PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[DavidTheDavid]

30 days is much too long. Life happens, but if something needs that long to resolve, then it's best to cancel the transaction for all parties anyhow.

 

Drop it two weeks from date of transaction agreement.

[bababooey]

OK so I'm going to timeline this a bit.

 

I'd like to nominate alfredP AKA "bszar" to the Probation List. This piece of *spoon* never sent me my Green Lantern 76 CGC 9.2 I purchased on April 26 for $1250. He only wrote me 2 messages. 1) his pp email 2) his confirmation of payment. (after I had asked him). He also said in the same message that he would let me know when it would ship.

 

So I see him sending you a message Sunday night telling you that he'll let you know when it will ship and on Thursday morning, having not heard anything about when it would ship you followed up with two PM's.

 

Here is what i "politely" said on Thursday

 

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#5956132 - 04/30/15 09:55 AM Re: GL76

SpideyFein

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Registered: 01/23/13

Posts: 2078

Loc: Strong Island

Hey, just wondering when you'll be shipping. I'm definitely excited for the book. Thanks.

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Then another message:

 

#5956168 - 04/30/15 10:12 AM Re: GL76

SpideyFein

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Registered: 01/23/13

Posts: 2078

Loc: Strong Island

Also, where in NY are you. I'm in Long Island.

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I have no problem with these messages, I can understand a gentle reminder to someone to make sure you're not forgotten, I don't think 3/4 days is too soon either.

However when you read his last message to you he said he'd "let you know" so in my mind you asking him again with "just wondering when" is really just a reminder to reinforce what he already told you. I don't know if there's anything you've sent here that reads like it needs a response, it's an impatient nudge from a buyer - based on his previous instruction it's redundant and doesn't necessarily require a response, it seems like ignoring these PM's has been treated as an act of war.

 

Sure he could have responded to these as a courtesy, but I don't think not acknowledging a reminder PM is probation worthy.

 

 

Protip - if you want your PM's that relate to transactions taken seriously be a bit more formal & try and avoid the 8 minutes later "also..." PM. .

 

 

If ignoring the PMs is all he did that would be just questionable business practice on a 4 figure deal.

 

This is not, however, all he did.

 

He removed himself from the PMs. The only way to do that is to delete the PM thread, to erase the evidence (on his end) of the PM discussion regarding the transaction.

 

I believe the "act of war" was the deletion of the PM chain.

There was quite a bit of chatter in the guy's sales thread prior to him removing himself from the PM thread.

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=8582706#Post8582706

I'm not sure how much people are "allowed" to publicly speculate that you're a scumbag before you can remove yourself from a PM when a deal is pending, I don't think I'd ever do it but I can see how someone might do it out of annoyance if someone is sending repetitive reminders after I've already told them I'd update them when information was available.

 

I don't see any indication the guy put SpideyFein on ignore, I'd look at that as being worse.

 

I don't know this seller at all & I have read some backstory in some Bats sales threads and it doesn't look great. - he could be bad news...

 

I just don't see why there is so much drama and urgency coming from the buyer. I can't say I've seen a smoking gun or malicious act on the part of the seller that would lead me to support a PL nomination if SpideyFein seeks & obtains a refund.

So what if he responded to a WTB before he read/responded to multiple PM's If someone tells me they'll let me know something when they have an answer for me I don't usually pester them daily. I don't think doing other business here is automatically a malicious act, certainly not in this context.

 

 

I'm going to go with NEVER, as to when a seller can delete all PM's regarding a pending transaction, including payment and shipping information, when he's accepted full payment and the buyer has yet to receive the item nor any confirmation/further information as to shipping.

 

They don't have anything to do with one another. "Chatter" doesn't mean a seller can attempt to delete all traces of PM conversations regarding a transaction within which he is in the midst.

