POLL: Do you care if a comic has been pressed?

[Jeffro.]

 

Once you sell something, it's gone, forget the what if, should have, could have scenario as it will give you ulcers.

 

As long as you made a little profit, who really cares?

 

This is quite prophetic for me regarding a certain Batman 251. I undergraded it and sold it too cheaply, but you know what? I still made a lot more than I paid for it, and more importantly, I learned a lesson from the experience.

[fantastic_four]

Just raising the possibility that, like every other scientific or pseudo-scientific (and I don't mean that as an insult) field, the experts don't already know everything, especially when not enough time has passed to study something longitudinally.

 

Using wood pulp for paper isn't new to comic books. A wide variety of grades have been used for centuries, many of which are worse than what Silver and Bronze comics used. The most popular form of wood pulp-based paper in the world is newspaper, which is far worse than what comics have ever been printed on. Conservators have literally been working for hundreds of years to preserve, conserve, and restore documents created throughout human history; I can't see how comics are an entirely new and unrelated chapter in the history of paper conservation.

[fantastic_four]

I wonder if all those Incredible Hulk 181`s will deteriorate?

 

The best indicator I've heard as to how long cheap paper can survive without deterioration is the Vancouver pedigree collection. This set of books from the 1930s and 1940s was stored in stacks interleaved between newspapers and magazines from the same time period as the comics sorted roughly in the same order they were originally purchased. Since newspaper is printed on cheaper pulp than comics are, you'd think the higher acidity from the newspapers would deteriorate the comics they sandwiched, but they didn't. The comics in the collection were almost all pure white pages, and the newspapers themselves hadn't significantly degraded either.

 

So yes, the Hulk 181s will degrade, but they wouldn't if you stored them well.

[fantastic_four]

Make me think of the early ages of restoration and trimming, when a lot of people were restoring or trimming books because most people could not detect it. How many great books have been wasted because of that...

 

I remember many years ago that restoration was a big thing. Sending books to Susan Cicconi or Mark Wilson was supposed to increase value. Trimming books slightly was also supposed to be impossible to detect. I never did believe it and I am glad today I never did. For example, I knew Jason Ewert for years, bought a few books from him BEFORE he started that trimming thing but I did stop buying from him when he tried to sell me a book that I did suspect was trimmed and he didn't tell me. Trimming obviously did work well for him for a while and the honest seller he was at the beginning became the greedy and dishonest seller all people will now remember. This is sad. And the only reason it did work well is that CGC could not detect it....until they finally could and it was over.

 

Greed did push people to alter comic books and restore and/or trim them. I really think the same thing is happening again with pressing.

 

Five years ago, I swore to myself I'd never post in another pressing thread. I was kicking myself yesterday for posting in this one. The reason I hate these threads is they're usually empty complaining, but I find your line of thinking more useful and progressive, and the concern you express above is the most valid one any collector of high grade should consider, as the comparison between trimming and pressing is a good one.

 

Both forms of restoration are quite similar in that they can both be 100% impossible to detect. CGC detects trimming either by the pattern of the cut or by comparing the paper color of the sides of the comic to the color of the front or back of the page. If the edge is whiter than the rest of the comic, then you've probably got a trim. However, if somebody does a trimming job to a book and understands the different trimming methods used by the printing presses at the time the comic was published and mimics the same cutting method used by the press, and the book has white pages, then the trim becomes undetectable. Not many people possess this level of trimming skill, and not every book is a candidate for an undetectable trim.

 

Trimming differs from pressing in one major respect--there's no natural way a trim can occur once it has left the press. If you spot a post-publication trim, was this an attempt at restoration? Yes, it was. How else would an even, edgelong cut occur to an entire side of a comic's cover, its interior, or both? There is no normal use-case scenario in the handling or storage of comics where it would happen. Even if you're a butcher who collects comics and frequently leaves them near the slicer, and even if you have an accident where one side of the comic falls under the blade of the slicer--the odds you'll cut it at EXACTLY an even angle is remote. An "accidental" trim is beyond credibility.

 

Pressing, however, can occur under normal ownership of comics. Remember that the term "pressing" is partially a misnomer--pressure alone doesn't do much unless it is accompanied by heat and/or humidity. The primary ways that it would be feasible to detect some types of pressing is via microscopic damage to gloss or paper fiber. However, the same types of damage that can occur to gloss or the paper during pressing can also occur with comics stored in stacks in extremely hot environments--attics, or if they're stored near a furnace, fireplace, or other heating element. So while detection of pressing is possible, most of the time, its detection is only circumstantial evidence of an actual restoration attempt.

 

Your comparison of trimming from the 1980s to pressing today is entirely valid. Some of the worse pressing techniques most likely are detectable and tracable back to intentional pressing. However--it's possible that this detection method will never be cost-effective. Examining every square inch of a comic for pressing microscopically could easily take the same amount of time as all of the other restoration checks CGC does combined. And the results yielded from this examination are often--probably most often--going to lead to inconclusive results. It'll be interesting to see whether a reliable, cost-effective pressing detection technique becomes available--but even if it does--the methods that don't affect gloss or the paper will still be used and still be undetectable. And we'll still be complaining about people using those techniques for upgrades as much then as we do now.

 

The fight against pressing via detection just seems like a losing battle. I'm guessing that's why Borock, Friesan, and Haspel have never been able to tackle it.

[Dale Roberts]

Yes I would like to know if a comic has been pressed or not because we don't know the long term effects pressing has on comics.

