Trim JIM in Heritage Auction

[comicwiz]

Books been added to the registry.comicwiz.com; you should be able to quick search it using keyword resub

[garthgantu]

Keep laughing smart guys. If I ever find either one of you lying on the ground in a public place...I'm going to punch you right in the face.

Ive got a stool you can borrow to stand on to do it

 

I'm confused... why would BHD want to stand on a pile of your [embarrassing lack of self-control] ? It wouldn't make him that much taller - would it?

[garthgantu]

It’s irrelevant if a particular submitter knew his book had restoration, and this should make not the slightest difference in how CGC performs its job. CGC’s job does not rely on forthcoming submitters (if all sellers were honest and forthcoming, would we even need a CGC?). CGC relies solely on the talent reviewing the books. CGC’s marketing tells you that it is expert in discovering restoration, implying that you can put your trust in its services. And we do, as proven by the prices we pay to get books slabbed and the higher-than-raw prices paid by us for CGC-slabbed books.

 

Couldn't agree more, LH. I made a similar point back when the Ewert scandal broke... what CGC "rules" did Ewert break? None that I'm aware of. How is Ewert responsible for the trimmed books?

 

I can think of at least one instance where Steve Borock laughingly told me that "we at CGC don't pass judgment on submitters or their books - we just grade 'em. If someone wants to 'alter' a book, we don't pass judgment on that act, we just assign a Purple label if the work that's been done falls into our definition of restoration." He made it seem as though CGC practically enjoyed getting restored books in - that in some way CGC was punishing those attempts to sneak resto work by the CGC graders by taking their money and giving them PLODs.

 

Now that it's clear that even some of the types of restoration that CGC has steadfastly regarded as verboten are capable of sneaking through the resto detection process, they're throwing the book at Ewert? What a joke. Sure, he's lower than whatever's presently stuck to your shoe for doing what he did - but as far as I can tell, CGC has no written policy re: what happens to someone who submits a restored book... apparently, it's a "317 strikes and you're out" policy, and Ewert is simply the first person to trigger it.

[FFB]

It’s irrelevant if a particular submitter knew his book had restoration, and this should make not the slightest difference in how CGC performs its job. CGC’s job does not rely on forthcoming submitters (if all sellers were honest and forthcoming, would we even need a CGC?). CGC relies solely on the talent reviewing the books. CGC’s marketing tells you that it is expert in discovering restoration, implying that you can put your trust in its services. And we do, as proven by the prices we pay to get books slabbed and the higher-than-raw prices paid by us for CGC-slabbed books.

 

Couldn't agree more, LH. I made a similar point back when the Ewert scandal broke... what CGC "rules" did Ewert break? None that I'm aware of. How is Ewert responsible for the trimmed books?

 

Er, because he trimmed them maybe?

 

I can think of at least one instance where Steve Borock laughingly told me that "we at CGC don't pass judgment on submitters or their books - we just grade 'em. If someone wants to 'alter' a book, we don't pass judgment on that act, we just assign a Purple label if the work that's been done falls into our definition of restoration." He made it seem as though CGC practically enjoyed getting restored books in - that in some way CGC was punishing those attempts to sneak resto work by the CGC graders by taking their money and giving them PLODs.

 

I think it's one thing to say that when you believe your company is catching virtually all of the restoration before you. It's another thing when you find out that someone you thought was your friend was working a large-scale fraud on the collecting public through a technique that was good enough to slip past your (meaning CGC's) detection screening. CGC doesn't ban all people who submit restored books. But for a guy who used CGC to perpetrate fraud on a large segment of the market and called into question the legitimacy of CGC and its restoration detection skills, I think special punishment is warranted.

 

Now that it's clear that even some of the types of restoration that CGC has steadfastly regarded as verboten are capable of sneaking through the resto detection process, they're throwing the book at Ewert? What a joke. Sure, he's lower than whatever's presently stuck to your shoe for doing what he did - but as far as I can tell, CGC has no written policy re: what happens to someone who submits a restored book... apparently, it's a "317 strikes and you're out" policy, and Ewert is simply the first person to trigger it.

