Hulk #181 CGC 9.8...record GPA low

[Timmay]

 

 

Certification # 0762545001

Grade Date 05/15/2006

Title Incredible Hulk

Issue 181

Issue Date 11/74

Publisher Marvel Comics

Country

Variant

Pedigree

Category Universal

Grade 8.0

Page Quality OFF-WHITE TO WHITE

Grade Text

Art Comments Len Wein story

Herb Trimpe and Jack Abel art

Herb Trimpe cover

Key Comments 1st full appearance of Wolverine.

Wendigo appearance.

Issue Year 1974

 

[PolarSilver]

Yes, the slab is cracked. Also, the sticker on the top edge with the '9.6' is separate (cut in the middle) from the title 'Hulk 181'. The serial number doesn't matche the '9.6' but instead matches a '8.0'.

 

 

How did you find that out? Did you run through all the grades on the verify certification grade box until you had one that hit?

 

CGC certs can't be verified without the exact cert number, issue number, AND grade now, and that's been that way since last year or so.

 

 

That's exactly what I did. You can read the cert number in my photo...and it doesn't match up with a 9.6...but it does match up with 8.0

[Spiderphill]

Looks like a solid swap job. Kind of scary, if he put a 9.2 in there it would be a lot harder to tell.

[Triton27]

It seems pretty obvious that he cracked it open looking at those pics. I know one of the guys that got ripped off on the 9.8's said that he used a 8.5 on his.

 

I saw this guy purchased an 8.5 in his feedback and I got a bad feeling for all buyers. I know there were about 6+ auctions of 9.6 & 9.8's.

 

The irony is that this jack a** has enough $ to go out and get a real 9.8....maybe two!

[Triton27]

9.4 or 9.2 would be tough to tell....but god forbid, that would cut into his profit margin

[Brian48]

Wow. Whoever did this is truly an . This happened to me once a few years ago, but not with a comic. I had purchased a PSA graded Bobby Orr rookie card that was supposed to be PSA 7. I noticed something funny with the slab and the condition was not quite consistent with the grade. I sent it to PSA for investigation and they confirmed the slab was tampered with. When I contacted the seller (who had great ratings by the way), he gave me a hard time and would not refund my money. I had to file a fraud claim and jump through hoops with Paypal to get my money back.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Yes, the slab is cracked. Also, the sticker on the top edge with the '9.6' is separate (cut in the middle) from the title 'Hulk 181'. The serial number doesn't matche the '9.6' but instead matches a '8.0'.

 

 

How did you find that out? Did you run through all the grades on the verify certification grade box until you had one that hit?

 

CGC certs can't be verified without the exact cert number, issue number, AND grade now, and that's been that way since last year or so.

 

 

That's exactly what I did. You can read the cert number in my photo...and it doesn't match up with a 9.6...but it does match up with 8.0

 

Very nice.

 

Now, how was the 8.0 cert made into a 9.6? Can you tell?

[RockMyAmadeus]

Oh, and to anyone reading...

 

"Buy the book, not the label" will help you out tremendously in this situation. A 9.6 would quite obviously not look that horrific...if you know what you're looking at.

[violentluke]

Thats exactly why I buy the book not the label..

[Iceman399]

I could try to take pictures if it would help....I'm new here and I haven't figured out how to attach pics yet.

 

It would help.

 

Make an account at Photobucket, upload the pics, then click the "IMG code" bar. It will automatically copy the HTML required, and then paste it here. Voila! pics.

 

 

 

 

Let's see if this works:

 

http://s1109.photobucket.com/albums/h423/PolarSilver/

 

Top right front cover...is that not all creased? clearly not a 9.6.

[Hammerhead]

Boy what a horrible situation. I hope ebay/paypal makes things right for anyone who got scammed by this loser!!

[The Kaptain]

 

 

Certification # 0762545001

Grade Date 05/15/2006

Title Incredible Hulk

Issue 181

Issue Date 11/74

Publisher Marvel Comics

Country

Variant

Pedigree

Category Universal

Grade 8.0

Page Quality OFF-WHITE TO WHITE

Grade Text

Art Comments Len Wein story

Herb Trimpe and Jack Abel art

Herb Trimpe cover

Key Comments 1st full appearance of Wolverine.

Wendigo appearance.

Issue Year 1974

 

If the serial number matches an 8.0 and the book likely is an 8.0, I would say that this is a case of a misprinted label by CGC. Isn't the "9.6" printed on the label (not a sticker)? I have seem examples of CGC misprinting labels before, but I have never seen the grade misprinted before.

 

I would think that if he swapped labels, he would swap the entire label not just the number grade.

 

[PolarSilver]

I could try to take pictures if it would help....I'm new here and I haven't figured out how to attach pics yet.

 

It would help.

 

Make an account at Photobucket, upload the pics, then click the "IMG code" bar. It will automatically copy the HTML required, and then paste it here. Voila! pics.

 

 

 

 

Let's see if this works:

 

http://s1109.photobucket.com/albums/h423/PolarSilver/

 

Top right front cover...is that not all creased? clearly not a 9.6.