 

Looking at what transpired in that thread. The listing, quick sale, seller attentive posting in the thread and in PM's, then the commentary begins about him selling it too cheap, about waiting in the wings to take it, about it being a steal, then the seller goes silent, then the seller deletes PM's, then the seller (the same one that was quick to answer questions before) decides to stop answering all questions and shred the trail on his end....can you see how someone with $1250 he immediately paid may get a sick feeling in his stomach that it's all gone wrong?

 

I agree with you that In terms of PL nominations. If SpideyFein seeks and gets a refund it would diminish the need for putting this seller on this list UNLESS information comes to light that the book was sold to someone else for above the asking price SpideyFein agreed to pay and did indeed pay.

 

Yeah I wasn't speaking to deleting historical PM messages, I was referring to just removing yourself out of frustration if someone is pestering you.

 

Deleting messages is a bad sign but I don't know if anything that he'd deleted was of a critical nature, clearly the "I'll let you know when it ships" message was received & remembered - the point I was making was that the message was ignored by the buyer and then negative assumptions were made leading to what he did.

 

HBD C4F

 

[bababooey]

:

 

I just don't see why there is so much drama and urgency coming from the buyer. I can't say I've seen a smoking gun or malicious act on the part of the seller that would lead me to support a PL nomination if SpideyFein seeks & obtains a refund.

So what if he responded to a WTB before he read/responded to multiple PM's If someone tells me they'll let me know something when they have an answer for me I don't usually pester them daily. I don't think doing other business here is automatically a malicious act, certainly not in this context.

 

Maybe our rules are the problem. Someone sends me $1200, I'm going to mail the book out asap unless there is another deal pending and then I'm going to communicate with the person all the time.

 

Why would someone even think of holding a book once it's paid for unless they have clearly spelled out something before...such as they are working and need to wait for the weekend?

 

I can understand a buyer wanting to wait to pay and that time period taking a drop longer (although I don't do that myself) but shipping once the item is paid for needs to be immediate, UNLESS there is specific agreed to and constant communication.

 

As we've seen in the past, COMMUNICATION is key.

 

This person is not communicating with Spidey...Are the seller's feeling hurt because Spidey asked about the book? OK, maybe...but don't sell something if you are so sensitive you can't communicate. The seller is not a teen dealing with a parent, he's dealing with someone who sent him money promptly.

 

At least I hope he's not a teen.

 

Once again, I think 30 days are too long before putting someone who acts badly on the probation list. I'd cut shipping (and receipt of the item) with no agreement for it to take longer, to 15 days unless you are shipping out of the Country.

 

 

 

I've suggested shorter timelines a few months ago and while I agree communication shouldn't ever break down - I'm not sure what sort of timeline would have worked with this one.

I agree with your point that those who can't communicate shouldn't sell here - I'd also add that there might be a few here who shouldn't buy if they can't bear to wait a couple weeks without going Col Jessup and ordering the "code red".

[comix4fun]

"I agree with you that In terms of PL nominations. If SpideyFein seeks and gets a refund it would diminish the need for putting this seller on this list UNLESS information comes to light that the book was sold to someone else for above the asking price SpideyFein agreed to pay and did indeed pay."

 

Suppose someone lists a book for $500. A buyer instantly jumps on it. The seller thinks, "Jeez, that was fast, let me check GPA. ... Ohmygawd, 90-day GPA is $1,500! I'm just gonna refund the buyer's money and list this book on eBay."

 

PL worthy? Honest question.

 

 

 

 

My thoughts are....if it's suit worthy it's certainly PL worthy.

 

These are binding contracts we are entering into here, between adults and all that jazz. I've under-priced items before only to discover that I messed up. A deal's a deal.

 

This isn't a scrivener's error where the decimal is in the wrong place or the keyboard made it a "1" instead of a "2" where corrections would be allowed given the context. If someone earnestly put a price down and someone buys it, it's a deal.

 

In this case, you've got a listing, a purchase, an invoice and a payment made all before the seller went silent. So it's even further down the road of a deal than your hypothesis.

 

 

[comix4fun]

OK so I'm going to timeline this a bit.