 

You do realise a book is pressed and heated when it is printed. IIRC I still see some books for the 1930's in high grade slabs. Did not appear to have too negative of an effect on those books.

 

Books are also trimmed when they are printed.

 

Exactly....

 

OK, gloves off

 

This pressing thing is making me sick.....

 

Yes, I would like to know if a book has been pressed and as a collector, I would NEVER want to buy a book that has been pressed.

 

Make me think of the early ages of restoration and trimming, when a lot of people were restoring or trimming books because most people could not detect it. How many great books have been wasted because of that...

 

I remember many years ago that restoration was a big thing. Sending books to Susan Cicconi or Mark Wilson was supposed to increase value. Trimming books slightly was also supposed to be impossible to detect. I never did believe it and I am glad today I never did. For example, I knew Jason Ewert for years, bought a few books from him BEFORE he started that trimming thing but I did stop buying from him when he tried to sell me a book that I did suspect was trimmed and he didn't tell me. Trimming obviously did work well for him for a while and the honest seller he was at the beginning became the greedy and dishonest seller all people will now remember. This is sad. And the only reason it did work well is that CGC could not detect it....until they finally could and it was over.

 

Greed did push people to alter comic books and restore and/or trim them. I really think the same thing is happening again with pressing.

 

Yes, pressing, trimming, inking, etc. is all normal process WHEN the book is printed. Doing it after though alter the original condition of the book. Call it restoration, preservation, whatever, your book is no longer in its original condition.

 

I like to say that I do own books that are in their original 9.4-9.6 condition.

 

Therefore, my humble advise to any seller whom press books would be, AT THE VERY LEAST, disclose the fact when you are selling such a book.

 

I can understand that many sellers want to maximize their profit by pressing the books they have for sale. I disagree, but I understand. But I will NEVER buy from a seller whom does not disclose the fact that the book has been pressed, especially if he did it himself.

 

For those sellers whom press books AND disclose the fact, although I disagree, you have my respect.

 

Now, although, as a collector, I know I will never want to own a pressed book in my collection, as a seller, I am really tormented here.

 

I've sold raw 8.5 books that became CGC 9.6 after being pressed. Also, knowing that a book I did own for years sold for $24K after being pressed make me question myself : why should I not become a greedy seller as well ? I have the books for that. We all want to make money. I do too.

 

The only answer I found: I just can't and I don't know why...

 

Am I stupid for not pressing my books ? Maybe I am. Maybe not. Future will tell.

 

But knowing that other people are doing it really REALLY hurts. $24K is a lot of money !!

 

If you can't beat it, join it, they say.

 

I am still pondering this...

 

 

 

Here is something else to ponder......

 

The book raw in the condition you owned(FF #112) was worth somewhere around $125.00. However, you bought into what CGC was selling when you got the book slabbed. Whether you trusted their opinion on grading, or their reassurance that the book was not restored, you valued their opinion enough to get the book graded. I don't really know what your motivation was, but I have to believe that at least some of your interest was turning a 125.00 book into a book with higher value. Basically turning the $125 book into a $1000.00 book. What was your motivation here? This is the question to ask yourself....was it financially motivated or was it for CGC's reassurance of NO restoration.

 

I have no problem either way. You are just as entitled to make money off comics as anyone else. However, if you valued CGCs opinion enough to get the book graded, then you should also value their opinion on pressing. CGCs judgment is that pressing is NOT restoration. Either you trust them or you don't. You can't have it both ways. The number on the slab and the blue label are equal parts of what they are selling.

 

The book was purchased by me for one reason. To make money on. I thought the book had a solid shot as a straight 9.6 candidate on resub, without pressing, making it in effect a $2500.00 - 3000.00 book. However, there is considerable risk in that judgment. Several others(including several board members) looked at the book and thought there was no hope of any upgrade. That is part of my job. To be able to find undervalued books (either due to scarcity, supply and demand, grading or other) and distinguish whether or not something is worth purchasing. Sometimes I am right, sometimes I am wrong, but I thought the book was worth taking the chance on.

 

Doug came to my table and saw the book behind the table. He asked and I told him I was not really interested in selling the book right now, as I was going to resub it. He was willing to purchase the book at the 9.6 price, even though it was in a 9.4 holder. We both agreed that the book could probably benefit from pressing, as there was a tiny non color breaking thumb print on the right edge. We haggled for awhile and finally came to a price on the book which was satisfactory to both of us, which ended up being around the 9.6 price. (Doug also bought probably another 25 slabs from me, which I have no doubt he was intending to press and resub, so I am not exactly sure what the exact price on this particular book was).

 

I had no idea that the book would fetch 24K. Who did? I can't imagine anyone would have predicted that. I thought 10K was a realistic price for the book (uhh, did I really just type that? I guess reality has been altered a bit in the current market).

 

Doug made the same judgments that I did, only he did it better than I did. Hey, I left alot of money on the table too. About 21K. And you know what, I am happy for him. Because for every book that things work out well on, there are 5 books that don't, especially when you are paying the type of prices that he paid. He has built his business up and invested tons of time and money on it. He should reap the benefits from it.

 

Back some 16 years ago, I bought a nice JIM #1 for about $125.00 from a local comic store. The book appeared to be underpriced to me, and I knew it was a tough book, but I didn't really know how tough. I flipped the book to a dealer for $250.00. He, in turn, sold the book to Harley for $750.00 and where it went from there, I don't know. I suspect it went for at least $1000.00 though. But that is part of the game.

 

It is unfortunate that you feel like you are out all that money.