 

Yes, creased AND stained ... the other corners are pretty rough as well....these were the first 'red flags' when I opened the package.

[PolarSilver]

 

 

Certification # 0762545001

Grade Date 05/15/2006

Title Incredible Hulk

Issue 181

Issue Date 11/74

Publisher Marvel Comics

Country

Variant

Pedigree

Category Universal

Grade 8.0

Page Quality OFF-WHITE TO WHITE

Grade Text

Art Comments Len Wein story

Herb Trimpe and Jack Abel art

Herb Trimpe cover

Key Comments 1st full appearance of Wolverine.

Wendigo appearance.

Issue Year 1974

 

If the serial number matches an 8.0 and the book likely is an 8.0, I would say that this is a case of a misprinted label by CGC. Isn't the "9.6" printed on the label (not a sticker)? I have seem examples of CGC misprinting labels before, but I have never seen the grade misprinted before.

 

I would think that if he swapped labels, he would swap the entire label not just the number grade.

 

That's still a mystery for me; I'm not sure how that aspect was done.

 

However, I believe this was entirely intentional and not merely a misprint. The sticker on the 'spine' is in two pieces ...meaning the "Incredible Hulk #181" is separate fromthe "9.6". Also, I've just discovered only this morning that the "Incredible Hulk #181" portion is stuck over another sticker : "Wolverine: Origins #5".

[CR]

I would think that if he swapped labels, he would swap the entire label not just the number grade.

 

 

Yeah, I'm not understanding this scam either (not saying it isn't a scam, I just don't get the logistics).

 

So we think he took an 8.0 slab, cracked the back of it somehow, and replaced the 8.0 sticker with a 9.6 one? Are those really just stickers?

 

Can't believe he thought he'd get away with that.

 

I think the better scam would be:

Buy a 9.6.

Buy a raw or 8.0+ CGC book.

Somehow swap the 8.0 book into the 9.6 case or the 9.6 label into the 8.0 case.

Resub the 9.6 book.

 

 

 

[mschmidt]

 

 

Certification # 0762545001

Grade Date 05/15/2006

Title Incredible Hulk

Issue 181

Issue Date 11/74

Publisher Marvel Comics

Country

Variant

Pedigree

Category Universal

Grade 8.0

Page Quality OFF-WHITE TO WHITE

Grade Text

Art Comments Len Wein story

Herb Trimpe and Jack Abel art

Herb Trimpe cover

Key Comments 1st full appearance of Wolverine.

Wendigo appearance.

Issue Year 1974

 

If the serial number matches an 8.0 and the book likely is an 8.0, I would say that this is a case of a misprinted label by CGC. Isn't the "9.6" printed on the label (not a sticker)? I have seem examples of CGC misprinting labels before, but I have never seen the grade misprinted before.

 

I would think that if he swapped labels, he would swap the entire label not just the number grade.

 

That's still a mystery for me; I'm not sure how that aspect was done.

 

However, I believe this was entirely intentional and not merely a misprint. The sticker on the 'spine' is in two pieces ...meaning the "Incredible Hulk #181" is separate fromthe "9.6". Also, I've just discovered only this morning that the "Incredible Hulk #181" portion is stuck over another sticker : "Wolverine: Origins #5".

 

So he took two labels (one for a 8.0 Hulk #181 and one for a 9.6 Wolverine Origins #5) - cut the 8.0 part from the Hulk #181 label, and then glued it on top of the Wolverine Origins #5 label?

[mysterio]

Certification # 0762545001

Grade Date 05/15/2006

Title Incredible Hulk

Issue 181

Issue Date 11/74

Publisher Marvel Comics

Country

Variant

Pedigree

Category Universal

Grade 8.0

Page Quality OFF-WHITE TO WHITE

Grade Text

Art Comments Len Wein story

Herb Trimpe and Jack Abel art

Herb Trimpe cover

Key Comments 1st full appearance of Wolverine.

Wendigo appearance.

Issue Year 1974

 

If the serial number matches an 8.0 and the book likely is an 8.0, I would say that this is a case of a misprinted label by CGC. Isn't the "9.6" printed on the label (not a sticker)? I have seem examples of CGC misprinting labels before, but I have never seen the grade misprinted before.

 

I would think that if he swapped labels, he would swap the entire label not just the number grade.

 

That's still a mystery for me; I'm not sure how that aspect was done.

 

However, I believe this was entirely intentional and not merely a misprint. The sticker on the 'spine' is in two pieces ...meaning the "Incredible Hulk #181" is separate fromthe "9.6". Also, I've just discovered only this morning that the "Incredible Hulk #181" portion is stuck over another sticker : "Wolverine: Origins #5".

 

So he took two labels (one for a 8.0 Hulk #181 and one for a 9.6 Wolverine Origins #5) - cut the 8.0 part from the Hulk #181 label, and then glued it on top of the Wolverine Origins #5 label?