 

I'd like to nominate alfredP AKA "bszar" to the Probation List. This piece of *spoon* never sent me my Green Lantern 76 CGC 9.2 I purchased on April 26 for $1250. He only wrote me 2 messages. 1) his pp email 2) his confirmation of payment. (after I had asked him). He also said in the same message that he would let me know when it would ship.

 

So I see him sending you a message Sunday night telling you that he'll let you know when it will ship and on Thursday morning, having not heard anything about when it would ship you followed up with two PM's.

 

Here is what i "politely" said on Thursday

 

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#5956132 - 04/30/15 09:55 AM Re: GL76

SpideyFein

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Registered: 01/23/13

Posts: 2078

Loc: Strong Island

Hey, just wondering when you'll be shipping. I'm definitely excited for the book. Thanks.

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Then another message:

 

#5956168 - 04/30/15 10:12 AM Re: GL76

SpideyFein

Chatzilla

 

 

Registered: 01/23/13

Posts: 2078

Loc: Strong Island

Also, where in NY are you. I'm in Long Island.

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I have no problem with these messages, I can understand a gentle reminder to someone to make sure you're not forgotten, I don't think 3/4 days is too soon either.

However when you read his last message to you he said he'd "let you know" so in my mind you asking him again with "just wondering when" is really just a reminder to reinforce what he already told you. I don't know if there's anything you've sent here that reads like it needs a response, it's an impatient nudge from a buyer - based on his previous instruction it's redundant and doesn't necessarily require a response, it seems like ignoring these PM's has been treated as an act of war.

 

Sure he could have responded to these as a courtesy, but I don't think not acknowledging a reminder PM is probation worthy.

 

 

Protip - if you want your PM's that relate to transactions taken seriously be a bit more formal & try and avoid the 8 minutes later "also..." PM. .

 

 

If ignoring the PMs is all he did that would be just questionable business practice on a 4 figure deal.

 

This is not, however, all he did.

 

He removed himself from the PMs. The only way to do that is to delete the PM thread, to erase the evidence (on his end) of the PM discussion regarding the transaction.

 

I believe the "act of war" was the deletion of the PM chain.

There was quite a bit of chatter in the guy's sales thread prior to him removing himself from the PM thread.

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=8582706#Post8582706

I'm not sure how much people are "allowed" to publicly speculate that you're a scumbag before you can remove yourself from a PM when a deal is pending, I don't think I'd ever do it but I can see how someone might do it out of annoyance if someone is sending repetitive reminders after I've already told them I'd update them when information was available.

 

I don't see any indication the guy put SpideyFein on ignore, I'd look at that as being worse.

 

I don't know this seller at all & I have read some backstory in some Bats sales threads and it doesn't look great. - he could be bad news...

 

I just don't see why there is so much drama and urgency coming from the buyer. I can't say I've seen a smoking gun or malicious act on the part of the seller that would lead me to support a PL nomination if SpideyFein seeks & obtains a refund.

So what if he responded to a WTB before he read/responded to multiple PM's If someone tells me they'll let me know something when they have an answer for me I don't usually pester them daily. I don't think doing other business here is automatically a malicious act, certainly not in this context.

 

 

I'm going to go with NEVER, as to when a seller can delete all PM's regarding a pending transaction, including payment and shipping information, when he's accepted full payment and the buyer has yet to receive the item nor any confirmation/further information as to shipping.

 

They don't have anything to do with one another. "Chatter" doesn't mean a seller can attempt to delete all traces of PM conversations regarding a transaction within which he is in the midst.

 

Looking at what transpired in that thread. The listing, quick sale, seller attentive posting in the thread and in PM's, then the commentary begins about him selling it too cheap, about waiting in the wings to take it, about it being a steal, then the seller goes silent, then the seller deletes PM's, then the seller (the same one that was quick to answer questions before) decides to stop answering all questions and shred the trail on his end....can you see how someone with $1250 he immediately paid may get a sick feeling in his stomach that it's all gone wrong?

