Comic Book Spine Realignment Therapy, turn your 8.5's into 9.2's!

[Spiderphill]

Tape rule will be changed. Pressing and spine alignment won't. It's part of the game but now it's out of the bag. Lets see how this one plays out in the next year or two. Lets see who jumps on the band wagon and let's see who sticks to their morals. At the end of the day if someone presses their book to max their money because if they don't, someone else will. Apply that same rule to spine shifting and you have a very vicious and ugly cycle.

 

I'd say you are right.

 

On a side note, i found this quote at the top of the Avengers 1 sellers page a tad humorous/sad

 

Thomas here, founder and owner. I sell only UNRESTORED comics, along with posters and other paper collectibles. I strive to be one of the best comic dealers out there. Look no further if you want good honest deals. Good luck bidding!

 

i do not fault the seller.

[lizards2]

Tape rule will be changed. Pressing and spine alignment won't. It's part of the game but now it's out of the bag. Lets see how this one plays out in the next year or two. Lets see who jumps on the band wagon and let's see who sticks to their morals. At the end of the day if someone presses their book to max their money because if they don't, someone else will. Apply that same rule to spine shifting and you have a very vicious and ugly cycle.

 

I'd say you are right.

 

On a side note, i found this quote at the top of the Avengers 1 sellers page a tad humorous/sad

 

Thomas here, founder and owner. I sell only UNRESTORED comics, along with posters and other paper collectibles. I strive to be one of the best comic dealers out there. Look no further if you want good honest deals. Good luck bidding!

 

Uhhh..., pressing isn't restoration?

[JTD]

You can tell if it is production related or not. Paper exposed to air oxidizes faster than when it is not. The edge sticking out prior should be slightly darker than the rest as the cover protected it from exposure better. Even if its minimal you should be able to see it in hand.

 

The Question I had is:

 

What happened to that 1/4" overhang that the back Cover surely must have had? Was it Trimmed off???

 

Curious CAL...

It wasn't just the cover that was shifted. The entire book was refolded and pressed, it seems. That's why the comic now fills the well, where the original had a little play inside.

 

I understand how someone tried to work within the rules of what CGC allows to get the best grade possible.

 

I'm surprised that the removal of a spine roll increases the grade, which I think is totally acceptable but the addition of one also increases the grade.

 

 

I agree as well, but am confused as well about how a grade can be higher if a spine roll is placed back.. Doesn't make any sense whatsoever

 

I am not throwing the Rock to smash that dealer's glass house, but my Best Guess that the back Cover WAS trimmed, to which CGC should have caught. PLOD label should have been given.

 

The microscope can show the "zebra" pattterns on a recently trimmed comic book. They are extremely hard to detect in a case like this; bad trim jobs have been seen just by a scan right here on these Boards. I can tell a bad trim job within the first second look.

 

CAL who usually does not like to collect trimmed comics.

 

 

 

I haven't read this whole thread yet , but who would trim an Avengers #1 that is a graded 8.5. You would have to have balls of steel or know the outcome before hand.

[sufunk]

Tape rule will be changed. Pressing and spine alignment won't. It's part of the game but now it's out of the bag. Lets see how this one plays out in the next year or two. Lets see who jumps on the band wagon and let's see who sticks to their morals. At the end of the day if someone presses their book to max their money because if they don't, someone else will. Apply that same rule to spine shifting and you have a very vicious and ugly cycle.

 

I'd say you are right.

 

On a side note, i found this quote at the top of the Avengers 1 sellers page a tad humorous/sad

 

Thomas here, founder and owner. I sell only UNRESTORED comics, along with posters and other paper collectibles. I strive to be one of the best comic dealers out there. Look no further if you want good honest deals. Good luck bidding!

 

i do not fault the seller. He is just exploiting CGCs rules. Cgc has enabled this game. Remember that. They even went as far as incorporating a pressing service in their business. Now instead of dupack and crack restored books. He has mastered legit blue label methods to make a boat load of money. He is exploiting two of CGCs biggest policies. Pressing and ct:glue on a GA book. The only people to resent are the ones who paved this road. Not this seller.

 

True although the phrases "one of the best comic dealers out there" and "good honest deals" rings a TAD disingenuous after seeing what he is doing to his books (thumbs u

[chrisco37]

You can tell if it is production related or not. Paper exposed to air oxidizes faster than when it is not. The edge sticking out prior should be slightly darker than the rest as the cover protected it from exposure better. Even if its minimal you should be able to see it in hand.

 

The Question I had is:

 

What happened to that 1/4" overhang that the back Cover surely must have had? Was it Trimmed off???