[Dale Roberts]

All I can say is don't change who you are. Don't become something you don't agree/believe in. Money changes people and most of the time, not for the better.

 

Once you sell something, it's gone, forget the what if, should have, could have scenario as it will give you ulcers.

 

As long as you made a little profit, who really cares?

 

I try to follow this logic and I am very content as a collector.

 

Quote of the day so far.

 

(thumbs u

[Foolkiller]

Yes I would like to know if a comic has been pressed or not because we don't know the long term effects pressing has on comics.

 

You do realise a book is pressed and heated when it is printed. IIRC I still see some books for the 1930's in high grade slabs. Did not appear to have too negative of an effect on those books.

 

Books are also trimmed when they are printed.

 

Exactly....

 

OK, gloves off

 

This pressing thing is making me sick.....

 

Yes, I would like to know if a book has been pressed and as a collector, I would NEVER want to buy a book that has been pressed.

 

Make me think of the early ages of restoration and trimming, when a lot of people were restoring or trimming books because most people could not detect it. How many great books have been wasted because of that...

 

I remember many years ago that restoration was a big thing. Sending books to Susan Cicconi or Mark Wilson was supposed to increase value. Trimming books slightly was also supposed to be impossible to detect. I never did believe it and I am glad today I never did. For example, I knew Jason Ewert for years, bought a few books from him BEFORE he started that trimming thing but I did stop buying from him when he tried to sell me a book that I did suspect was trimmed and he didn't tell me. Trimming obviously did work well for him for a while and the honest seller he was at the beginning became the greedy and dishonest seller all people will now remember. This is sad. And the only reason it did work well is that CGC could not detect it....until they finally could and it was over.

 

Greed did push people to alter comic books and restore and/or trim them. I really think the same thing is happening again with pressing.

 

Yes, pressing, trimming, inking, etc. is all normal process WHEN the book is printed. Doing it after though alter the original condition of the book. Call it restoration, preservation, whatever, your book is no longer in its original condition.

 

I like to say that I do own books that are in their original 9.4-9.6 condition.

 

Therefore, my humble advise to any seller whom press books would be, AT THE VERY LEAST, disclose the fact when you are selling such a book.

 

I can understand that many sellers want to maximize their profit by pressing the books they have for sale. I disagree, but I understand. But I will NEVER buy from a seller whom does not disclose the fact that the book has been pressed, especially if he did it himself.

 

For those sellers whom press books AND disclose the fact, although I disagree, you have my respect.

 

Now, although, as a collector, I know I will never want to own a pressed book in my collection, as a seller, I am really tormented here.

 

I've sold raw 8.5 books that became CGC 9.6 after being pressed. Also, knowing that a book I did own for years sold for $24K after being pressed make me question myself : why should I not become a greedy seller as well ? I have the books for that. We all want to make money. I do too.

 

The only answer I found: I just can't and I don't know why...

 

Am I stupid for not pressing my books ? Maybe I am. Maybe not. Future will tell.

 

But knowing that other people are doing it really REALLY hurts. $24K is a lot of money !!

 

If you can't beat it, join it, they say.

 

I am still pondering this...

 

 

 

Here is something else to ponder......

 

The book raw in the condition you owned(FF #112) was worth somewhere around $125.00. However, you bought into what CGC was selling when you got the book slabbed. Whether you trusted their opinion on grading, or their reassurance that the book was not restored, you valued their opinion enough to get the book graded. I don't really know what your motivation was, but I have to believe that at least some of your interest was turning a 125.00 book into a book with higher value. Basically turning the $125 book into a $1000.00 book. What was your motivation here? This is the question to ask yourself....was it financially motivated or was it for CGC's reassurance of NO restoration.

 

I have no problem either way. You are just as entitled to make money off comics as anyone else. However, if you valued CGCs opinion enough to get the book graded, then you should also value their opinion on pressing. CGCs judgment is that pressing is NOT restoration. Either you trust them or you don't. You can't have it both ways. The number on the slab and the blue label are equal parts of what they are selling.

 

The book was purchased by me for one reason. To make money on. I thought the book had a solid shot as a straight 9.6 candidate on resub, without pressing, making it in effect a $2500.00 - 3000.00 book. However, there is considerable risk in that judgment. Several others(including several board members) looked at the book and thought there was no hope of any upgrade. That is part of my job. To be able to find undervalued books (either due to scarcity, supply and demand, grading or other) and distinguish whether or not something is worth purchasing. Sometimes I am right, sometimes I am wrong, but I thought the book was worth taking the chance on.

 

Doug came to my table and saw the book behind the table. He asked and I told him I was not really interested in selling the book right now, as I was going to resub it. He was willing to purchase the book at the 9.6 price, even though it was in a 9.4 holder. We both agreed that the book could probably benefit from pressing, as there was a tiny non color breaking thumb print on the right edge. We haggled for awhile and finally came to a price on the book which was satisfactory to both of us, which ended up being around the 9.6 price. (Doug also bought probably another 25 slabs from me, which I have no doubt he was intending to press and resub, so I am not exactly sure what the exact price on this particular book was).

 

I had no idea that the book would fetch 24K. Who did? I can't imagine anyone would have predicted that. I thought 10K was a realistic price for the book (uhh, did I really just type that? I guess reality has been altered a bit in the current market).

 

Doug made the same judgments that I did, only he did it better than I did. Hey, I left alot of money on the table too. About 21K. And you know what, I am happy for him. Because for every book that things work out well on, there are 5 books that don't, especially when you are paying the type of prices that he paid. He has built his business up and invested tons of time and money on it. He should reap the benefits from it.

