nearmint Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Maybe the 9.2 is bangzooms! The story of the year is the grade bumping of major keys....both in terms of actual grade and amount of restoration. The rise in price from 155K to 595K on the restored DT 27 is greed fueled. What can stop this....what has ever stopped making a profit. It is very important that this record breaking comic book not be a "grade bump" book.... Mitch, grades can change simply because CGC sees a book differently. Nothing necessarily needs to be done to a book. What is happening is these books are all vying for position (best, 2nd best, 3rd best, etc). Eventually they will settle into their respective positions. Interesting business model....change the standards every 5 years and regrade and regrade . Right now its grade bumping 1 grade and possible 1.2 grades higher. What happens when it it two grades higher....buying at the top is dangerous to say the least. But VC when know what is done to comics today to restore or unrepair to grade bump. Vying for a position does not mean what is occurring is a good and healthy thing. Mitch where have you been the last 10 years? Maybe if you participated in a few threads outside of Action #1's you would have noticed that people have been talking about this since day one. At no time has anybody made 2million on a grade bump/ press or whatever. So the book bumped 100 bucks ten years ago... But this trend is deeper, more profitable... And it is just beginning with ga mega keys....the new saying ..."crack and press"...and make 2+ million profit on a single book....it is coming big time. I think we saw a near unique opportunity with the action 1. It was a beautiful book initially graded with a couple of removable flaws. Flaws that these days most remove before submitting for grading, thus eliminating the potential for upgrades. Will folks continue to try to manipulate books into higher slabs, of course. It's human nature. Folks have been trying to improve books for profit as long as even you have been collecting Mitch (restoration was once widely positively accepted as increasing a books value) However I'm pretty reluctant to think we will ever hear of a 2mil bump on a comic again, it is just not statistically probable. Let's look at the 9.4 bump on the D27 from 9.2....was 155K now 595K... if that bump is even greater even more dollars up. I see in todays Hollywood Reporter an article as to WHY Metro paid over 3.2 million dollars for the Action One...give it read...interesting...here I will sum it up for you....i "it is gonna be worth more".... If you own a GA Key....and can grade bump it .2,.4. or a full grade...what are you gonna do...Gator the 2 million dollar profit Gold Rush( see Chuck R market comments)..has just began..just too much greed and money on the table NOW. mitch, here's my rebuttal...first, greed and money on the table is nothing new...been happening for the past 10 years since the advent of cgc, and happened the previous 30 years to that (just on a diff scale)... second, the tec you bring up did change in grade, but until someone actually buys it, it has not changed in value...I can "ask" anything I want for a book ,but ask yourself, do you think a 9.4 mod Tec 27 is worth 595K? (don't even consider what it was before, just what it is now)...we've never seen a restored Key even sniff 200K, have we? so don't panic just yet... I will keep asking this... why do we care that a book in a PURPLE RESTORED LABEL got a grade bump? I am not a blue label grade absolutist, so I don't get bent out of shape by a bump on a blue label book, but this is the first time I've heard anyone get crazy about a grade bump on a book that is LABELED AS RESTORED. Since it's labeled as restored... someone did some work on it and got a grade bump. Or maybe it just looks nicer to a different grade and it gets .2? Why are the pitchforks out for this book? I think it's just one pitchfork. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woowoo Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 (edited) Maybe the 9.2 is bangzooms! The story of the year is the grade bumping of major keys....both in terms of actual grade and amount of restoration. The rise in price from 155K to 595K on the restored DT 27 is greed fueled. What can stop this....what has ever stopped making a profit. It is very important that this record breaking comic book not be a "grade bump" book.... Mitch, grades can change simply because CGC sees a book differently. Nothing necessarily needs to be done to a book. What is happening is these books are all vying for position (best, 2nd best, 3rd best, etc). Eventually they will settle into their respective positions. Interesting business model....change the standards every 5 years and regrade and regrade . Right now its grade bumping 1 grade and possible 1.2 grades higher. What happens when it it two grades higher....buying at the top is dangerous to say the least. But VC when know what is done to comics today to restore or unrepair to grade bump. Vying for a position does not mean what is occurring is a good and healthy thing. Mitch where have you been the last 10 years? Maybe if you participated in a few threads outside of Action #1's you would have noticed that people have been talking about this since day one. At no time has anybody made 2million on a grade bump/ press or whatever. So the book bumped 100 bucks ten years ago... But this trend is deeper, more profitable... And it is just beginning with ga mega keys....the new saying ..."crack and press"...and make 2+ million