 

I agree with you that In terms of PL nominations. If SpideyFein seeks and gets a refund it would diminish the need for putting this seller on this list UNLESS information comes to light that the book was sold to someone else for above the asking price SpideyFein agreed to pay and did indeed pay.

 

Yeah I wasn't speaking to deleting historical PM messages, I was referring to just removing yourself out of frustration if someone is pestering you.

 

Deleting messages is a bad sign but I don't know if anything that he'd deleted was of a critical nature, clearly the "I'll let you know when it ships" message was received & remembered - the point I was making was that the message was ignored by the buyer and then negative assumptions were made leading to what he did.

 

HBD C4F

 

Thanks.

 

I get that. It's just that the only way to "remove" yourself from a PM is to delete the PM string. So they're the same thing. With a pending deal it's a really bad idea to erase the intra-transaction discussion.

[bababooey]

I would say let/help Spideyfein get either the book or the money back FIRST then we can debate the rest of this junk later.

I agree with that.

 

I'm not responding to Squiggy's unjust enrichment question clearly that was for comix4fun.

[wombat]

The name change a day after the sale doesn't help make the seller look good either.

[CAHokie]

The name change a day after the sale doesn't help make the seller look good either.

 

I find that part a bit suspicious as well.

[PovertyRow]

The name change a day after the sale doesn't help make the seller look good either.

 

I find that part a bit suspicious as well.

 

I find a name change a bit suspicious as well. Combined with PM deletion and holding on to $1250 for 10 days? A lot suspicious.

 

[PovertyRow]

I've suggested shorter timelines a few months ago and while I agree communication shouldn't ever break down - I'm not sure what sort of timeline would have worked with this one.

I agree with your point that those who can't communicate shouldn't sell here - I'd also add that there might be a few here who shouldn't buy if they can't bear to wait a couple weeks without going Col Jessup and ordering the "code red".

 

This is not just waiting a couple of weeks. It is the day-after name change, holding onto $1250 for so far 10 days and deleting PMs relating to the sale. Would these things combined keep you patient?

[DR.X]

The name change a day after the sale doesn't help make the seller look good either.

 

I find that part a bit suspicious as well.

 

Combined with PM deletion and holding on to $1250 for 10 days? A lot suspicious.I find a name change a bit suspicious as well.

 

Does he think no one will notice it.

 

This whole thing stinks to high heaven, period. An expensive book like this should be in the mail the next day or two with tracking info forwarded to the buyer. That's alot of money to have this seller go silent, and I"m not giving him the benefit of a doubt at this time.

[Bomber-Bob]

My gut tells me the seller is reading all this and is hoping SpideyFein requests a refund. He doesn't want to sell the book at his listed price and is waiting out his 30 days. If SpideyFein requests a refund, technically, the seller is off the hook. He is gaming the system.

My gut also tells me there is another buyer with a new negotiated price waiting for this to play out.

We will never know about the sale because the book will be resubmitted (another suggestion in the Sales thread BTW). Does anyone else feel all those comments in the thread is the root cause here. It alerted the seller and this is the result. Again, sad.

[Red84]

My gut tells me the seller is reading all this and is hoping SpideyFein requests a refund. He doesn't want to sell the book at his listed price and is waiting out his 30 days. If SpideyFein requests a refund, technically, the seller is off the hook. He is gaming the system.

My gut also tells me there is another buyer with a new negotiated price waiting for this to play out.

We will never know about the sale because the book will be resubmitted (another suggestion in the Sales thread BTW). Does anyone else feel all those comments in the thread is the root cause here. It alerted the seller and this is the result. Again, sad.

 

If he gets a paypal refund he can still nominate him for the Probation List which effectively severely limits a member's ability to sell going forward.

[thehumantorch]

My gut tells me the seller is reading all this and is hoping SpideyFein requests a refund. He doesn't want to sell the book at his listed price and is waiting out his 30 days. If SpideyFein requests a refund, technically, the seller is off the hook. He is gaming the system.