 

Back some 16 years ago, I bought a nice JIM #1 for about $125.00 from a local comic store. The book appeared to be underpriced to me, and I knew it was a tough book, but I didn't really know how tough. I flipped the book to a dealer for $250.00. He, in turn, sold the book to Harley for $750.00 and where it went from there, I don't know. I suspect it went for at least $1000.00 though. But that is part of the game.

 

It is unfortunate that you feel like you are out all that money.

 

Great post Dale. It's also the same as flipping a book raw and not grading it these days. If you sell it for a price you thought was fair, then so be it. Bottom line is also when you deal with people, no matter where it is, and leave something on the table, you get repeat customers who will buy from you. When I sell to a dealer, I know they are making money on it, otherwise, why are they buying it from me. If people get some wins, that's cool. I know they'll be back.

 

It's only natural to feel like you left some $ on the table when someone else spots something you didn't or takes a gamble and wins. Of course, there's also losses. Take the good with the bad -- in terms of pressing, if you don't want to press, that's fine, but don't be surprised or disappointed when someone else does and makes money from it. It's going to happen, and as I've said a million times in the discussion on pressing, the practical reality is that the debate is over and pressing is here to stay. When everyone accepted CGC, they accepted their guidelines on issues like this.

 

The other thing is, like FF or somebody pointed out, everyone acts like pressing occurred in 2000 -- since I know it was going on in the 80s and 90s, I'm pretty confident that the books aren't turning to dust anytime soon, especially since it was done to some pedigree books.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Yes I would like to know if a comic has been pressed or not because we don't know the long term effects pressing has on comics.

 

You do realise a book is pressed and heated when it is printed. IIRC I still see some books for the 1930's in high grade slabs. Did not appear to have too negative of an effect on those books.

 

Books are also trimmed when they are printed.

 

Exactly....

 

OK, gloves off

 

This pressing thing is making me sick.....

 

Yes, I would like to know if a book has been pressed and as a collector, I would NEVER want to buy a book that has been pressed.

 

Make me think of the early ages of restoration and trimming, when a lot of people were restoring or trimming books because most people could not detect it. How many great books have been wasted because of that...

 

I remember many years ago that restoration was a big thing. Sending books to Susan Cicconi or Mark Wilson was supposed to increase value. Trimming books slightly was also supposed to be impossible to detect. I never did believe it and I am glad today I never did. For example, I knew Jason Ewert for years, bought a few books from him BEFORE he started that trimming thing but I did stop buying from him when he tried to sell me a book that I did suspect was trimmed and he didn't tell me. Trimming obviously did work well for him for a while and the honest seller he was at the beginning became the greedy and dishonest seller all people will now remember. This is sad. And the only reason it did work well is that CGC could not detect it....until they finally could and it was over.

 

Greed did push people to alter comic books and restore and/or trim them. I really think the same thing is happening again with pressing.

 

Yes, pressing, trimming, inking, etc. is all normal process WHEN the book is printed. Doing it after though alter the original condition of the book. Call it restoration, preservation, whatever, your book is no longer in its original condition.

 

I like to say that I do own books that are in their original 9.4-9.6 condition.

 

Therefore, my humble advise to any seller whom press books would be, AT THE VERY LEAST, disclose the fact when you are selling such a book.

 

I can understand that many sellers want to maximize their profit by pressing the books they have for sale. I disagree, but I understand. But I will NEVER buy from a seller whom does not disclose the fact that the book has been pressed, especially if he did it himself.

 

For those sellers whom press books AND disclose the fact, although I disagree, you have my respect.

 

Now, although, as a collector, I know I will never want to own a pressed book in my collection, as a seller, I am really tormented here.

 

I've sold raw 8.5 books that became CGC 9.6 after being pressed. Also, knowing that a book I did own for years sold for $24K after being pressed make me question myself : why should I not become a greedy seller as well ? I have the books for that. We all want to make money. I do too.

 

The only answer I found: I just can't and I don't know why...

 

Am I stupid for not pressing my books ? Maybe I am. Maybe not. Future will tell.

 

But knowing that other people are doing it really REALLY hurts. $24K is a lot of money !!

 

If you can't beat it, join it, they say.

 

I am still pondering this...

 

 

 

Here is something else to ponder......

 

The book raw in the condition you owned(FF #112) was worth somewhere around $125.00. However, you bought into what CGC was selling when you got the book slabbed. Whether you trusted their opinion on grading, or their reassurance that the book was not restored, you valued their opinion enough to get the book graded. I don't really know what your motivation was, but I have to believe that at least some of your interest was turning a 125.00 book into a book with higher value. Basically turning the $125 book into a $1000.00 book. What was your motivation here? This is the question to ask yourself....was it financially motivated or was it for CGC's reassurance of NO restoration.

 

I have no problem either way. You are just as entitled to make money off comics as anyone else. However, if you valued CGCs opinion enough to get the book graded, then you should also value their opinion on pressing. CGCs judgment is that pressing is NOT restoration. Either you trust them or you don't. You can't have it both ways. The number on the slab and the blue label are equal parts of what they are selling.

 

The book was purchased by me for one reason. To make money on. I thought the book had a solid shot as a straight 9.6 candidate on resub, without pressing, making it in effect a $2500.00 - 3000.00 book. However, there is considerable risk in that judgment. Several others(including several board members) looked at the book and thought there was no hope of any upgrade. That is part of my job. To be able to find undervalued books (either due to scarcity, supply and demand, grading or other) and distinguish whether or not something is worth purchasing. Sometimes I am right, sometimes I am wrong, but I thought the book was worth taking the chance on.

