Comic Book Investing

[dupont2005]

The above is not to imply that there isn't money to be made dealing, flipping and exploiting the weaknesses of your fellow man

 

Only in America could someone on Wall Street say the above without a hint of irony.

 

Not to get , but the overwhelming majority of people who work in the finance industry, including myself, had/have nothing to do with synthetic CDOs, credit default swaps, high-frequency trading, insider trading or any of the other products/behaviors that had/have (deservedly) gotten bad press.

 

Irony-free and loving it.

A while back I was at the theater, I think to see Anchorman. An older man asked me what I was seeing as I waited by the snack area. I told him, he said he just got done watching The Wolf Of Wall Street. He said he had worked on Wall Street for thirty years and had never done anything like the movie. I thought to myself, "That's why the theater isn't in your mansion."

 

I know there's plenty of honest people in finance, I doubt the top 50 or so are all that honest though. I have a sour opinion of sales as well, and I used to be a salesman. I just saw first hand who the record breaking top sellers were, and what kind of people they were, and how they all floated to the top. I could never make it in sales.

[october]

I'm still always amazed at the fact people confuse "investing" with "gambling". But, then again, I'm always amazed at people who respond to Nigerian emails, but it happens.

 

While my investment portfolio contains exactly $0 in comics despite buying and selling them on a daily basis, I don't think it's fair to lump all of comic buying into gambling or speculating.

 

Blue chip comics have decades worth of price data. That's more than a lot of stocks. Buying 100 copies of the new Image #1 is speculating, buying a 4.0 copy of AF 15 with decades worth of incremental increases in value shouldn't be in the same boat.

 

Why not? Sure AF 15 has had a great run. I've bought them and sold them and always made money off them. But ... anyone buying one (or more) today with the expectation that his return over the next 20 years will beat the stock market is making a very risky investment.

 

The factors that have driven up AF 15 prices are unlikely to be repeated. Once again, it won't take a collapse in interest in Spider-Man (or comics generally) to make AF 15 a poor investment.

 

Not to get bogged down in some silly semantic argument, but you answered your own question. A new image book has no track record. An AF 15 has decades worth. Just because both have a risk level doesn't A) mean those risk levels are the same (they aren't) or that they belong in the same category. A comic that has demonstrated decades of popularity and value is a lot closer to an "investment" than a fresh off the shelf modern. Not sure why you would argue to the contrary.

 

That's not to say I think either of the above are a good long term buy. I don't.

[Dr. Balls]

I'm still always amazed at the fact people confuse "investing" with "gambling". But, then again, I'm always amazed at people who respond to Nigerian emails, but it happens.

 

While my investment portfolio contains exactly $0 in comics despite buying and selling them on a daily basis, I don't think it's fair to lump all of comic buying into gambling or speculating.

 

Blue chip comics have decades worth of price data. That's more than a lot of stocks. Buying 100 copies of the new Image #1 is speculating, buying a 4.0 copy of AF 15 with decades worth of incremental increases in value shouldn't be in the same boat.

 

Why not? Sure AF 15 has had a great run. I've bought them and sold them and always made money off them. But ... anyone buying one (or more) today with the expectation that his return over the next 20 years will beat the stock market is making a very risky investment.

 

The factors that have driven up AF 15 prices are unlikely to be repeated. Once again, it won't take a collapse in interest in Spider-Man (or comics generally) to make AF 15 a poor investment.

 

I don't disagree with the fact AF15 has gone up continually - but it's still not investing in the financial sense. Comic books are based on the nostalgic feelings of the people who buy them. There is no direct relationship of profit, innovation, direction, control or even ownership of Marvel involved with or to directly benefit that AF15. You are betting - not investing - that the continuation of things out of control of absolutely everyone - will continue to increase the price. To me, that's pretty much gambling.

[comixcroz]

I'm still always amazed at the fact people confuse "investing" with "gambling". But, then again, I'm always amazed at people who respond to Nigerian emails, but it happens.

 

While my investment portfolio contains exactly $0 in comics despite buying and selling them on a daily basis, I don't think it's fair to lump all of comic buying into gambling or speculating.

