CGC Signature Series Jan 2010 - Present Q & A Thread

[somewhereintexas]

It would not be much different than when CGC finally acknowledged that it needed to create a new label for SS books that had restoration. It wasn't that long ago that a book that would otherwise qualify for a yellow label would receive the PLOD, and not the yellow label with purple strip at the top. The worst thing before is that the label didn't even indicate that the signature had been witnessed. On the label, CGC described it the same as unverified signatures on green labels (i.e., "name written on cover in marker"). The only way you could tell that the signature had been witnessed was to get the graders' notes.

[jonjesper]

Precedence with CGC makes things like this very difficult. Whomever decides to bring this to the decision makers at CGC better have some solid information. Good luck! I never thought they would make a Dave Stevens Covers Vanity Set for the Registry and that happened, so you never know!

[Benjamin Grimm]

In the Comics General thread on this, someone pointed out that this could possibly open up a racket for forgeries. While a valid point, perhaps CGC could simply require a COA from a reputable source to qualify from the suggested new label. Dynamic Forces for example, or other such bigger name, recognized shops and dealers. That way while CGC isn't verifying the signature, there would still be "proof" that the non CGC witnessed signature isn't a hoax...

[mschmidt]

In the Comics General thread on this, someone pointed out that this could possibly open up a racket for forgeries. While a valid point, perhaps CGC could simply require a COA from a reputable source to qualify from the suggested new label. Dynamic Forces for example, or other such bigger name, recognized shops and dealers. That way while CGC isn't verifying the signature, there would still be "proof" that the non CGC witnessed signature isn't a hoax...

 

COAs don't really work as "proof", though - what's to say the COA actually belongs to the book in question?

[seanfingh]

 

That is my point. The yellow label is what it is. We all love it for what it is. If you want to have your unauthenticated signed books slabbed, do it. But to complain about the Green label is disingenuous. Creating a third label, not quite as good as Yellow, but "better" than a green doesn't make sense to me.

 

Some books don't belong in slabs. Most unauthenticated sig books fall in that category. If you really want them in slabs for your collection, do it. But I think what people are really saying is "I'd like to boost up the value of all these oldass Dynamic Forces books I have."

 

I mean no disrespect to the proponents, but it serves to do nothing other than erode away and weaken the yellow label.

[Benjamin Grimm]

That is my point. The yellow label is what it is. We all love it for what it is. If you want to have your unauthenticated signed books slabbed, do it. But to complain about the Green label is disingenuous. Creating a third label, not quite as good as Yellow, but "better" than a green doesn't make sense to me.

 

Some books don't belong in slabs. Most unauthenticated sig books fall in that category. If you really want them in slabs for your collection, do it. But I think what people are really saying is "I'd like to boost up the value of all these oldass Dynamic Forces books I have."

 

I mean no disrespect to the proponents, but it serves to do nothing other than erode away and weaken the yellow label.

 

I see what you're saying, seanfingh, but perhaps I may fall in the minority here, because I see them as two totally different things. For me, I do have Yellow Label slabs, and I love them. The DF and such comics I have are something different. It isn't so much a complaint about the green label, as the request for accurate identification. Green label is associated with book damage, and unwitnessed signatures aren't damage. While I'm glad they don't slam the grade from them under the Green Label, it would just be nice to have it separated from the Label given to clipped coupons and missing chunks/pages and such.

 

For me, the addition of a designated "Unwittnessed Signature" wouldn't detract from my desire to have certain Yellow Label, witness signature books. But that's just me, and I suppose I can see where some would rather claim to have a signed book under a new label rather than going through what is required to get the Yellow Label.

[seanfingh]

That is my point. The yellow label is what it is. We all love it for what it is. If you want to have your unauthenticated signed books slabbed, do it. But to complain about the Green label is disingenuous. Creating a third label, not quite as good as Yellow, but "better" than a green doesn't make sense to me.

 

Some books don't belong in slabs. Most unauthenticated sig books fall in that category. If you really want them in slabs for your collection, do it. But I think what people are really saying is "I'd like to boost up the value of all these oldass Dynamic Forces books I have."