 

Doug came to my table and saw the book behind the table. He asked and I told him I was not really interested in selling the book right now, as I was going to resub it. He was willing to purchase the book at the 9.6 price, even though it was in a 9.4 holder. We both agreed that the book could probably benefit from pressing, as there was a tiny non color breaking thumb print on the right edge. We haggled for awhile and finally came to a price on the book which was satisfactory to both of us, which ended up being around the 9.6 price. (Doug also bought probably another 25 slabs from me, which I have no doubt he was intending to press and resub, so I am not exactly sure what the exact price on this particular book was).

 

I had no idea that the book would fetch 24K. Who did? I can't imagine anyone would have predicted that. I thought 10K was a realistic price for the book (uhh, did I really just type that? I guess reality has been altered a bit in the current market).

 

Doug made the same judgments that I did, only he did it better than I did. Hey, I left alot of money on the table too. About 21K. And you know what, I am happy for him. Because for every book that things work out well on, there are 5 books that don't, especially when you are paying the type of prices that he paid. He has built his business up and invested tons of time and money on it. He should reap the benefits from it.

 

Back some 16 years ago, I bought a nice JIM #1 for about $125.00 from a local comic store. The book appeared to be underpriced to me, and I knew it was a tough book, but I didn't really know how tough. I flipped the book to a dealer for $250.00. He, in turn, sold the book to Harley for $750.00 and where it went from there, I don't know. I suspect it went for at least $1000.00 though. But that is part of the game.

 

It is unfortunate that you feel like you are out all that money.

 

 

FF 112

________

 

Raw NM = $125

CGC 9.4 = $1000

Potential CGC 9.6 = $3000

CGC 9.8 = $24,000

 

 

[fantastic_four]

The other thing is, like FF or somebody pointed out, everyone acts like pressing occurred in 2000 -- since I know it was going on in the 80s and 90s, I'm pretty confident that the books aren't turning to dust anytime soon, especially since it was done to some pedigree books.

 

Cicconi has been doing it since 1981. And before her, William Sarill was doing it to comics for a decade or two. Before either of them, librarians and museum curators have been doing it for centuries to documents, pamphlets, newspapers, and probably a dozen other mass-market-low-profit publication media I've never heard of printed on far crappier paper than comics are printed on.

[MR.COMICBOOK]

Yes I would like to know if a comic has been pressed or not because we don't know the long term effects pressing has on comics.

 

You do realise a book is pressed and heated when it is printed. IIRC I still see some books for the 1930's in high grade slabs. Did not appear to have too negative of an effect on those books.

 

Books are also trimmed when they are printed.

 

Exactly....

 

OK, gloves off

 

This pressing thing is making me sick.....

 

Yes, I would like to know if a book has been pressed and as a collector, I would NEVER want to buy a book that has been pressed.

 

Make me think of the early ages of restoration and trimming, when a lot of people were restoring or trimming books because most people could not detect it. How many great books have been wasted because of that...

 

I remember many years ago that restoration was a big thing. Sending books to Susan Cicconi or Mark Wilson was supposed to increase value. Trimming books slightly was also supposed to be impossible to detect. I never did believe it and I am glad today I never did. For example, I knew Jason Ewert for years, bought a few books from him BEFORE he started that trimming thing but I did stop buying from him when he tried to sell me a book that I did suspect was trimmed and he didn't tell me. Trimming obviously did work well for him for a while and the honest seller he was at the beginning became the greedy and dishonest seller all people will now remember. This is sad. And the only reason it did work well is that CGC could not detect it....until they finally could and it was over.

 

Greed did push people to alter comic books and restore and/or trim them. I really think the same thing is happening again with pressing.

 

Yes, pressing, trimming, inking, etc. is all normal process WHEN the book is printed. Doing it after though alter the original condition of the book. Call it restoration, preservation, whatever, your book is no longer in its original condition.

 

I like to say that I do own books that are in their original 9.4-9.6 condition.

 

Therefore, my humble advise to any seller whom press books would be, AT THE VERY LEAST, disclose the fact when you are selling such a book.

 

I can understand that many sellers want to maximize their profit by pressing the books they have for sale. I disagree, but I understand. But I will NEVER buy from a seller whom does not disclose the fact that the book has been pressed, especially if he did it himself.

 

For those sellers whom press books AND disclose the fact, although I disagree, you have my respect.

 

Now, although, as a collector, I know I will never want to own a pressed book in my collection, as a seller, I am really tormented here.

 

I've sold raw 8.5 books that became CGC 9.6 after being pressed. Also, knowing that a book I did own for years sold for $24K after being pressed make me question myself : why should I not become a greedy seller as well ? I have the books for that. We all want to make money. I do too.

 

The only answer I found: I just can't and I don't know why...

 

Am I stupid for not pressing my books ? Maybe I am. Maybe not. Future will tell.

 

But knowing that other people are doing it really REALLY hurts. $24K is a lot of money !!

 

If you can't beat it, join it, they say.

 

I am still pondering this...

 

 

 

Here is something else to ponder......