 

Curious CAL...

It wasn't just the cover that was shifted. The entire book was refolded and pressed, it seems. That's why the comic now fills the well, where the original had a little play inside.

 

I understand how someone tried to work within the rules of what CGC allows to get the best grade possible.

 

I'm surprised that the removal of a spine roll increases the grade, which I think is totally acceptable but the addition of one also increases the grade.

 

 

I agree as well, but am confused as well about how a grade can be higher if a spine roll is placed back.. Doesn't make any sense whatsoever

 

I am not throwing the Rock to smash that dealer's glass house, but my Best Guess that the back Cover WAS trimmed, to which CGC should have caught. PLOD label should have been given.

 

The microscope can show the "zebra" pattterns on a recently trimmed comic book. They are extremely hard to detect in a case like this; bad trim jobs have been seen just by a scan right here on these Boards. I can tell a bad trim job within the first second look.

 

CAL who usually does not like to collect trimmed comics.

 

 

 

I haven't read this whole thread yet , but who would trim an Avengers #1 that is a graded 8.5. You would have to have balls of steel or know the outcome before hand.

 

The original Ewert micro-trim book was a HG FF#4 that was micro-trimmed to an even higher grade.

 

It may have even been an 8.5 to a 9.2. I don't recall the grade specifics (and too lazy to search for it).

[ARWilson-migration]

I feel sick.

 

Just for the record. Now, apparently, this was "fixing" a bad alignment but i have a feeling Matt can and has done it both ways based on this post

 

 

Welcome to the hobby pressing has created. I hate to say it, and noone should take this personally but IMO if you (myself included) buy, sell or support pressed books you have been a part of creating a market that accepts this.

Absolutely.

No, not absolutely. There's pressing and then there's stupidity. Stupidity is what CGC is encouraging, fostering, and displaying in allowing something like that in a blue label. The CGC is the one creating a marketplace where that type of creative manipulation is acceptable.

The irony here is thick enough to shield me from a gamma bomb. Ive seen you defend pressing so many times i cant count them. Now that a technique has passed your personal line in the sand its a big deal. This book isnt anymore damaged than any other pressed book ( actual damage not your opinion on ascetics). Cgc is simply grading the book as it sits in front of them.

Yes, it has been damaged. It has had a new spine created where wasn't one before.. I still defend pressing. This isn't pressing. This is purposely deforming a book to improve the technical grade. Nothing about this is book has been improved upon with exception of the number in the upper left hand corner and that fault lays squarely with the CGC.

 

Plus, you need to work on your hyperbole technique. You need to be just a touch more indignant.

 

You sound like every anti presser ive heard you rail on over the years. Your emotions cloud your judgement (and your posts). Press a spine roll in, press a spine roll out its all the same "damage"

 

As an aside, i had a tales to astonish 93 9.2 that looked like the avengers 9.2. It looked to have been made that way. I then had it pressed and the spine realligned to where it should have been. Matt nelson did this for me in like 2009.

Oh my GOD! This is of Ewert proportions.I am sad today.

 

"It's the same book. Good pressers have been able to skew spines like that for a long time." Timely (who was a grader for CGC, correct?)

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=16&Number=6480329&Searchpage=3&Main=290878&Words=Timely&topic=0&Search=true#Post6480329

[comicwiz]

Thomas here, founder and owner. I sell only UNRESTORED comics, along with posters and other paper collectibles. I strive to be one of the best comic dealers out there. Look no further if you want good honest deals. Good luck bidding!

 

Sure he can say this because CGC enables this butchery.

 

This is what I said here:

 

From inception to the PCS era, certification started from the need to take the hobby's worst activity - the handful of shady's like Dupcak and Ewert - and use that activity to establish the ceiling.

 

Mainly, that nothing would go above that level of trickery and underhandedness.

 

What's resulted instead is a path paved by certification which made the ceiling the gamed systems floor, and opened up that floor to anyone and everyone who wanted in on the game of high risk stakes.

 

A shills yawn and treefiddy questioning of my comments, we are now seeing an example of the undertakings, and the manner in which these scams are being instituted and enabled by the new breed of poster boy scammers through a certification company incapable of controlling what it earnestly "claimed" it was going to do from the outset.

 

I'm convinced MAD 166 is the quintessential tribute cover to distill my exact feelings toward CGC and all the dupe-STARS who have used certification to take their scammage to new heights, and for wrecking this hobby.

[sufunk]

You can tell if it is production related or not. Paper exposed to air oxidizes faster than when it is not. The edge sticking out prior should be slightly darker than the rest as the cover protected it from exposure better. Even if its minimal you should be able to see it in hand.