 

I mean no disrespect to the proponents, but it serves to do nothing other than erode away and weaken the yellow label.

 

I see what you're saying, seanfingh, but perhaps I may fall in the minority here, because I see them as two totally different things. For me, I do have Yellow Label slabs, and I love them. The DF and such comics I have are something different. It isn't so much a complaint about the green label, as the request for accurate identification. Green label is associated with book damage, and unwitnessed signatures aren't damage. While I'm glad they don't slam the grade from them under the Green Label, it would just be nice to have it separated from the Label given to clipped coupons and missing chunks/pages and such.

 

For me, the addition of a designated "Unwittnessed Signature" wouldn't detract from my desire to have certain Yellow Label, witness signature books. But that's just me, and I suppose I can see where some would rather claim to have a signed book under a new label rather than going through what is required to get the Yellow Label.

 

Here is what CGC has to say about its own Green Label. There is nothing about book damage. That has nothing to do with it. It has to do with defects and the nature of the defects. And make no bones about it, to the vast majority of the collecting world, a signature, whether witnessed or unwitnessed, is a defect:

 

"A Qualified label is used by CGC for certified books that have a significant defect that needs specific description, or to note an unauthenticated signature (one which was not witnessed by CGC). For example, it would be a disservice to the seller and buyer to call a VF/NM book with a 4-inch back cover tear a VG, so CGC will give this book a Qualified grade of "VF/NM 9.0, back cover 4-inch tear." Or, if the book is signed on the cover it may be noted as "Name Written on Cover."

[jonjesper]

Case closed. Next on the agenda...

[Stein]

Can you claify for me? When you say that the vast majority of the collecting world considers a signature as a defect, are you being specific to comics? In the world of historical figure signatures, which is probably 99% of signature collecting including comics, I have never seen that to be the case. The amount of money spent on comics pales in comparison to historical figures. I know a Button Gwinnett signature had a $3 million offer and it was turned down. The closest comic to come to that was a 9.0 Action #1 and after the Action #1, Detective #27, and a couple of others, the prices drop significantly. The Historical Society considers a signature as a piece of history to be cherished.

 

Also, this weekend at the New Orleans convention, I'll see what CGC has to say about a new label.

[seanfingh]

Can you claify for me? When you say that the vast majority of the collecting world considers a signature as a defect, are you being specific to comics? In the world of historical figure signatures, which is probably 99% of signature collecting including comics, I have never seen that to be the case. The amount of money spent on comics pales in comparison to historical figures. I know a Button Gwinnett signature had a $3 million offer and it was turned down. The closest comic to come to that was a 9.0 Action #1 and after the Action #1, Detective #27, and a couple of others, the prices drop significantly. The Historical Society considers a signature as a piece of history to be cherished.

 

Also, this weekend at the New Orleans convention, I'll see what CGC has to say about a new label.

 

Yes, I am speaking only about comics. I don't collect anything else. Here is a flower because you seem to really be getting twisted up about this. I love autographed comics more than 99.999999% of the world. I understand that you might be the .0000001%. My argument is much more about the nature of the yellow label than about anything else. I am against CGC changing its business model and eroding the yellow label at all costs. I believe this "new color label" will do just that.

[Stein]

I am impressed by your comittment to the status quo. Thanks for the flower and the slightly condescending line about me. I wouldn't say that I'm twisted up. I just see a problem and have a solution. I'll argue for and you'll argue against and we'll see what CGC does. I'll be happy enough if they read this, consider it, and then make a decision. They did make the Laker label and they did get rid of the red label so there have been changes over time and I don't think those changes nor a new color label for unwitnessed signatures have or will erode the nature of the yellow label or any label currently in existance. They have also changed the rules to witnessing signatures, changed prices, and changed who runs the SS so changes do happen. I love signatures probably as much as you and only want the best. There's just a disagreement on what the best is. I'd love to show you my collection some day. I have about 4000 yellow label comics. I think you'd like it. Thanks for the debate. It is intersting.