 

The book raw in the condition you owned(FF #112) was worth somewhere around $125.00. However, you bought into what CGC was selling when you got the book slabbed. Whether you trusted their opinion on grading, or their reassurance that the book was not restored, you valued their opinion enough to get the book graded. I don't really know what your motivation was, but I have to believe that at least some of your interest was turning a 125.00 book into a book with higher value. Basically turning the $125 book into a $1000.00 book. What was your motivation here? This is the question to ask yourself....was it financially motivated or was it for CGC's reassurance of NO restoration.

 

I have no problem either way. You are just as entitled to make money off comics as anyone else. However, if you valued CGCs opinion enough to get the book graded, then you should also value their opinion on pressing. CGCs judgment is that pressing is NOT restoration. Either you trust them or you don't. You can't have it both ways. The number on the slab and the blue label are equal parts of what they are selling.

 

The book was purchased by me for one reason. To make money on. I thought the book had a solid shot as a straight 9.6 candidate on resub, without pressing, making it in effect a $2500.00 - 3000.00 book. However, there is considerable risk in that judgment. Several others(including several board members) looked at the book and thought there was no hope of any upgrade. That is part of my job. To be able to find undervalued books (either due to scarcity, supply and demand, grading or other) and distinguish whether or not something is worth purchasing. Sometimes I am right, sometimes I am wrong, but I thought the book was worth taking the chance on.

 

Doug came to my table and saw the book behind the table. He asked and I told him I was not really interested in selling the book right now, as I was going to resub it. He was willing to purchase the book at the 9.6 price, even though it was in a 9.4 holder. We both agreed that the book could probably benefit from pressing, as there was a tiny non color breaking thumb print on the right edge. We haggled for awhile and finally came to a price on the book which was satisfactory to both of us, which ended up being around the 9.6 price. (Doug also bought probably another 25 slabs from me, which I have no doubt he was intending to press and resub, so I am not exactly sure what the exact price on this particular book was).

 

I had no idea that the book would fetch 24K. Who did? I can't imagine anyone would have predicted that. I thought 10K was a realistic price for the book (uhh, did I really just type that? I guess reality has been altered a bit in the current market).

 

Doug made the same judgments that I did, only he did it better than I did. Hey, I left alot of money on the table too. About 21K. And you know what, I am happy for him. Because for every book that things work out well on, there are 5 books that don't, especially when you are paying the type of prices that he paid. He has built his business up and invested tons of time and money on it. He should reap the benefits from it.

 

Back some 16 years ago, I bought a nice JIM #1 for about $125.00 from a local comic store. The book appeared to be underpriced to me, and I knew it was a tough book, but I didn't really know how tough. I flipped the book to a dealer for $250.00. He, in turn, sold the book to Harley for $750.00 and where it went from there, I don't know. I suspect it went for at least $1000.00 though. But that is part of the game.

 

It is unfortunate that you feel like you are out all that money.

 

 

FF 112

________

 

Raw NM = $125

CGC 9.4 = $1000

Potential CGC 9.6 = $3000

CGC 9.8 = $24,000

 

 

WOW!

[THE_BEYONDER]

When the bubble finally bursts and the consumers of these products take a bath like no other....it will be interesting to see who gets labeled the `villian`.

[MCMiles]

Yes I would like to know if a comic has been pressed or not because we don't know the long term effects pressing has on comics.

 

You do realise a book is pressed and heated when it is printed. IIRC I still see some books for the 1930's in high grade slabs. Did not appear to have too negative of an effect on those books.

 

Books are also trimmed when they are printed.

 

Exactly....

 

OK, gloves off

 

This pressing thing is making me sick.....

 

Yes, I would like to know if a book has been pressed and as a collector, I would NEVER want to buy a book that has been pressed.

 

Make me think of the early ages of restoration and trimming, when a lot of people were restoring or trimming books because most people could not detect it. How many great books have been wasted because of that...

 

I remember many years ago that restoration was a big thing. Sending books to Susan Cicconi or Mark Wilson was supposed to increase value. Trimming books slightly was also supposed to be impossible to detect. I never did believe it and I am glad today I never did. For example, I knew Jason Ewert for years, bought a few books from him BEFORE he started that trimming thing but I did stop buying from him when he tried to sell me a book that I did suspect was trimmed and he didn't tell me. Trimming obviously did work well for him for a while and the honest seller he was at the beginning became the greedy and dishonest seller all people will now remember. This is sad. And the only reason it did work well is that CGC could not detect it....until they finally could and it was over.

 

Greed did push people to alter comic books and restore and/or trim them. I really think the same thing is happening again with pressing.

 

Yes, pressing, trimming, inking, etc. is all normal process WHEN the book is printed. Doing it after though alter the original condition of the book. Call it restoration, preservation, whatever, your book is no longer in its original condition.

 

I like to say that I do own books that are in their original 9.4-9.6 condition.

 

Therefore, my humble advise to any seller whom press books would be, AT THE VERY LEAST, disclose the fact when you are selling such a book.

 

I can understand that many sellers want to maximize their profit by pressing the books they have for sale. I disagree, but I understand. But I will NEVER buy from a seller whom does not disclose the fact that the book has been pressed, especially if he did it himself.

 

For those sellers whom press books AND disclose the fact, although I disagree, you have my respect.

 

Now, although, as a collector, I know I will never want to own a pressed book in my collection, as a seller, I am really tormented here.

 

I've sold raw 8.5 books that became CGC 9.6 after being pressed. Also, knowing that a book I did own for years sold for $24K after being pressed make me question myself : why should I not become a greedy seller as well ? I have the books for that. We all want to make money. I do too.

 

The only answer I found: I just can't and I don't know why...