My gut also tells me there is another buyer with a new negotiated price waiting for this to play out.

We will never know about the sale because the book will be resubmitted (another suggestion in the Sales thread BTW). Does anyone else feel all those comments in the thread is the root cause here. It alerted the seller and this is the result. Again, sad.

 

Clearly the request for a refund is to make the buyer whole, not to agreeably reverse the transaction for both parties. The buyer should get the refund and the seller should go on the probation list until the contract between the buyer and seller is completed.

 

And deleting the original buyer/seller pm thread could be a mistake but ignoring followup pms is a clear indication that the seller doesn't plan to complete the sale - unless he plans to blame his slow twin brother.....

[jaybuck43]

My gut tells me the seller is reading all this and is hoping SpideyFein requests a refund. He doesn't want to sell the book at his listed price and is waiting out his 30 days. If SpideyFein requests a refund, technically, the seller is off the hook. He is gaming the system.

My gut also tells me there is another buyer with a new negotiated price waiting for this to play out.

We will never know about the sale because the book will be resubmitted (another suggestion in the Sales thread BTW). Does anyone else feel all those comments in the thread is the root cause here. It alerted the seller and this is the result. Again, sad.

 

If he gets a paypal refund he can still nominate him for the Probation List which effectively severely limits a member's ability to sell going forward.

 

I think Bob's point isn't that he will relist it but rather that a shadow buyer already exists and has negotiated a sale for the book (let's say for $1800 instead of the initial $1250). The new buyer already, or will, complete the sale and get the book and SpideyFein is out on his butt waiting for paypal to reverse the charge. Meanwhile I am sure there are several board members who have PMed him asking if he has any other books for sale, hoping for another low cost key. So even if he is on the PL or HoS life will continue to go on.

[CAHokie]

Dr. X, it would not surprise me if he did think no one would notice. If someone is here strictly for the sales threads, they may not know how attentive active board members are to the name change thread. Of course, he would have to be a bit dense not to realize that his name in his past sales thread itself changes along with it.

 

I tend to agree with you Bomber that the comments might have contributed a lot to this problem. I never know whether comments like those are just people typing with innocent intentions not realizing how it sounds or with sour grapes that they missed out.

[HarveySwick]

The comments in the thread.

 

And this should serve as yet another cautionary tale: if a deal seems too good to be true, it probably is unless the seller is someone you can trust. This guy had around 50 posts with no posts outside of the sales forum or WTB threads.

 

I hope there are no issues and you get your money back Dan.

[Dano]

This is just some sad stuff. A waste of a reputation over a few dollars. Although I read somewhere that greed is good. Well, I don't wanna be good if that's the case.

 

Dan

Edited May 5, 2015 by Dano

[bababooey]

I've suggested shorter timelines a few months ago and while I agree communication shouldn't ever break down - I'm not sure what sort of timeline would have worked with this one.

I agree with your point that those who can't communicate shouldn't sell here - I'd also add that there might be a few here who shouldn't buy if they can't bear to wait a couple weeks without going Col Jessup and ordering the "code red".

 

This is not just waiting a couple of weeks. It is the day-after name change, holding onto $1250 for so far 10 days and deleting PMs relating to the sale. Would these things combined keep you patient?

Well I don't know when the seller requested the name change and no one does but the mods/admins.

You've requested name changes in the past, how quickly are those handled? I see what is posted and to me it looks like a mod goes in periodically to "work the name change queue" & in this case, did three at a time.

 

So I hit notify on the name change post asking that the "request time" be added/edited in, explaining why it may be a clue as to whether the board member is making some feeble attempt to avoid this sale or whether he requested the name change prior to the sale even taking place.

[PovertyRow]

I changed my name twice. To Googa then back to Pov. In both instances it was handled on the same day.

 

About a month or so ago I submitted a new name change request but decided it would be inappropriate so edited the request and said I had changed my mind. Got a reply acknowledging the withdrawn request from Admin the same day. Just my experiences.

Edited May 5, 2015 by PovertyRow