 

Who cares if there's a written CGC policy that was violated or not? What difference does that make? Ewert's behavior was criminal and tortious and he used CGC to perpetrate that fraud. They had every right, and indeed, perhaps even an obligation to ban him and it was the right thing to do.

[Mushroom]

So what law did he break? Is there Anti-trimming legislation?

[FFB]

So what law did he break? Is there Anti-trimming legislation?

 

How about we start with the federal mail and wire fraud statutes and go from there?

[mar-vell]

Books been added to the registry.comicwiz.com; you should be able to quick search it using keyword resub

 

so the batman 11 i have been hearing about was a Ewert book also!!! Can someone tell me how that was caught? Was the whole book trimmed? I take it Ewert was able to slip by at that point because of his reputation. If anyone cares to share some details about this book i would appreciate it. I never got the whole story!

[FFB]

Books been added to the registry.comicwiz.com; you should be able to quick search it using keyword resub

 

so the batman 11 i have been hearing about was a Ewert book also!!! Can someone tell me how that was caught? Was the whole book trimmed? I take it Ewert was able to slip by at that point because of his reputation. If anyone cares to share some details about this book i would appreciate it. I never got the whole story!

 

It was not a Ewert book. That book was trimmed by a guy in England.

[mar-vell]

Books been added to the registry.comicwiz.com; you should be able to quick search it using keyword resub

 

so the batman 11 i have been hearing about was a Ewert book also!!! Can someone tell me how that was caught? Was the whole book trimmed? I take it Ewert was able to slip by at that point because of his reputation. If anyone cares to share some details about this book i would appreciate it. I never got the whole story!

 

It was not a Ewert book. That book was trimmed by a guy in England.

 

I must have misunderstood something -I thought it was listed in thagt registry as a Ewert sub--thanks for the info

[FFB]

Books been added to the registry.comicwiz.com; you should be able to quick search it using keyword resub

 

so the batman 11 i have been hearing about was a Ewert book also!!! Can someone tell me how that was caught? Was the whole book trimmed? I take it Ewert was able to slip by at that point because of his reputation. If anyone cares to share some details about this book i would appreciate it. I never got the whole story!

 

It was not a Ewert book. That book was trimmed by a guy in England.

 

I must have misunderstood something -I thought it was listed in thagt registry as a Ewert sub--thanks for the info

 

Yes, it is (incorrectly) listed on that registry of Ejaenter sales.

[garthgantu]

I think it's one thing to say that when you believe your company is catching virtually all of the restoration before you. It's another thing when you find out that someone you thought was your friend was working a large-scale fraud on the collecting public through a technique that was good enough to slip past your (meaning CGC's) detection screening. CGC doesn't ban all people who submit restored books. But for a guy who used CGC to perpetrate fraud on a large segment of the market and called into question the legitimacy of CGC and its restoration detection skills, I think special punishment is warranted.

 

Who cares if there's a written CGC policy that was violated or not? What difference does that make? Ewert's behavior was criminal and tortious and he used CGC to perpetrate that fraud. They had every right, and indeed, perhaps even an obligation to ban him and it was the right thing to do.

 

I care. What if I send in five books that turn out to have been restored by the seller from whom I got them and CGC just arbitrarily decides I'm the guilty party?

 

Further, my real point was the one you made above - that an informal policy about what happens to those submitting restored books is fine when you're confident you can catch all such restoration but now that that is not the case, some formal policy should be implemented.

 

Can CGC do anything to Ewert? I'm no lawyer, but my guess would be no - he simply utilized their service per their instructions. Can people who purchased trimmed books from Ewert sue him? It seems the answer is yes, because he was aware of, if not actually performing, the work in question, and not disclosing that work to prospective buyers falls under the definition of fraud.