 

The Question I had is:

 

What happened to that 1/4" overhang that the back Cover surely must have had? Was it Trimmed off???

 

Curious CAL...

It wasn't just the cover that was shifted. The entire book was refolded and pressed, it seems. That's why the comic now fills the well, where the original had a little play inside.

 

I understand how someone tried to work within the rules of what CGC allows to get the best grade possible.

 

I'm surprised that the removal of a spine roll increases the grade, which I think is totally acceptable but the addition of one also increases the grade.

 

 

I agree as well, but am confused as well about how a grade can be higher if a spine roll is placed back.. Doesn't make any sense whatsoever

 

I am not throwing the Rock to smash that dealer's glass house, but my Best Guess that the back Cover WAS trimmed, to which CGC should have caught. PLOD label should have been given.

 

The microscope can show the "zebra" pattterns on a recently trimmed comic book. They are extremely hard to detect in a case like this; bad trim jobs have been seen just by a scan right here on these Boards. I can tell a bad trim job within the first second look.

 

CAL who usually does not like to collect trimmed comics.

 

 

 

I haven't read this whole thread yet , but who would trim an Avengers #1 that is a graded 8.5. You would have to have balls of steel or know the outcome before hand.

 

The original Ewert micro-trim book was a HG FF#4 that was micro-trimmed to an even higher grade.

 

It may have even been an 8.5 to a 9.2. I don't recall the grade specifics (and too lazy to search for it).

 

+1

 

Now, after looking at these scans for the last few days, i DON'T think that this book was trimmed. That being said, i dont think someone with big money would hesitate for a nano second trimming a 13k book if they thought they could sneak it past CGC and turn it into a 60k book. The reward easily outweighs the risk for plenty of people. As chrisco pointed out, plenty of Ewert books were high dollar books (thumbs u

[oakman29]

Tape rule will be changed. Pressing and spine alignment won't. It's part of the game but now it's out of the bag. Lets see how this one plays out in the next year or two. Lets see who jumps on the band wagon and let's see who sticks to their morals. At the end of the day if someone presses their book to max their money because if they don't, someone else will. Apply that same rule to spine shifting and you have a very vicious and ugly cycle.

 

I'd say you are right.

 

On a side note, i found this quote at the top of the Avengers 1 sellers page a tad humorous/sad

 

Thomas here, founder and owner. I sell only UNRESTORED comics, along with posters and other paper collectibles. I strive to be one of the best comic dealers out there. Look no further if you want good honest deals. Good luck bidding!

 

Uhhh..., pressing isn't restoration?

[Davenport]

Good of you to respond, Paul. (thumbs u

 

However, regarding...

 

'We'd like to thank the boards for pointing out these concerns. You watch the Watchmen and it is appreciated. More to come. Thanks.'

 

...could I ask why previous, extremely educational threads related to similar activity have been deleted from the boards?

 

I'm thinking of the Ewert-related threads and the 'Manufactured Gold' thread and a few others?

 

You know what they say about learning from history, but if that history isn't available to our new boards members...?

Watchmen?

 

Spiderphill adds his name to very long list of diligent boardies that have brought "The Game" into the light for the rest of us. Some of who have made tremendous amounts of dataminig and presentation efforts.

 

Someone post a link to ONE thread where a fee-based "professional expert" brought something to light. Just ONE thread over the decade. And not just this chatboard, ANY board.

 

I don't think anyone can. If there is one, unlike the books being discussed, it WOULD be an anomaly.

 

As far as I've seen it's ALWAYS a boardie.

 

Which begs another question: How many times do those diligent boardies have to drag 'The Game' before your eyes before understanding takes place? How many times?

 

 

 

 

[comicwiz]

Good of you to respond, Paul. (thumbs u

 

However, regarding...

 

'We'd like to thank the boards for pointing out these concerns. You watch the Watchmen and it is appreciated. More to come. Thanks.'

 

...could I ask why previous, extremely educational threads related to similar activity have been deleted from the boards?

 

I'm thinking of the Ewert-related threads and the 'Manufactured Gold' thread and a few others?

 

You know what they say about learning from history, but if that history isn't available to our new boards members...?

Watchmen?

 

Spiderphill adds his name to very long list of diligent boardies that have brought "The Game" into the light for the rest of us. Some of who have made tremendous amounts of dataminig and presentation efforts.

 

Someone post a link to ONE thread where a fee-based "professional expert" brought something to light. Just ONE thread over the decade. And not just this chatboard, ANY board.