 

Am I stupid for not pressing my books ? Maybe I am. Maybe not. Future will tell.

 

But knowing that other people are doing it really REALLY hurts. $24K is a lot of money !!

 

If you can't beat it, join it, they say.

 

I am still pondering this...

 

 

 

Here is something else to ponder......

 

The book raw in the condition you owned(FF #112) was worth somewhere around $125.00. However, you bought into what CGC was selling when you got the book slabbed. Whether you trusted their opinion on grading, or their reassurance that the book was not restored, you valued their opinion enough to get the book graded. I don't really know what your motivation was, but I have to believe that at least some of your interest was turning a 125.00 book into a book with higher value. Basically turning the $125 book into a $1000.00 book. What was your motivation here? This is the question to ask yourself....was it financially motivated or was it for CGC's reassurance of NO restoration.

 

I have no problem either way. You are just as entitled to make money off comics as anyone else. However, if you valued CGCs opinion enough to get the book graded, then you should also value their opinion on pressing. CGCs judgment is that pressing is NOT restoration. Either you trust them or you don't. You can't have it both ways. The number on the slab and the blue label are equal parts of what they are selling.

 

The book was purchased by me for one reason. To make money on. I thought the book had a solid shot as a straight 9.6 candidate on resub, without pressing, making it in effect a $2500.00 - 3000.00 book. However, there is considerable risk in that judgment. Several others(including several board members) looked at the book and thought there was no hope of any upgrade. That is part of my job. To be able to find undervalued books (either due to scarcity, supply and demand, grading or other) and distinguish whether or not something is worth purchasing. Sometimes I am right, sometimes I am wrong, but I thought the book was worth taking the chance on.

 

Doug came to my table and saw the book behind the table. He asked and I told him I was not really interested in selling the book right now, as I was going to resub it. He was willing to purchase the book at the 9.6 price, even though it was in a 9.4 holder. We both agreed that the book could probably benefit from pressing, as there was a tiny non color breaking thumb print on the right edge. We haggled for awhile and finally came to a price on the book which was satisfactory to both of us, which ended up being around the 9.6 price. (Doug also bought probably another 25 slabs from me, which I have no doubt he was intending to press and resub, so I am not exactly sure what the exact price on this particular book was).

 

I had no idea that the book would fetch 24K. Who did? I can't imagine anyone would have predicted that. I thought 10K was a realistic price for the book (uhh, did I really just type that? I guess reality has been altered a bit in the current market).

 

Doug made the same judgments that I did, only he did it better than I did. Hey, I left alot of money on the table too. About 21K. And you know what, I am happy for him. Because for every book that things work out well on, there are 5 books that don't, especially when you are paying the type of prices that he paid. He has built his business up and invested tons of time and money on it. He should reap the benefits from it.

 

Back some 16 years ago, I bought a nice JIM #1 for about $125.00 from a local comic store. The book appeared to be underpriced to me, and I knew it was a tough book, but I didn't really know how tough. I flipped the book to a dealer for $250.00. He, in turn, sold the book to Harley for $750.00 and where it went from there, I don't know. I suspect it went for at least $1000.00 though. But that is part of the game.

 

It is unfortunate that you feel like you are out all that money.

 

Great post Dale. It's also the same as flipping a book raw and not grading it these days. If you sell it for a price you thought was fair, then so be it. Bottom line is also when you deal with people, no matter where it is, and leave something on the table, you get repeat customers who will buy from you. When I sell to a dealer, I know they are making money on it, otherwise, why are they buying it from me. If people get some wins, that's cool. I know they'll be back.

 

It's only natural to feel like you left some $ on the table when someone else spots something you didn't or takes a gamble and wins. Of course, there's also losses. Take the good with the bad -- in terms of pressing, if you don't want to press, that's fine, but don't be surprised or disappointed when someone else does and makes money from it. It's going to happen, and as I've said a million times in the discussion on pressing, the practical reality is that the debate is over and pressing is here to stay. When everyone accepted CGC, they accepted their guidelines on issues like this.

 

The other thing is, like FF or somebody pointed out, everyone acts like pressing occurred in 2000 -- since I know it was going on in the 80s and 90s, I'm pretty confident that the books aren't turning to dust anytime soon, especially since it was done to some pedigree books.

 

Thanks you Dale, and Thank you Brian.

[Dick Pontoon]

I nominate the guy who started another pressing thread. Did we reach googol with this one?

[nik]

When the bubble finally bursts and the consumers of these products take a bath like no other....it will be interesting to see who gets labeled the `villian`.

 

I don't believe there are any heroes or villians in the hobby. If not for the HG market and CGC, I don't think this hobby would be where its at today or continue to strive the way it has been.

 

I remember the late 80's and early 90's where people could not give books away at shows, and I am not talking mid grade or better.

 

There will always be people with deep pockets and if/when this bubble does burst, I highly doubt it would hurt their bottom line as oppose to your basic everyday collector.

 

Realistically, if the HG market tanks this overall hobby will be right behind it. People should be happy whether you agree or disagree at the current state of affairs concerning this hobby as it sure as hell beats selling your books for pennies per pound.

[THE_BEYONDER]

When the bubble finally bursts and the consumers of these products take a bath like no other....it will be interesting to see who gets labeled the `villian`.

 

I don't believe there are any heroes or villians in the hobby. If not for the HG market and CGC, I don't think this hobby would be where its at today or continue to strive the way it has been.

 

I remember the late 80's and early 90's where people could not give books away at shows, and I am not talking mid grade or better.