 

But really, CGC facilitated Ewert's fraud, didn't they? By giving the marketplace a false sense of security about the CGC product, they enabled Ewert to command much higher prices for the books than he otherwise would have, and in fact the multiples of guide being paid for uber high grade books, especially the early Marvel hero titles that Ewert kept coming up with, were largely the result of CGC and its "seal of approval." (I've heard the stories about multiples being paid previously and ya know what? They don't really apply. In those days, Fishler would pay Brulato 3x guide for a NM+ FF #1, or Chucky would manage to get 3x guide for the Church copy of Whiz #2 or etc., but it wasn't EVERY 9.4 or 9.6 key that went for more than guide, not by a long shot. CGC created the phenomenon of 'average Joe buyer pays unknown seller 12x guide for Hulk 181 in 9.6")

[FFB]

I think it's one thing to say that when you believe your company is catching virtually all of the restoration before you. It's another thing when you find out that someone you thought was your friend was working a large-scale fraud on the collecting public through a technique that was good enough to slip past your (meaning CGC's) detection screening. CGC doesn't ban all people who submit restored books. But for a guy who used CGC to perpetrate fraud on a large segment of the market and called into question the legitimacy of CGC and its restoration detection skills, I think special punishment is warranted.

 

Who cares if there's a written CGC policy that was violated or not? What difference does that make? Ewert's behavior was criminal and tortious and he used CGC to perpetrate that fraud. They had every right, and indeed, perhaps even an obligation to ban him and it was the right thing to do.

 

I care. What if I send in five books that turn out to have been restored by the seller from whom I got them and CGC just arbitrarily decides I'm the guilty party?

 

Further, my real point was the one you made above - that an informal policy about what happens to those submitting restored books is fine when you're confident you can catch all such restoration but now that that is not the case, some formal policy should be implemented.

 

Can CGC do anything to Ewert? I'm no lawyer, but my guess would be no - he simply utilized their service per their instructions. Can people who purchased trimmed books from Ewert sue him? It seems the answer is yes, because he was aware of, if not actually performing, the work in question, and not disclosing that work to prospective buyers falls under the definition of fraud.

 

But really, CGC facilitated Ewert's fraud, didn't they? By giving the marketplace a false sense of security about the CGC product, they enabled Ewert to command much higher prices for the books than he otherwise would have, and in fact the multiples of guide being paid for uber high grade books, especially the early Marvel hero titles that Ewert kept coming up with, were largely the result of CGC and its "seal of approval." (I've heard the stories about multiples being paid previously and ya know what? They don't really apply. In those days, Fishler would pay Brulato 3x guide for a NM+ FF #1, or Chucky would manage to get 3x guide for the Church copy of Whiz #2 or etc., but it wasn't EVERY 9.4 or 9.6 key that went for more than guide, not by a long shot. CGC created the phenomenon of 'average Joe buyer pays unknown seller 12x guide for Hulk 181 in 9.6")

 

Garth, unless you have some reason to believe that CGC played a knowing and complicit role in what Ewert did, I think it is laughable, ridiculous, and lame as all hell for you to say that they "facilitated" his fraud. That's like saying that a store owner "facilitated" the mafia's extortion of him by paying the mobsters protection money.

 

Why are you so interested in deflecting blame away from Ewert? Does the guy owe you money or something? Or are you just so hungry to take a shot at CGC that you'll latch on to every opportunity to do it?

[divad]

I think it's one thing to say that when you believe your company is catching virtually all of the restoration before you. It's another thing when you find out that someone you thought was your friend was working a large-scale fraud on the collecting public through a technique that was good enough to slip past your (meaning CGC's) detection screening. CGC doesn't ban all people who submit restored books. But for a guy who used CGC to perpetrate fraud on a large segment of the market and called into question the legitimacy of CGC and its restoration detection skills, I think special punishment is warranted.

 

Who cares if there's a written CGC policy that was violated or not? What difference does that make? Ewert's behavior was criminal and tortious and he used CGC to perpetrate that fraud. They had every right, and indeed, perhaps even an obligation to ban him and it was the right thing to do.

 

I care. What if I send in five books that turn out to have been restored by the seller from whom I got them and CGC just arbitrarily decides I'm the guilty party?

 

Further, my real point was the one you made above - that an informal policy about what happens to those submitting restored books is fine when you're confident you can catch all such restoration but now that that is not the case, some formal policy should be implemented.

 

Can CGC do anything to Ewert? I'm no lawyer, but my guess would be no - he simply utilized their service per their instructions. Can people who purchased trimmed books from Ewert sue him? It seems the answer is yes, because he was aware of, if not actually performing, the work in question, and not disclosing that work to prospective buyers falls under the definition of fraud.

