CGC vs. PGX

[Ze-man]

No worries Jeff, sometimes a thread takes on a life of it's own. Many times when a thread topic is new to the forum people will try and stay on course and not derail it, but since the CGC vs PGX debate has been discussed more then a few times already threads like this sometimes tend to be like open mic night. We all chime in on a part of a post that flips a switch in us and run with it.

 

I always enjoy the open discourse no matter the subject.

 

You may be new to the game and have a lot to catch up on, but everyone here still stands to learn a thing or two about this ever changing hobby. And as Paul so aptly stated earlier there is plenty of room for all of us nutjobs here.

 

So post away my friend, and have fun.

 

Kenny

 

p.s. Why do I have a feeling Chicago is going to be a doozy this year?

 

[mr.schomburg]

No worries Jeff, sometimes a thread takes on a life of it's own. Many times when a thread topic is new to the forum people will try and stay on course and not derail it, but since the CGC vs PGX debate has been discussed more then a few times already threads like this sometimes tend to be like open mike night. We all chime in on a part of a post that flips a switch in us and run with it.

 

I always enjoy the open discourse no matter the subject.

 

You may be new to the game and have a lot to catch up on, but everyone here still stands to learn a thing or two about this ever changing hobby. And as Paul so aptly stated earlier there is plenty of room for all of us nutjobs here.

 

So post away my friend, and have fun.

 

Kenny

 

p.s. Why do I have a feeling Chicago is going to be a doozy this year?

 

I promise I will behave! At least when it comes to CGC vs. PGX....I really don't have any problem with CGC, they are great! Really in Chi Town the only thing that I am looking forward to, it guys like you Zee, and looking and purchasing great books. CGC and PGX alike! Hell, you get me drunk enough at the forum dinner and I will probably buy a round or two, or three..4..5 who knows, but I am looking forward to meeting you guys.

Paul

 

[garthgantu]

Tape removal/stains

Erasure (NOT dry cleaning)

Tape

 

These three things we can consistently detect and DO NOT consider restoration.

 

These are also three things "remotely" (considered by some hobbyists and by some conservation definitions) in the resto arena.

 

Thanks for this, Steve!

 

Any thoughts on why erasure of a name written on a cover, when such erasure clearly removes ink and gloss along with the writing, is NOT viewed as restoration by CGC? How is that not falling squarely into CGC's definition of restoration? It is done specifically for the purpose of enhancing the appearance of the book, and it's removing some of the book's original material, so...?

[codfish]

Because it is a damage/defect and not resto? :shrugs:

[garthgantu]

I see where you're going, Cod... perhaps it's just factored into the grade? But in that case, you could make the same argument with trimming, right? It's damage or a 'defect' that occurred intentionally, for the purpose of enhancing the book's appearance?

 

I think the original writing itself should be factored into the grade, even in the case of a pedigree book. But the removal of same should be considered restoration, given the motive behind it and the effect it has on the book.

 

I guess what I'm saying is, while I'm personally opposed to cleaning in general, I can at least understand CGC's stance of "cleaning is not removing anything that the book had originally" - in those instances when the cleaning is removing dirt, stains or writing without materially changing the book or removing anything that was originally part of the book.

 

But when the cleaning takes some of the book with it, it seems pretty similar to trimming - it's done to enhance the appearance of the book, and it removes some of the original material that made up the book...

[divad]

But in that case, you could make the same argument with trimming, right?

 

They do.

 

I'm probably wrong, but . . . I don't believe trimming alone garners a purple label. (Steve?) It always warrants a label notation however.

[garthgantu]

But in that case, you could make the same argument with trimming, right?

 

They do.

 

I'm probably wrong, but . . . I don't believe trimming alone garners a purple label. (Steve?) It always warrants a label notation however.

 

But Divad, if this is true, then why didn't Steve B. include it on that list in his original response to my post? I'm pretty sure trimming is on the 'other list' - the one of 'activity done to a book to enhance its appearance/grade, that removes some of the original material of the book, and IS consistently detectable by CGC' ??

 

If trimming alone does not garner a PLOD, that would be news to me, and I believe to most everyone else on these boards...?

[Ze-man]

But in that case, you could make the same argument with trimming, right?

 

They do.

 

I'm probably wrong, but . . . I don't believe trimming alone garners a purple label. (Steve?) It always warrants a label notation however.

 

I think just the latter. It is destroying the book, not restoring it.