 

Blue chip comics have decades worth of price data. That's more than a lot of stocks. Buying 100 copies of the new Image #1 is speculating, buying a 4.0 copy of AF 15 with decades worth of incremental increases in value shouldn't be in the same boat.

 

Why not? Sure AF 15 has had a great run. I've bought them and sold them and always made money off them. But ... anyone buying one (or more) today with the expectation that his return over the next 20 years will beat the stock market is making a very risky investment.

 

The factors that have driven up AF 15 prices are unlikely to be repeated. Once again, it won't take a collapse in interest in Spider-Man (or comics generally) to make AF 15 a poor investment.

 

I don't disagree with the fact AF15 has gone up continually - but it's still not investing in the financial sense. Comic books are based on the nostalgic feelings of the people who buy them. There is no direct relationship of profit, innovation, direction, control or even ownership of Marvel involved with or to directly benefit that AF15. You are betting - not investing - that the continuation of things out of control of absolutely everyone - will continue to increase the price. To me, that's pretty much gambling.

 

I agree with a lot of what you are saying but I think purchasing a book like AF #15 is more of an investment than gambling. Investing doesn't necessarily equate to winning in my book. There are no guarantees in investing in anything. When I think of gambling, I think of purchasing a lottery ticket or putting down a $20 chip on a black jack table. I am throwing that money completely away in hopes of a huge, unlikely pay out. You either win big in the lottery, double your money in black jack or lose it all. With an AF #15 - you may lose some money or make some money, but the chances of your investment reaching $0 is pretty remote in my opinion. The control that you have over your investment in AF #15 is keeping your eyes open to the market and choosing when to sell.

[techtre2003]

The SEC disagrees with you. Any investment comes with a risk. Saving money in FDIC accounts is simply that- saving, not investing.

If it's interest bearing, it's an investment. Some things carry higher risks than others. The United States has never defaulted on a bond in the history of the Union. It's possible, but VERY unlikely.

 

On the other hand, a conservative figure of 99.9% of all comics lose about 80% of their sticker price the second you pay for them. If you manage to hold onto it long enough, and keep it in pristine condition, maybe in twenty years it will be worth cover price again. Then again, maybe not.

 

If you only have four dollars to invest, an Image #1 isn't going to ruin your life, but we all know what happens when someone dumps ten grand into multiples of the same hot new issue. You end up with crates of drek you couldn't give away thirty years later. Might as well burn them, cheaper than storing them.

 

As far as buying slabbed GA, like I said earlier, generating wealth requires wealth. If you don't have five figures to spend, you're not "investing" in comics, you're gambling on them. If I only had six hundred dollars a year to invest annually, I wouldn't bother with comics. In fact, if I had ten grand a year to invest I wouldn't bother with comics either, but I can see how that could be relatively safe (compared to day trading at least) and possibly perform better than current interest rates.

 

If you put that 10k into a Roth IRA (one time contribution) and expect an 8% rate of return (which I believe is at or below the historical 40 year S&P 500 avg.) in 30 years you've got a little over 100k.

 

There may be a book or two that are $10k now and will hit $100k in 30 years. Even if we see those prices in 30 years (and that's a BIG if) what's the chances you picked the right book(s)? So yes, comics can be an investment. Are they a good investment? IMO no.

[Cat-Man_America]

When I have more time I'll drop by and add my perspective on investing. Some of my thoughts on the subject are common sense and practical, others more controversial.

 

If there is a downside to collecting for investment it's that the cost of building and maintaining a collection often forces collectors to reevaluate their collecting as a simple hobby and refocus their interests in unfamiliar directions. More later.

[Petey's Wheatcake]

 

 

. Everyone reading this knew a decade ago that Golden Age Joker covers would rise in price, right? .

 

No. Why would they? In 2004, Batman Begins was only just being filmed, Dark Knight was four years away, and the last Bat film was the atrocious Batman & Robin.

 

Bats was definitely NOT on the rise in 2004. So why would anyone think GA Joker covers would rise in price, any higher than other average GA books?

 

In fact, I sold a good heap (about 15) of GA and early SA Joker covers about three years ago. I made money on them, but not what I would have made if I'd held onto them until now.