 

It doesn't look cut. Could he have somehow scanned and printed out his own new label, dropping in a scanned 9.6 and reprinting the Hulk label? I don't see any of the microprinting in the grade square around the 9.6 that ought to be there. That could explain why the serial number didn't change, and maybe the guy thought that the serial number just meant Hulk #181 and wasn't unique to a particular grade.

[James Howlett]

I would think that if he swapped labels, he would swap the entire label not just the number grade.

 

 

Yeah, I'm not understanding this scam either (not saying it isn't a scam, I just don't get the logistics).

 

So we think he took an 8.0 slab, cracked the back of it somehow, and replaced the 8.0 sticker with a 9.6 one? Are those really just stickers?

 

Can't believe he thought he'd get away with that.

 

I think the better scam would be:

Buy a 9.6.

Buy a raw or 8.0+ CGC book.

Somehow swap the 8.0 book into the 9.6 case or the 9.6 label into the 8.0 case.

Resub the 9.6 book.

 

 

 

Buying a cgc 9.6 and an 8.0 and swapping them out would require $4,000 and $760 respectively. Buying an 8.0 and a 9.6 modern would only cost about $760 and $30.

 

Buying a 9.6 alone and re-subbing by it self is a $1400 gamble if it drops to 9.4, which is possible.

[Warren Oates]

If I understand correctly; he popped open 1 back corner so he could fish the label out. Then inserted a fake label, or a doctored one. He could have just as well put back one that was legit, but from another book (same issue). This idea was discussed here a year ago.

 

I think the label inside should be partially fused to inner plastic somehow.

 

 

[SOTIcollector]

As noted before. there were plenty of clues that this was a scam from the start. The fuzzy photos, the lack of any sales in 3 years, the fake "second chance" type offer that surely went to every bidder, and so forth. It's a good bet the scammer would have taken money from anybody willing to send it.

 

I've been on eBay since 1998, and I've seen a number of scams but I'm certainly no expert in knowing all the different ways the dirtbags get away with them (or try to). Maybe I've been reading too many Golden Age crime comics lately, but I always like trying to figure out how the scammer does what they do.

 

A couple thoughts on how this could have happened.

 

1) If the person had no eBay transactions for a long time, then suddenly started buying books (like Wolverine:Origins and a Hulk 181 8.0) and offering scam auctions, I would guess that it's a hacked account. My guess is that the scam would go something like this:

a) Hacker hacks into a person's e-mail in a way that gets them an e-mail address and a password. Perhaps this was done using a program that guesses passwords till it hits on one, or perhaps this was done by simply typing in easy passwords (such as password=username) until the hacker gains access to an e-mail account..

b) Once the hacker had the e-mail address and password of an unsuspecting person, they checked e-mails and found an eBay account. If the unsuspecting e-mail account owner used the same password for their e-mail and for eBay (not smart, but not uncommon either)...voila! The hacker now has instant access to that person's eBay account. And if they used the SAME password for Paypal, then the hacker now has the keys to another person's kingdom.

c) The hacker can now change the account's e-mail address, bank info, whatever they want once they have this access.

d) The hacker starts listing fake auctions, knowing that when the scam is uncovered, it's the unsuspecting eBay account owner who turns up as the first suspect. By the time the whole scam is uncovered, the scammer is long gone.

 

All of this takes us back to the "buy the book, not the label" advice. Good advice indeed. If you're spending enough money on books that buying a "fake" would seriously hurt your bank account, then it's critical that you educate yourself. Any halfway knowledgeable collector can easily discern a 9.6 or 9.8 from an 8.0. This scam was pretty easy to spot, but in the future I can guarantee you there will be ones that are much harder to spot. In fact, I'm surprised it hasn't happened already.

 

Here's the case I'm betting we'll hear about in the future. I debated as to whether I should post this because I don't want to give ideas to the crooks out there. But frankly, if I can think of this, certainly the crooks can as well. The best approach is an educated public.

 

1) Crook realizes that there are plenty of books that sell for $5k and more, and decides to capitalize on it.

2) Crook heads to, say Hong Kong or Peking or any one of a zillion other places in the world where goods are manufactured cheaply, and where bootlegs of American goods are sold regularly on the open market.

3) Crook pays a manufacturer to create for them, say, one hundred exact duplicates of the CGC case. Although the cost of creating an exact duplicate is significantly higher than the cost of simply creating a functional equivalent, the crook realizes the need to be exact and pays accordingly.

4) Crook similarly pays for the manufacture of holograms or any other items used to make the CGC case seem unique.

5) Crook comes back to the US with their empty cases, holograms, etc. and starts slabbing their own books. The ability to create their own slabs would give virtually unlimited scam potential.

Of course, the weakness in this plot, from the crook's standpoint, is the serial number and its reference in CGC's database of slabbed items. Those 100 fresh slabs would have to be sold quickly, before somebody could call for CGC's notes and find out that the serial number is a fake. But then, the crook could use known serial numbers from recent auctions on their custom-made books, to further provide a veneer of respectability to their scam.

The scam would undoutbtedly be found out, but not before a lot of people a significant amount of money.

 

My guess is that the above scam, or something close to it, will happen one day.