGC said they've tightened their procedures to address this problem...but never released what these measures were despite repeated concerns and questions asking for clarification. The times of taking Steve's answers for granted are over. Concrete answers with follow-up is required. Sad that it's come to this but if these concerns were adequately addressed previously, the scope of the problem and CGC's involvement wouldn't be as magnified as it is today...

 

Jim

[esquirecomics]

Mark,

 

Brent stated in a previous post that the current owner sent it in through standard submission procedures.

 

Ok, I re-read the posts again. Brent had said "I just checked with the owner. The book was resubmitted in Oct. to try for a 9.6 and to check for the trimming that I had suggested to him."

 

So given the subsequent posts to that one, which you refer to, I take it the scenario is as follows:

 

The current owner of this book, who has not been publicly named (but Storms has noted it was a book that was listed for sale on Pedigree Comics, thus it is either owned by Doug Schmell or consigned to his site and Doug knows the identity of the owner), is specifically made aware of the fact that Brent believes the book has been trimmed based on his prior ownership and possession of scanned images.

 

In the hope of obtaining a higher grade through resubmission (), and in order to check Brent's theory, the current owner sends the book to CGC but does NOT inform them that this is a suspected Ewert book. The book is returned in the same condition, i.e., same grade, same blue label. And now the current seller has consigned the book to Heritage.

 

So, the initial and most important question is was the book trimmed? If so, several questions arise.

 

First, why did CGC miss the trimming not once, but twice?

 

Second, what degree of responsibility lies with the current owner? Should he/she have notified CGC of the known Ewert connection? Did the person play fast and loose with the truth in a deliberate attempt to hide the connection through resubmission, i.e., essentially the equivalent of money laundering?

 

Third, given CGC's second review of the book for trimming and the determination that it deserves a blue label, does this debate simply become a question of who the owner had more faith in, CGC or Brent? If so, and I were Brent, I would lose a TON of respect for this owner. Clearly the owner does not have the same level of respect and professionalism that Brent has shown him/her by not disclosing their name publicly. Not sure if I would do the same.

 

BTW, has anyone contacted Schmell to ask him to identify the current owner?

[esquirecomics]

Of course, it is not a big deal if neither Brent nor Schmell nor Heritage nor CGC admit publicly to who the current owner is.

 

I love subpoenas!!!!

 

To the current owner:

[skybolt]

Brent, so is this to say that you now don't believe the current owner did anything wrong, i.e., that upon resubmission they specifically informed CGC that this book had passed through Ewert's hands so that CGC would methodically check for trimming?

 

Is there a trust or integrity issue we need to be concerned about with the current owner, at least with respect to this specific book?

 

I agree the current owner should have revealed the Ewert connection if he didn't...

 

With that said, I think it's minor in regards to the overall problem here. Either CGC can or cannot detect the trimming without prior knowledge of Ewert ties. I'm sure there are many potential Ewert trimmed copies in unsuspecting collectors' hands. These guys, and the hobby at large, need CGC to be able to ID these comics if that's the service they're paying for.

 

Though a digital database is welcomed and needed, it doesn't come near to solving the problem. The trimmer would just work on previously unsubmitted books...

 

CGC said they've tightened their procedures to address this problem...but never released what these measures were despite repeated concerns and questions asking for clarification. The times of taking Steve's answers for granted are over. Concrete answers with follow-up is required. Sad that it's come to this but if these concerns were adequately addressed previously, the scope of the problem and CGC's involvement wouldn't be as magnified as it is today...

 

Jim

 

I agree with your statement.

 

I'd rather CGC come out and say that they can't identify certain types of restoration, and let us deal with this revelation. They should also post this statement on their website so all submitters and CGC buyers/sellers know what they're dealing with. Perhaps, with this information in hand, people will stop paying the obsene multiples for high grade CGC books and adjust their purchases accordingly.

 

I feel like I'm back at work, where certain project managers keep telling you that they've got things under control, but a year later you find out that the whole design is screwed up and the project is over budget. Once the client becomes aware of this situation, they either take away the project from us or sue the consulting firm for damages incurred. I'm not saying this should be the case with CGC, but at some point they HAVE to let us know what they're capabilities are. No one likes to be called out on their mistakes, but it happens to all of us in the workplace, and we have to accept the fault and the consequences that come with it.

[Scheradon]

Ewart is like a cockroach and CGC seems to think by squashing it (Jason) when a guest (us) pointed it out crawling across the dinner table, that their house has now been exterminated. There's always a bunch more hiding and lurking around that aren't out in the open and you have to really clean house to solve the problem.