 

There will always be people with deep pockets and if/when this bubble does burst, I highly doubt it would hurt their bottom line as oppose to your basic everyday collector.

 

Realistically, if the HG market tanks this overall hobby will be right behind it. People should be happy whether you agree or disagree at the current state of affairs concerning this hobby as it sure as hell beats selling your books for pennies per pound.

 

When the bubble bursts.....you can be sure that those that take a bath will be looking to assign blame. IMO......structural manipulation of grades will be at the forefront of that lynching.

[MR.COMICBOOK]

When the bubble finally bursts and the consumers of these products take a bath like no other....it will be interesting to see who gets labeled the `villian`.

 

I don't believe there are any heroes or villians in the hobby. If not for the HG market and CGC, I don't think this hobby would be where its at today or continue to strive the way it has been.

 

I remember the late 80's and early 90's where people could not give books away at shows, and I am not talking mid grade or better.

 

There will always be people with deep pockets and if/when this bubble does burst, I highly doubt it would hurt their bottom line as oppose to your basic everyday collector.

 

Realistically, if the HG market tanks this overall hobby will be right behind it. People should be happy whether you agree or disagree at the current state of affairs concerning this hobby as it sure as hell beats selling your books for pennies per pound.

I think most modern 1990s and up are dreck you can`t give away.

[Mr.Diggler]

When the bubble finally bursts and the consumers of these products take a bath like no other....it will be interesting to see who gets labeled the `villian`.

 

I don't believe there are any heroes or villians in the hobby. If not for the HG market and CGC, I don't think this hobby would be where its at today or continue to strive the way it has been.

 

I remember the late 80's and early 90's where people could not give books away at shows, and I am not talking mid grade or better.

 

There will always be people with deep pockets and if/when this bubble does burst, I highly doubt it would hurt their bottom line as oppose to your basic everyday collector.

 

Realistically, if the HG market tanks this overall hobby will be right behind it. People should be happy whether you agree or disagree at the current state of affairs concerning this hobby as it sure as hell beats selling your books for pennies per pound.

 

When the bubble bursts.....you can be sure that those that take a bath will be looking to assign blame. IMO......structural manipulation of grades will be at the forefront of that lynching.

Good point. (thumbs u

[joeypost]

When the bubble finally bursts and the consumers of these products take a bath like no other....it will be interesting to see who gets labeled the `villian`.

 

I don't believe there are any heroes or villians in the hobby. If not for the HG market and CGC, I don't think this hobby would be where its at today or continue to strive the way it has been.

 

I remember the late 80's and early 90's where people could not give books away at shows, and I am not talking mid grade or better.

 

There will always be people with deep pockets and if/when this bubble does burst, I highly doubt it would hurt their bottom line as oppose to your basic everyday collector.

 

Realistically, if the HG market tanks this overall hobby will be right behind it. People should be happy whether you agree or disagree at the current state of affairs concerning this hobby as it sure as hell beats selling your books for pennies per pound.

 

When the bubble bursts.....you can be sure that those that take a bath will be looking to assign blame. IMO......structural manipulation of grades will be at the forefront of that lynching.

 

Everyone can blame me if it will make this thread go away.

 

Yes, I am the one armed man.

[nik]

When the bubble finally bursts and the consumers of these products take a bath like no other....it will be interesting to see who gets labeled the `villian`.

 

I don't believe there are any heroes or villians in the hobby. If not for the HG market and CGC, I don't think this hobby would be where its at today or continue to strive the way it has been.

 

I remember the late 80's and early 90's where people could not give books away at shows, and I am not talking mid grade or better.

 

There will always be people with deep pockets and if/when this bubble does burst, I highly doubt it would hurt their bottom line as oppose to your basic everyday collector.

 

Realistically, if the HG market tanks this overall hobby will be right behind it. People should be happy whether you agree or disagree at the current state of affairs concerning this hobby as it sure as hell beats selling your books for pennies per pound.

 

When the bubble bursts.....you can be sure that those that take a bath will be looking to assign blame. IMO......structural manipulation of grades will be at the forefront of that lynching.

 

If the buble bursts, everyone will take a bath and there won't be anyone to point fingers too.

[Dale Roberts]

When the bubble finally bursts and the consumers of these products take a bath like no other....it will be interesting to see who gets labeled the `villian`.

 

I don't believe there are any heroes or villians in the hobby. If not for the HG market and CGC, I don't think this hobby would be where its at today or continue to strive the way it has been.

 

I remember the late 80's and early 90's where people could not give books away at shows, and I am not talking mid grade or better.

 

There will always be people with deep pockets and if/when this bubble does burst, I highly doubt it would hurt their bottom line as oppose to your basic everyday collector.

 

Realistically, if the HG market tanks this overall hobby will be right behind it. People should be happy whether you agree or disagree at the current state of affairs concerning this hobby as it sure as hell beats selling your books for pennies per pound.

 

When the bubble bursts.....you can be sure that those that take a bath will be looking to assign blame. IMO......structural manipulation of grades will be at the forefront of that lynching.

 

This is lunacy. The entirety of the hobby with the exception of about 50 people, almost all of whom are here on these boards have accepted it. If you want to place blame anywhere, place it at the doorstep of CGC. If they change their policy with regards to pressing, it will all but stop overnight.

 

Everyone who supports CGC in any way is just as responsible. If you believe that, put your money where you mouth is and no longer buy or sell CGC graded books, and no longer come on their boards. Otherwise, you are simply a hypocrite.

 

Structural manipulation of grades...........