 

If a book is trimmed as part of the resto process then yes, it will obviously be listed among the other work done on the purple label.

 

But trimming alone?, I think that just gets downgraded and noted on the label.

 

Anyone have scans handy of examples of either scenario?

 

Once again, where is that pesky FFB when you need him.

 

Ze-

[garthgantu]

Kenny, yer blowin' my mind, man...!

 

Trimming is of course 'destroying' the book as you say...but it's destroying it in a very pre-meditated way expressly for the purpose of bringing the book closer to its original appearance (if not its original state)...?

 

So what you're saying is, if Jason Ewert had simply TOLD CGC that he was micro-trimming all those SA keys, they'd have just noted it on the label? No PLODs, no 'banishment', no stern words or etc.? I'm having trouble believing this...

[Ze-man]

That was why I asked if anyone had scans of this scenario. To actually see how it is labeled on a plod, or if it is only mentioned in the notes on a blue.

 

I am not saying it as fact, but just from memory.

 

And that is fuzzy at best.. I am older now.

 

 

Ze-

[codfish]

My understanding is that triming is a defect and is taken into consideration as such when grading. Trimming alone would not get a PLOD and I fairly certain I have seen BLOJ with trimming noted.

 

Therefore, I would have to say and agree that if Ewert had informed CGC of the trims then yes they would have probably got BLOJ and he would not have been blackballed. The fact that he tried to deceive so many people including CGC means that he got his just punishment ... well I would have sent out hired goons to rough him up for defiling so many nice books.

[divad]

If a book is trimmed as part of the resto process then yes, it will obviously be listed among the other work done on the purple label.

 

Obviously.

[BlowUpTheMoon]

This thread has been an interesting read.

[divad]

My understanding is that triming is a defect and is taken into consideration as such when grading. Trimming alone would not get a PLOD and I fairly certain I have seen BLOJ with trimming noted.

 

This is my understanding as well, as in a Blue label with the notation: "ALL THREE EDGES TRIMMED"

 

Of course, not on any of My books . . .

[Ze-man]

This thread got me to go dig out the few PGX slabs I have to look at them closely.

 

A few thing about the holder bothered me, a few things I liked.

 

The first thing I noticed was how the inner well was warped, and my first reaction was how that might affect the comic inside over time.

 

So I cut it out and took some photos. I was surprised to see that the outer shell came apart cleanly, but the seams on the inner well were so wide and strong tampering with it was not an issue. The plastic was stronger where welded and could not be cut/pried apart.

 

The pressure that is applied to the well and comic when sealing these seams is obviously decent amount of pressure which can be seen by the warping affect once the top was cut off.

 

I am not sure what the condition of this comic was when it was slabbed, but it does have a warp to it now that mimics the inner well. Anyone else have slabs with this problem?

 

I also was surprised to see the tiny Micro chamber paper inside, it was placed inside the first and last interior page, and was not touching the front or back covers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sal]

My understanding is that triming is a defect and is taken into consideration as such when grading. Trimming alone would not get a PLOD and I fairly certain I have seen BLOJ with trimming noted.

 

 

trimming is absolutely considered a defect, and is definitely taken into consideration. i had a book i bought raw that i subbed and did not know was trimmed - it actually turned out to be the same Swamp Thing 7 that Leder had graded by PGX and is on OldGuy's PGX page of all things - and it looked for all intents and purposes to be a 9.8.

 

Came back a 7.0 PLOD (t). When Bernie Wrightson signed it, he caused some minor indenting on the cover, which probably dropped it down to a 9.0, but at any rate that is the level to which a top and bottom trimmed book will get hit by CGC.

 

Purple label, btw

[BlowUpTheMoon]

Can you put the case back together without it appearing it had been opened?

[Ze-man]

Yeah, but as I said since the innerwell is soo bulletproof and the label sealed inside there is no worry about tampering. And actually was what prompted me to bittch at Steve long ago to seam seal their label into the well itself.

 

Not that rampant label switching was likely to occur, but to remove the temptation solved that problem quickly.

 

Or did you just mean can I put the case back together to make it look pretty?

 

 

Ze-

[BlowUpTheMoon]

I was wondering if you could put in a lower graded book in there.

[sborock]

Trimming gets a purple label, but does not get a restoration designation (SA, MP, and such) as it takes away something that was originally part of the book. It just states "apparent" on the label and where the comic book was trimmed.

 

Erasure is treated as a defect.