 

I don't think anyone can. If there is one, unlike the books being discussed, it WOULD be an anomaly.

 

As far as I've seen it's ALWAYS a boardie.

 

Which begs another question: How many times do boardies have to drag 'The Game' before your eyes before understanding takes place? How many?

 

 

Don't forget the instance where a shill summarized a yawn. (thumbs u

 

And the agreement - when two pennies aren't enough:

 

Pressing in the hands of the people is a good thing.

 

Pressing in the hands of the people, as encouraged by CGC's grading standards, which includes non-disclosure of pressing on CGC labels, is not comparable to what DupDummy has had a career of.

 

It isn't the same game getting gamed by gamers in a rigged gaming system.

 

[blazingbob]

Maybe it's me but a crease is a crease whether it's on the front or the back.

 

A stress line is the a stress line whether it's front or back.

 

Writing on the front or the back is still writing and if it's on the splash page you can't see it in a CGC holder. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be noted on the label since some collectors dislike writing of any kind.

 

Stain on the front is just as bad as a stain on the back.

 

Just because a backing board hides a back cover defect doesn't mean it is not there.

 

I have never heard CGC tell me that back cover defects are given less of a grading weight. I've gotten that argument from other dealers which makes no sense to me. That's not how I learned how to grade.

 

 

[nearmint]

Maybe it's me but a crease is a crease whether it's on the front or the back.

 

A stress line is the a stress line whether it's front or back.

 

Writing on the front or the back is still writing and if it's on the splash page you can't see it in a CGC holder. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be noted on the label since some collectors dislike writing of any kind.

 

Stain on the front is just as bad as a stain on the back.

 

Just because a backing board hides a back cover defect doesn't mean it is not there.

 

I have never heard CGC tell me that back cover defects are given less of a grading weight. I've gotten that argument from other dealers which makes no sense to me. That's not how I learned how to grade.

 

 

Yep. (thumbs u

[comicwiz]

Maybe it's me but a crease is a crease whether it's on the front or the back.

 

A stress line is the a stress line whether it's front or back.

 

Writing on the front or the back is still writing and if it's on the splash page you can't see it in a CGC holder. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be noted on the label since some collectors dislike writing of any kind.

 

Stain on the front is just as bad as a stain on the back.

 

Just because a backing board hides a back cover defect doesn't mean it is not there.

 

I have never heard CGC tell me that back cover defects are given less of a grading weight. I've gotten that argument from other dealers which makes no sense to me. That's not how I learned how to grade.

 

 

Thanks Bob! I'm pretty sure the majority of people here agree, but the line blurring that's been going on with certification probably has allowed too many to lose sight of facts.

[Mmehdy]

It is plain and simple math here... Take a 8500 book and make it 85k or whatever. The numbers speak for themselves .... This is plastic surgery on a comic book ...stretch the face and lose the wrinkles ..... It is a dream.... A recreation of what something used to be....

[sufunk]

I can't imagine they are just ignoring back cover faults.

 

Pretty recently, they raped me, bent me over and raped me again and then just for good measure nailed me 1 last time for a practically imperceptible back cover fault on my 9.2 Avengers 4 that they downgraded to a 8.5

 

How they let this one with it's MANY now back cover faults slip by and get a 9.2 label is beyond me

[comicwiz]

[Transplant]

Personally, I appreciate that the hobby cares enough to watch and question what we are doing and I am always open to discuss it. However, it is easier to reach me via email as I'm not on here much.

Folks. Remember this the next time someone tells you to stop criticizing or challenging CGC on something. Paul and I have talked and this has 100% been his attitude about a range of topics I've raised with him. Let's discuss things in the light. Then, hopefully, we can have a better CGC product at the end of the day. It benefits everyone in this hobby to have a professional, expedient and trustworthy 3rd party grading service.

[Davenport]

It is plain and simple math here... Take a 8500 book and make it 85k or whatever. The numbers speak for themselves .... This is plastic surgery on a comic book ...stretch the face and lose the wrinkles ..... It is a dream.... A recreation of what something used to be....

There has to be wiggle room for Paper Mechanics to ply their trade. Can't tighten up the caveats and expect Paper Mechanics to produce the magic collectors (apparently) crave.

Huge bumps or clear strict boundaries. Can't have both.

[blazingbob]

The book that Jason trimmed or "had trimmed by someone else" was a FF #3 8.5. This was confirmed by high resolution scans showing that there were less bricks in the building below the Human torch's head. This was followed up by I believe a Strange Tales #128 ebay listing that someone had before scans of.