 

Now, I don't know what they've done or altered behind the scenes, but if their answer to the trimmed books was to just rely on customers to send in their raw or resubbed slabs with a special note to check for Ewart trimming, and meanwhile reverting back to status quo on all the other submissions, then that's a huge problem that was destined to fail. I can't believe that would be the case, but no one knows because there hasn't been any follow up or further details.

 

I know CGC has to be diligent in their efforts and responses but these altered books are up for auction this very minute and some unsuspecting sap could spend hundreds or thousands on a restored book they think is safe because it's sitting behind a blue label.

 

Even a quick response like, "We recognize there are these issues and value your opinions and comments on this matter. We are working hard at sorting through this and will be getting to the bottom of it. We will update you as soon as we know more, Thanks.." I would atleast feel like our concerns are being taken seriously. Instead we got a terse response that basically felt like this was something CGC just wanted to go away and not really deal with cause it was only brought on by complainers and conspiracy theorists who don't like CGC. Furthest thing from the truth. I don't think anybody here wants to see CGC go away, they just want credibility restored to the grading company that we've trusted in the past. That trust has been strained but I think it can be restored with some effort on CGCs part.

[qualitycomix]

The current owner of this book, who has not been publicly named (but Storms has noted it was a book that was listed for sale on Pedigree Comics, thus it is either owned by Doug Schmell or consigned to his site and Doug knows the identity of the owner), is specifically made aware of the fact that Brent believes the book has been trimmed based on his prior ownership and possession of scanned images.

 

In the hope of obtaining a higher grade through resubmission (), and in order to check Brent's theory, the current owner sends the book to CGC but does NOT inform them that this is a suspected Ewert book. The book is returned in the same condition, i.e., same grade, same blue label. And now the current seller has consigned the book to Heritage.

 

So, the initial and most important question is was the book trimmed? If so, several questions arise.

 

First, why did CGC miss the trimming not once, but twice?

 

Second, what degree of responsibility lies with the current owner? Should he/she have notified CGC of the known Ewert connection? Did the person play fast and loose with the truth in a deliberate attempt to hide the connection through resubmission, i.e., essentially the equivalent of money laundering?

 

Third, given CGC's second review of the book for trimming and the determination that it deserves a blue label, does this debate simply become a question of who the owner had more faith in, CGC or Brent? If so, and I were Brent, I would lose a TON of respect for this owner. Clearly the owner does not have the same level of respect and professionalism that Brent has shown him/her by not disclosing their name publicly. Not sure if I would do the same.

 

BTW, has anyone contacted Schmell to ask him to identify the current owner?

Mark,

 

The owner told me that he had just plain forgot that I had told him about this book possibly having a problem and that he would've been happy to return the book to Tom had he known for sure the book was trimmed. The fact that CGC didn't catch it the 2nd time confirmed his suspicion that the book was clean. He didn't tell CGC about the fact that the book came from Ewert, but it was not intentional according to him, just an oversight as he submits many books.

 

And I agree, Mark, that he didn't have faith in my opinion even though he knew the book came from Ewert. I'm very disappointed in this situation for a lot of reasons.

[Scheradon]

The current owner of this book, who has not been publicly named (but Storms has noted it was a book that was listed for sale on Pedigree Comics, thus it is either owned by Doug Schmell or consigned to his site and Doug knows the identity of the owner), is specifically made aware of the fact that Brent believes the book has been trimmed based on his prior ownership and possession of scanned images.

 

In the hope of obtaining a higher grade through resubmission (), and in order to check Brent's theory, the current owner sends the book to CGC but does NOT inform them that this is a suspected Ewert book. The book is returned in the same condition, i.e., same grade, same blue label. And now the current seller has consigned the book to Heritage.

 

So, the initial and most important question is was the book trimmed? If so, several questions arise.

 

First, why did CGC miss the trimming not once, but twice?

 

Second, what degree of responsibility lies with the current owner? Should he/she have notified CGC of the known Ewert connection? Did the person play fast and loose with the truth in a deliberate attempt to hide the connection through resubmission, i.e., essentially the equivalent of money laundering?

 

Third, given CGC's second review of the book for trimming and the determination that it deserves a blue label, does this debate simply become a question of who the owner had more faith in, CGC or Brent? If so, and I were Brent, I would lose a TON of respect for this owner. Clearly the owner does not have the same level of respect and professionalism that Brent has shown him/her by not disclosing their name publicly. Not sure if I would do the same.

 

BTW, has anyone contacted Schmell to ask him to identify the current owner?