 

But really, CGC facilitated Ewert's fraud, didn't they? By giving the marketplace a false sense of security about the CGC product, they enabled Ewert to command much higher prices for the books than he otherwise would have, and in fact the multiples of guide being paid for uber high grade books, especially the early Marvel hero titles that Ewert kept coming up with, were largely the result of CGC and its "seal of approval." (I've heard the stories about multiples being paid previously and ya know what? They don't really apply. In those days, Fishler would pay Brulato 3x guide for a NM+ FF #1, or Chucky would manage to get 3x guide for the Church copy of Whiz #2 or etc., but it wasn't EVERY 9.4 or 9.6 key that went for more than guide, not by a long shot. CGC created the phenomenon of 'average Joe buyer pays unknown seller 12x guide for Hulk 181 in 9.6")

 

Garth, unless you have some reason to believe that CGC played a knowing and complicit role in what Ewert did, I think it is laughable, ridiculous, and lame as all hell for you to say that they "facilitated" his fraud. That's like saying that a store owner "facilitated" the mafia's extortion of him by paying the mobsters protection money.

 

Why are you so interested in deflecting blame away from Ewert? Does the guy owe you money or something? Or are you just so hungry to take a shot at CGC that you'll latch on to every opportunity to do it?

 

Scott,

I wholly agree . . . but don't forget the breadth of "aiding and abetting" specifically how it might apply to Heritage, not CGC.

[FFB]

But really, CGC facilitated Ewert's fraud, didn't they? By giving the marketplace a false sense of security about the CGC product, they enabled Ewert to command much higher prices for the books than he otherwise would have, and in fact the multiples of guide being paid for uber high grade books, especially the early Marvel hero titles that Ewert kept coming up with, were largely the result of CGC and its "seal of approval." (I've heard the stories about multiples being paid previously and ya know what? They don't really apply. In those days, Fishler would pay Brulato 3x guide for a NM+ FF #1, or Chucky would manage to get 3x guide for the Church copy of Whiz #2 or etc., but it wasn't EVERY 9.4 or 9.6 key that went for more than guide, not by a long shot. CGC created the phenomenon of 'average Joe buyer pays unknown seller 12x guide for Hulk 181 in 9.6")

 

Garth, unless you have some reason to believe that CGC played a knowing and complicit role in what Ewert did, I think it is laughable, ridiculous, and lame as all hell for you to say that they "facilitated" his fraud. That's like saying that a store owner "facilitated" the mafia's extortion of him by paying the mobsters protection money.

 

Why are you so interested in deflecting blame away from Ewert? Does the guy owe you money or something? Or are you just so hungry to take a shot at CGC that you'll latch on to every opportunity to do it?

 

Scott,

I wholly agree . . . but don't forget the breadth of "aiding and abetting" specifically how it might apply to Heritage, not CGC.

 

That's where the "knowing and complicit" part of my comment comes in. Without that, CGC was as much a victim of Ewert's practices as any collector, and perhaps moreso because of the effect that the Ewert scandal had on consumer confidence in CGC.

[comicwiz]

Books been added to the registry.comicwiz.com; you should be able to quick search it using keyword resub

 

so the batman 11 i have been hearing about was a Ewert book also!!! Can someone tell me how that was caught? Was the whole book trimmed? I take it Ewert was able to slip by at that point because of his reputation. If anyone cares to share some details about this book i would appreciate it. I never got the whole story!

 

It was not a Ewert book. That book was trimmed by a guy in England.

 

I must have misunderstood something -I thought it was listed in thagt registry as a Ewert sub--thanks for the info

 

Yes, it is (incorrectly) listed on that registry of Ejaenter sales.

 

The Bats 11 was deliberately placed in the trimmed/restored registry.

 

Jasons sales data kick-started the registry, and the thinking here was that if a book from the sales data turned out to be clear of resto/trimming, then it got removed from the registry.

 

The objective was not so much to prove the data wrong or right, but to serve as an online resource for board members and collectors alike to cross-reference and make informed decisions prior to purchasing books which have been flagged as restored.