 

That's the tricky thing about the future: no one knows it.

 

You make some solid points that are absolutely worth considering, but I think the overall purpose of this discussion is getting lost.

 

Comics can be excellent investments if you use common sense. You made money on your Joker covers. They were a solid investment then. They were an obvious investment to me even after Schumacher killed the movie franchise because it was Batman. Spider-Man, Batman, and Superman are icons and cornerstones of the hobby that will always be in demand as long as people collect comics. You are correct that no one knows the future, and knowing the optimal time to sell is mostly luck, but why would Golden Age Batman prices drop into the dumpster unless the market itself did?

 

Having said that, I continue to offer alternative options (like the JLA or Doctor Strange) because I think you are also correct in stating that there is less room to grow with the big 3 these days than there was 10 or 20 years ago. Doesn't mean that they aren't safe investments, but I doubt that they will appreciate at the same rate they have in the past.

 

It seems to me that it's all a matter of perspective. I do enjoy buying and selling comics, and I'm confident that there are plenty of issues in all price ranges worth investing my money in. I have no doubt that someone can point to possibly better/easier ways of earning money, but that's not what we were originally discussing. Historically, many comic books have been excellent investments, and it did not require any great supernatural ability to deduce this.

 

[conditionfreak]

There are no guarantees with ANY investment. You play the odds.

 

You may get lucky now and then, and you may get unlucky now and then. But overall. It is about knowing what the heck you are doing.

 

I'll tell you this. Over my life, I have noticed some people seeking out certain books when they were not on anyone's radar. Then a few years down the road, out of nowhere, those books hit the sky in value.

 

I noticed this, and I still could not figure out how those "investors" knew what was worth hoarding. How did they know which way the collecting winds were going to blow, before I did? Since I live and breath reading everything I can about this hobby.

 

Some people know what they are doing, and most don't. Most just take a shot, and hit now and then.

 

But some....well, they just see something most of us don't. And they ain't hoarding everything. Just select books or characters. Or stocks. Or precious metals, or whatever.

 

Bottom line is, some know what they are doing, and are making a killing. Most (like me) are flailing, with a hit now and then. But mostly misses.

 

No matter what field of money making one might be into. There are those that are good at it, and then there are the rest of us.

 

Short of hitting the lottery. No one gets rich by working hard every day. And non one gets rich by putting 10% of their earnings into the stock market. They will be "alright" and kind of happy after many years, for sure. But not rich-rich.

 

You have to be lucky, or extremely insightful. Or just plain "good".

[G.A.tor]

How many of the nearly 10 million millionaires in the U.S. made their fortunes through comics (or any other collectible or other non-interest bearing asset), as opposed to stocks, real estate and owning businesses? A minuscule proportion.

 

[Dr. Balls]

I'm still always amazed at the fact people confuse "investing" with "gambling". But, then again, I'm always amazed at people who respond to Nigerian emails, but it happens.

 

While my investment portfolio contains exactly $0 in comics despite buying and selling them on a daily basis, I don't think it's fair to lump all of comic buying into gambling or speculating.

 

Blue chip comics have decades worth of price data. That's more than a lot of stocks. Buying 100 copies of the new Image #1 is speculating, buying a 4.0 copy of AF 15 with decades worth of incremental increases in value shouldn't be in the same boat.

 

Why not? Sure AF 15 has had a great run. I've bought them and sold them and always made money off them. But ... anyone buying one (or more) today with the expectation that his return over the next 20 years will beat the stock market is making a very risky investment.

 

The factors that have driven up AF 15 prices are unlikely to be repeated. Once again, it won't take a collapse in interest in Spider-Man (or comics generally) to make AF 15 a poor investment.

 

I don't disagree with the fact AF15 has gone up continually - but it's still not investing in the financial sense. Comic books are based on the nostalgic feelings of the people who buy them. There is no direct relationship of profit, innovation, direction, control or even ownership of Marvel involved with or to directly benefit that AF15. You are betting - not investing - that the continuation of things out of control of absolutely everyone - will continue to increase the price. To me, that's pretty much gambling.