[Darrell F]

As someone that owns multiple green label comics due to Dynamic Forces books I just do not see the need for a new label. I would much rather CGC get caught up on their grading times instead of wasting more time creating labels of different colors.

[seanfingh]

There's just a disagreement on what the best is.

 

That is really the essence of it. In my opinion the creation of the yellow label certification, while not perfect, has eliminated many of the problems that abounded in the 80's and 90's with forged signatures, bad COA's and outright fraud. This new label would open the door to certification that is subject to those same old bugaboos and threatens the integrity of the yellow label.

 

I'd love to show you my collection some day. I have about 4000 yellow label comics. I think you'd like it. Thanks for the debate. It is intersting.

 

You should share your collection far more often than you do. I know where a lot of the best SS books in the world reside. That doesn't mean I am going to capitulate. In fact, you are a person that has more invested in the yellow label than i do. Come back from the dark side . . .

[Stein]

If I had time I would scan them all and get them on the registry. I believe I would have the #1 registry set in over 100 categories. As far as my label idea, I'm just throwing it out there and seeing if there is interest. If not, then at least it was discussed. I really would be happy with that.

[chainnball]

If I had time I would scan them all and get them on the registry. I believe I would have the #1 registry set in over 100 categories. As far as my label idea, I'm just throwing it out there and seeing if there is interest. If not, then at least it was discussed. I really would be happy with that.

 

Michael

[mysterio]

I have a question about the PDF form for SS books available online. I was going to fill it out in advance for WW New Orleans with the 3 books I'm planning to take. On one book I am planning to get two signatures. In the right column there is a box to check for "Additional Services" for a $5 charge for "Additonal Signature Same Show". Does this mean that I have to pay an extra $5 per additional signature that I get on my own books? I agree that if CGC is facilitating the signatures that I should have to pay extra, but since I will be getting them in person (with the witness) I just want to make sure I get it right. I've never done a multi-signed in person, only through a facilitator.

 

Question two, if the other two books on this form are only getting one signature apiece can they still go on a form that has a book getting a second signature? If I have to put them on a few form that would be irritating (and no longer worth it) in light of this new $5 per invoice charge.

 

If this is going to be too hard/expensive I'll just stick to one signature per book (the second is the colorist, but I like multisigned when the people are going to be there anyway). I don't mind paying an extra $5 if I have to, but splitting onto a second form would be a no-go. Any advice would be appreciated!

[mikeggg]

had a question regarding a situation regarding a comic that I have I wanted to know the result of a comic with a signature and taking it to be auto'd again by the same person. Would the grade drop or would it get a qualified and yellow label. Thanks for any help

[mschmidt]

There's no such thing as a "qualified and yellow label", as yellow labels are, by default, already qualified (the grade ignores one big defect - a signature or sketch).

 

Your book would come back in a yellow label with a significant grade drop for the prior, unverified signature.

 

 

[orfew]

I may be asking for a beating here but I actually like the idea of a new label. I am not sure how a new lable would in any way degrade or erode the qualoty of the yellow lable. I think the market should decide the question. One possible outcome of a new lable would be that the desireability of the yellow lable might in fact increase. The other lable would still sell but these would be second tier books.

 

One final reason, there are many deceased artists and this makes the yellow lable impossible for books signed by them. However, a new lable would enable you to encapsulate the book with a signature of a deceased artist without the stigma of a qualified lable.

[mschmidt]

I may be asking for a beating here but I actually like the idea of a new label. I am not sure how a new lable would in any way degrade or erode the qualoty of the yellow lable. I think the market should decide the question. One possible outcome of a new lable would be that the desireability of the yellow lable might in fact increase. The other lable would still sell but these would be second tier books.

 

One final reason, there are many deceased artists and this makes the yellow lable impossible for books signed by them. However, a new lable would enable you to encapsulate the book with a signature of a deceased artist without the stigma of a qualified lable.

 

Which is why CGC will never introduce a new label for this. There's zero benefit to CGC in them endorsing an unverified signature in any way, shape or form - all it does is muddle the waters for their Signature Series label.