[FFB]

Books been added to the registry.comicwiz.com; you should be able to quick search it using keyword resub

 

so the batman 11 i have been hearing about was a Ewert book also!!! Can someone tell me how that was caught? Was the whole book trimmed? I take it Ewert was able to slip by at that point because of his reputation. If anyone cares to share some details about this book i would appreciate it. I never got the whole story!

 

It was not a Ewert book. That book was trimmed by a guy in England.

 

I must have misunderstood something -I thought it was listed in thagt registry as a Ewert sub--thanks for the info

 

Yes, it is (incorrectly) listed on that registry of Ejaenter sales.

 

The Bats 11 was deliberately placed in the trimmed/restored registry.

 

Jasons sales data kick-started the registry, and the thinking here was that if a book from the sales data turned out to be clear of resto/trimming, then it got removed from the registry.

 

The objective was not so much to prove the data wrong or right, but to serve as an online resource for board members and collectors alike to cross-reference and make informed decisions prior to purchasing books which have been flagged as restored.

 

It still shouldn't be in a list of Ejaenter sales IMO though, because it misleads people into thinking it was one of his books when it wasnt. Maybe you could call the combined list something else and just have a sublist of Ewert books? It's a great resource -- I would just hate to have people questioning the validity of it by pointing out that the "ejaenter sales" list contains a bunch of books that aren't ejaenter sales.

[comicwiz]

Books been added to the registry.comicwiz.com; you should be able to quick search it using keyword resub

 

so the batman 11 i have been hearing about was a Ewert book also!!! Can someone tell me how that was caught? Was the whole book trimmed? I take it Ewert was able to slip by at that point because of his reputation. If anyone cares to share some details about this book i would appreciate it. I never got the whole story!

 

It was not a Ewert book. That book was trimmed by a guy in England.

 

I must have misunderstood something -I thought it was listed in thagt registry as a Ewert sub--thanks for the info

 

Yes, it is (incorrectly) listed on that registry of Ejaenter sales.

 

The Bats 11 was deliberately placed in the trimmed/restored registry.

 

Jasons sales data kick-started the registry, and the thinking here was that if a book from the sales data turned out to be clear of resto/trimming, then it got removed from the registry.

 

The objective was not so much to prove the data wrong or right, but to serve as an online resource for board members and collectors alike to cross-reference and make informed decisions prior to purchasing books which have been flagged as restored.

 

It still shouldn't be in a list of Ejaenter sales IMO though, because it misleads people into thinking it was one of his books when it wasnt. Maybe you could call the combined list something else and just have a sublist of Ewert books? It's a great resource -- I would just hate to have people questioning the validity of it by pointing out that the "ejaenter sales" list contains a bunch of books that aren't ejaenter sales.

 

The "Ejaenter sales" appearing at the top left corner populated there from the original data file that was shared on the boards. The interface you see just dresses that original database, and allows modifications and additions to occur in a web-based enivironment.

 

I do see your point though, and I will eventually get around to changing the "Ejaenter sales" appearing at the top of the page to "Trimmed/Restored Registry", but even then the Bats 11 stays, and with it, any other books identified as being restored/trimmed, whether those books came from Jason sales/stock or not.

[Mephisto]

Books been added to the registry.comicwiz.com; you should be able to quick search it using keyword resub

 

so the batman 11 i have been hearing about was a Ewert book also!!! Can someone tell me how that was caught? Was the whole book trimmed? I take it Ewert was able to slip by at that point because of his reputation. If anyone cares to share some details about this book i would appreciate it. I never got the whole story!

 

It was not a Ewert book. That book was trimmed by a guy in England.

 

When was this revealed?

[FFB]

Books been added to the registry.comicwiz.com; you should be able to quick search it using keyword resub

 

so the batman 11 i have been hearing about was a Ewert book also!!! Can someone tell me how that was caught? Was the whole book trimmed? I take it Ewert was able to slip by at that point because of his reputation. If anyone cares to share some details about this book i would appreciate it. I never got the whole story!

 

It was not a Ewert book. That book was trimmed by a guy in England.

 

When was this revealed?

 

It's been discussed a number of times on here. I heard it through the grapevine from a reliable source long before the Ewert scandal.

[mar-vell]

any new developments?