 

I agree with a lot of what you are saying but I think purchasing a book like AF #15 is more of an investment than gambling. Investing doesn't necessarily equate to winning in my book. There are no guarantees in investing in anything. When I think of gambling, I think of purchasing a lottery ticket or putting down a $20 chip on a black jack table. I am throwing that money completely away in hopes of a huge, unlikely pay out. You either win big in the lottery, double your money in black jack or lose it all. With an AF #15 - you may lose some money or make some money, but the chances of your investment reaching $0 is pretty remote in my opinion. The control that you have over your investment in AF #15 is keeping your eyes open to the market and choosing when to sell.

 

I think it's probably a philosophical viewpoint more than anything. To me - in basic terms - investing is taking a look at a company and what they produce, who's in charge, etc and those factors contribute to the growth of the company (and my stock) because those actions are directly related to the success or failure of the company.

 

A comic book, art or even a classic car's value is not based on any of those things. It's not so much that you will buy an AF15 and it will turn to $0 in 10 years - it's the fact that the act of putting your money into it, for me, is not the definition of financial investing, because all the factors that make that AF15 worth something are not related to anything other than nostalgia.

 

Not to say that nostalgia is not subject to the whims of people with expendible income. After all, people have been touting the investment potential of classic cars for over 20 years because their return is better than the stock market.

 

The concept of comic investing is based on selective/limited and unregulated track record of sales and feelings - and for me, I don't think that is enough to legitimize it as an investment. Not to say that people won't make money when they sell their collections, but the "how much" is based on non-financial definitions, not from things like profits, acquisitions, dividends, etc.

 

But that's just me - I can see where people are coming from on the other side.

[Chip Cataldo]

...and then you have the little guys like me. I don't need to hit it big with investing, I just need to make enough right now to pay for the groceries.

 

Peace,

 

Chip

[MisterX]

For most people there's an emotional aspect to buying a comic book that makes their judgement untrustworthy.

 

 

[october]

because all the factors that make that AF15 worth something are not related to anything other than nostalgia.

 

Well, yes and no. AF 15s (or any other classic keys) had initial value increases driven by nostalgia; people liked Spider-Man, they wanted his first appearance. I think a lot of the subsequent price increases were probably fueled by people who wanted to own something cool, but who also wanted somewhere to park their money.

 

I doubt people buy $75,000 comics for nostalgic reasons alone any more than people buy $75,000 Warhol prints solely for something pretty to hang on a wall, or a $75,000 Chippendale sofa solely because it's comfortable. They are convenient stores of wealth that have shown some track record of desirability and increases in value, and have all transcended their initial purposes. Their prices aren't going to be tied only to those factors anymore.

[dupont2005]

The SEC disagrees with you. Any investment comes with a risk. Saving money in FDIC accounts is simply that- saving, not investing.

If it's interest bearing, it's an investment. Some things carry higher risks than others. The United States has never defaulted on a bond in the history of the Union. It's possible, but VERY unlikely.

 

On the other hand, a conservative figure of 99.9% of all comics lose about 80% of their sticker price the second you pay for them. If you manage to hold onto it long enough, and keep it in pristine condition, maybe in twenty years it will be worth cover price again. Then again, maybe not.

 

If you only have four dollars to invest, an Image #1 isn't going to ruin your life, but we all know what happens when someone dumps ten grand into multiples of the same hot new issue. You end up with crates of drek you couldn't give away thirty years later. Might as well burn them, cheaper than storing them.

 

As far as buying slabbed GA, like I said earlier, generating wealth requires wealth. If you don't have five figures to spend, you're not "investing" in comics, you're gambling on them. If I only had six hundred dollars a year to invest annually, I wouldn't bother with comics. In fact, if I had ten grand a year to invest I wouldn't bother with comics either, but I can see how that could be relatively safe (compared to day trading at least) and possibly perform better than current interest rates.

 

If you put that 10k into a Roth IRA (one time contribution) and expect an 8% rate of return (which I believe is at or below the historical 40 year S&P 500 avg.) in 30 years you've got a little over 100k.

 

There may be a book or two that are $10k now and will hit $100k in 30 years. Even if we see those prices in 30 years (and that's a BIG if) what's the chances you picked the right book(s)? So yes, comics can be an investment. Are they a good investment? IMO no.