Mark,

 

The owner told me that he had just plain forgot that I had told him about this book possibly having a problem and that he would've been happy to return the book to Tom had he known for sure the book was trimmed. The fact that CGC didn't catch it the 2nd time confirmed his suspicion that the book was clean. He didn't tell CGC about the fact that the book came from Ewert, but it was not intentional according to him, just an oversight as he submits many books.

 

And I agree, Mark, that he didn't have faith in my opinion even though he knew the book came from Ewert. I'm very disappointed in this situation for a lot of reasons.

 

Now he has to know for sure, so has he pulled it from the Heritage auction?

[skybolt]

CGC could detect Hammer's work. And obviously the CGB Comic-Keys article was written with the full cooperation of if not outright instigation by CGC (and at least one longtime board member)

 

They've caught some of Jason's work too. Last month, I sent in 5 books that I bought from Jason in the past year. On second look, CGC said 2 of the 5 were trimmed.

 

This is none of my business, and you don't have to answer this question, but are you taking any action with respect to those two trimmed books? Is CGC going to purchase them back since they missed the trimming in the first place? Is Brulato being contacted about the promise he made to refund the money if the books were co-owned by him? Are you taking any legal action against Ewert to get your money back? Or are you basically stuck with these 2 books?

 

I apologize again for being too nosey.

[jimm94]

The owner told me that he had just plain forgot that I had told him about this book possibly having a problem and that he would've been happy to return the book to Tom had he known for sure the book was trimmed. The fact that CGC didn't catch it the 2nd time confirmed his suspicion that the book was clean. He didn't tell CGC about the fact that the book came from Ewert, but it was not intentional according to him, just an oversight as he submits many books.

 

And I agree, Mark, that he didn't have faith in my opinion even though he knew the book came from Ewert. I'm very disappointed in this situation for a lot of reasons.

 

I don't know about you guys, but I would NEVER forget to investigate a book someone told me might have been trimmed. I guess the market is so lucrative for this individual that the potential value loss of a $1,000+ book, and having to return it to Tom for refund was inconsequential to him. Either that, or they didn't really care as long as it happened to sqeak by CGC with a blue label again.

[qualitycomix]

Now he has to know for sure, so has he pulled it from the Heritage auction?

 

Both the owner and I will call Heritage tomorrow. I think there have been other occasions where Heritage has pulled books from their auctions because of Ewert.

[Ghost Town]

This is none of my business, and you don't have to answer this question, but are you taking any action with respect to those two trimmed books? Is CGC going to purchase them back since they missed the trimming in the first place? Is Brulato being contacted about the promise he made to refund the money if the books were co-owned by him? Are you taking any legal action against Ewert to get your money back? Or are you basically stuck with these 2 books?

 

I apologize again for being too nosey.

 

I'm not stuck with the books. Tom is sending me a check for the full purchase price of the books.

[Aman619]

its interesting that CGC did not catch the trimming the 2nd time they graded it. Was this because they were not notified of its Ewert pedigree? What are the chances do you think that having been notified that it WOULD have been PLODDED, or BluePlodded since its now 2006.? I think better than 50/50.

 

If we are to assume that pressing and trimming have always been around, and very hard to spot, it seems to me that it will never go away. Im tempted to blame the current reward (multiples of guide) that each improvement yields...and blame it on CGC slabbing. But, if it was always around, that proves that even the MINOR price bumps it used to bring were incentive enough to trim and press.

 

So the solution isnt price related. And CGC is unable (or unwilling) to seek a detection solution. What does that leave us? Hoping everyone "does the right thing, the golden Rule??"

 

Oy.

[Mephisto]

I personally don't care that the owner didn't ID the book as being once in the hands of Ewart. This just demonstrates the fact that if they don't have an idea to be extra careful looking for resto on a book they might just blow it...several times. It's not like CGC is going to have a heads up when other people chop shop books and send them in for grading.

[mar-vell]

I personally don't care that the owner didn't ID the book as being once in the hands of Ewart. This just demonstrates the fact that if they don't have an idea to be extra careful looking for resto on a book they might just blow it...several times. It's not like CGC is going to have a heads up when other people chop shop books and send them in for grading.

 

Yeah! I agree with ya but i think that Ewert books are the exception for the most part! I am under the impression that whoever is doing these trim jobs is at the top of his "profession" I think the vast majority of trims are caught by CGC. I think it's gotta be someone with alot of practice that probably has developed some new method that makes it reaaly hard to catch--I'm sure many will feel i am just stating the obvious!