Agreed. If I had an extra 10k to invest, it would go into the Vanguard 401K

[shadroch]

 

From the SEC website.

 

Differences Between Saving and Investing

 

Q: What are the differences between saving and investing?

 

A: Your "savings" are usually put into the safest places or products that allow you access to your money at any time. Examples include savings accounts, checking accounts, and certificates of deposit. At some banks and savings and loan associations your deposits may be insured by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC). But there's a tradeoff for the security and ready availability of these savings methods: your money is paid a low wage as it works for you.

 

When you "invest," you have a greater chance of losing your money than when you "save." Unlike FDIC-insured deposits, the money you invest in securities, mutual funds, and other similar investments is not federally insured. You could lose your "principal," which is the amount you've invested. That’s true even if you purchase your investments through a bank. But when you invest, you also have the opportunity to earn more money than when you save. There is a tradeoff between the higher risk of investing and the potential for greater rewards.

 

Q: Are savings bonds a safe investment?

 

A: Savings bonds are issued by the U.S. Department of the Treasury to pay for the borrowing needs of the government. Because savings bonds are backed by the full faith and credit of the U.S. government, they are considered one of the safest investments available.

 

Generally, you must pay federal tax on the interest earned on U.S. savings bonds. If you do not include the interest in income in the years it is earned, you must include it in your income in the year in which you cash in the bonds. Savings bonds are exempt from state and local taxes. If your bonds are lost, stolen or destroyed, they can be replaced by the Treasury Department. For more information about savings bonds, visit www.treasurydirect.gov.

 

 

 

h

[shadroch]

The SEC disagrees with you. Any investment comes with a risk. Saving money in FDIC accounts is simply that- saving, not investing.

If it's interest bearing, it's an investment. Some things carry higher risks than others. The United States has never defaulted on a bond in the history of the Union. It's possible, but VERY unlikely.

 

On the other hand, a conservative figure of 99.9% of all comics lose about 80% of their sticker price the second you pay for them. If you manage to hold onto it long enough, and keep it in pristine condition, maybe in twenty years it will be worth cover price again. Then again, maybe not.

 

If you only have four dollars to invest, an Image #1 isn't going to ruin your life, but we all know what happens when someone dumps ten grand into multiples of the same hot new issue. You end up with crates of drek you couldn't give away thirty years later. Might as well burn them, cheaper than storing them.

 

As far as buying slabbed GA, like I said earlier, generating wealth requires wealth. If you don't have five figures to spend, you're not "investing" in comics, you're gambling on them. If I only had six hundred dollars a year to invest annually, I wouldn't bother with comics. In fact, if I had ten grand a year to invest I wouldn't bother with comics either, but I can see how that could be relatively safe (compared to day trading at least) and possibly perform better than current interest rates.

 

If you put that 10k into a Roth IRA (one time contribution) and expect an 8% rate of return (which I believe is at or below the historical 40 year S&P 500 avg.) in 30 years you've got a little over 100k.

 

There may be a book or two that are $10k now and will hit $100k in 30 years. Even if we see those prices in 30 years (and that's a BIG if) what's the chances you picked the right book(s)? So yes, comics can be an investment. Are they a good investment? IMO no.

 

If you have knowledge, invest $10,000 in the right SA books today, sell 10-15% of them each year and reinvest the money back into books, you will almost certainly end up up with well over $100,000 in books in thirty years.

[ComicConnoisseur]

The SEC disagrees with you. Any investment comes with a risk. Saving money in FDIC accounts is simply that- saving, not investing.

If it's interest bearing, it's an investment. Some things carry higher risks than others. The United States has never defaulted on a bond in the history of the Union. It's possible, but VERY unlikely.

 

On the other hand, a conservative figure of 99.9% of all comics lose about 80% of their sticker price the second you pay for them. If you manage to hold onto it long enough, and keep it in pristine condition, maybe in twenty years it will be worth cover price again. Then again, maybe not.

 

If you only have four dollars to invest, an Image #1 isn't going to ruin your life, but we all know what happens when someone dumps ten grand into multiples of the same hot new issue. You end up with crates of drek you couldn't give away thirty years later. Might as well burn them, cheaper than storing them.

 

As far as buying slabbed GA, like I said earlier, generating wealth requires wealth. If you don't have five figures to spend, you're not "investing" in comics, you're gambling on them. If I only had six hundred dollars a year to invest annually, I wouldn't bother with comics. In fact, if I had ten grand a year to invest I wouldn't bother with comics either, but I can see how that could be relatively safe (compared to day trading at least) and possibly perform better than current interest rates.

 

If you put that 10k into a Roth IRA (one time contribution) and expect an 8% rate of return (which I believe is at or below the historical 40 year S&P 500 avg.) in 30 years you've got a little over 100k.

 

There may be a book or two that are $10k now and will hit $100k in 30 years. Even if we see those prices in 30 years (and that's a BIG if) what's the chances you picked the right book(s)? So yes, comics can be an investment. Are they a good investment? IMO no.

Agreed. If I had an extra 10k to invest, it would go into the Vanguard 401K

I found that out awhile ago. I wonder if in 30 years though if the inflation is so bad that it would affect the value?

Inflation is another key factor to be concerned,

An example is gold at $800 an ounce in 1980 was actually worth more than gold at $1350 an ounce today.

Inflation and cost of living keeps going up.

I think the best investment would be our health, so we will still be around to debate all this stuff 30 years from now! (thumbs u

[dupont2005]

The SEC disagrees with you. Any investment comes with a risk. Saving money in FDIC accounts is simply that- saving, not investing.

If it's interest bearing, it's an investment. Some things carry higher risks than others. The United States has never defaulted on a bond in the history of the Union. It's possible, but VERY unlikely.

 

On the other hand, a conservative figure of 99.9% of all comics lose about 80% of their sticker price the second you pay for them. If you manage to hold onto it long enough, and keep it in pristine condition, maybe in twenty years it will be worth cover price again. Then again, maybe not.

 

If you only have four dollars to invest, an Image #1 isn't going to ruin your life, but we all know what happens when someone dumps ten grand into multiples of the same hot new issue. You end up with crates of drek you couldn't give away thirty years later. Might as well burn them, cheaper than storing them.

 

As far as buying slabbed GA, like I said earlier, generating wealth requires wealth. If you don't have five figures to spend, you're not "investing" in comics, you're gambling on them. If I only had six hundred dollars a year to invest annually, I wouldn't bother with comics. In fact, if I had ten grand a year to invest I wouldn't bother with comics either, but I can see how that could be relatively safe (compared to day trading at least) and possibly perform better than current interest rates.

 

If you put that 10k into a Roth IRA (one time contribution) and expect an 8% rate of return (which I believe is at or below the historical 40 year S&P 500 avg.) in 30 years you've got a little over 100k.

 

There may be a book or two that are $10k now and will hit $100k in 30 years. Even if we see those prices in 30 years (and that's a BIG if) what's the chances you picked the right book(s)? So yes, comics can be an investment. Are they a good investment? IMO no.

 

If you have knowledge, invest $10,000 in the right SA books today, sell 10-15% of them each year and reinvest the money back into books, you will almost certainly end up up with well over $100,000 in books in thirty years.

Has anybody agreed on what the "right" books are?

[dupont2005]

Stocks is easy, just buy low and sell high!

[conditionfreak]

I'll tell you what's nice.

 

Having a guaranteed, more than adequate, income for life. One that increases each year, more than the inflation rate. And having invested during that life, in things that have earned more than you put into it. Thus giving one the funds to "play with", be it collecting comic books, or saving stray animals.

 

I would not be listed as a millionaire on anyone's list. But I feel like a million-aire.

 

My comic book "investing" is playing. Playing to win, for sure. But playing nonetheless.

 

I don't care that I bought 30 copies of X-Force #1, and lost sixty dollars. The fun part was having bought 30 copies of ASM #300, and selling them for a huge profit. Much more than the 60 dollars I lost on the X-Forces. And the long term jury on the X-Forces is still in deliberation (hope springs eternal).

 

That was fun.

 

Fun (entertainment) usually costs something.