profit on a single book....it is coming big time. I think we saw a near unique opportunity with the action 1. It was a beautiful book initially graded with a couple of removable flaws. Flaws that these days most remove before submitting for grading, thus eliminating the potential for upgrades. Will folks continue to try to manipulate books into higher slabs, of course. It's human nature. Folks have been trying to improve books for profit as long as even you have been collecting Mitch (restoration was once widely positively accepted as increasing a books value) However I'm pretty reluctant to think we will ever hear of a 2mil bump on a comic again, it is just not statistically probable. Let's look at the 9.4 bump on the D27 from 9.2....was 155K now 595K... if that bump is even greater even more dollars up. I see in todays Hollywood Reporter an article as to WHY Metro paid over 3.2 million dollars for the Action One...give it read...interesting...here I will sum it up for you....i "it is gonna be worth more".... If you own a GA Key....and can grade bump it .2,.4. or a full grade...what are you gonna do...Gator the 2 million dollar profit Gold Rush( see Chuck R market comments)..has just began..just too much greed and money on the table NOW. mitch, here's my rebuttal...first, greed and money on the table is nothing new...been happening for the past 10 years since the advent of cgc, and happened the previous 30 years to that (just on a diff scale)... second, the tec you bring up did change in grade, but until someone actually buys it, it has not changed in value...I can "ask" anything I want for a book ,but ask yourself, do you think a 9.4 mod Tec 27 is worth 595K? (don't even consider what it was before, just what it is now)...we've never seen a restored Key even sniff 200K, have we? so don't panic just yet... I will keep asking this... why do we care that a book in a PURPLE RESTORED LABEL got a grade bump? I am not a blue label grade absolutist, so I don't get bent out of shape by a bump on a blue label book, but this is the first time I've heard anyone get crazy about a grade bump on a book that is LABELED AS RESTORED. Since it's labeled as restored... someone did some work on it and got a grade bump. Or maybe it just looks nicer to a different grade and it gets .2? Why are the pitchforks out for this book? rob. I am ok with the grade bump book looks great. I am not ok with more work done on the book and it goes from EXT to Mod with more work.If resto was removed a little and it went from 9.2 EXT to 9.0 mod thats cool. look at the 2 scans color was added thats fine and is worth the grade bump but how can it go from Ext to Mod/ The book is worth the grade bump but not lowering the Resto work from E to M just my thought. Edited September 3, 2014 by woowoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Surfer Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Maybe the 9.2 is bangzooms! The story of the year is the grade bumping of major keys....both in terms of actual grade and amount of restoration. The rise in price from 155K to 595K on the restored DT 27 is greed fueled. What can stop this....what has ever stopped making a profit. It is very important that this record breaking comic book not be a "grade bump" book.... Mitch, grades can change simply because CGC sees a book differently. Nothing necessarily needs to be done to a book. What is happening is these books are all vying for position (best, 2nd best, 3rd best, etc). Eventually they will settle into their respective positions. Interesting business model....change the standards every 5 years and regrade and regrade . Right now its grade bumping 1 grade and possible 1.2 grades higher. What happens when it it two grades higher....buying at the top is dangerous to say the least. But VC when know what is done to comics today to restore or unrepair to grade bump. Vying for a position does not mean what is occurring is a good and healthy thing. Mitch where have you been the last 10 years? Maybe if you participated in a few threads outside of Action #1's you would have noticed that people have been talking about this since day one. At no time has anybody made 2million on a grade bump/ press or whatever. So the book bumped 100 bucks ten years ago... But this trend is deeper, more profitable... And it is just beginning with ga mega keys....the new saying ..."crack and press"...and make 2+ million profit on a single book....it is coming big time. I think we saw a near unique opportunity with the action 1. It was a beautiful book initially graded with a couple of removable flaws. Flaws that these days most remove before submitting for grading, thus eliminating the potential for upgrades. Will folks continue to try to manipulate books into higher slabs, of course. It's human nature. Folks have been trying to improve books for profit as long as even you have been collecting Mitch (restoration was once widely positively accepted as increasing a books value) However I'm pretty reluctant to think we will ever hear of a 2mil bump on a comic again, it is just not statistically probable. If this Tec copy ever when to market we might just see it happen again, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VintageComics Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 rob. I am ok with the grade bump book looks great. I am not ok with more work done on the book and it goes from EXT to Mod with more work.If resto was removed a little and it went from 9.2 EXT to 9.0 mod thats cool. look at the 2 scans color was added thats fine and is worth the grade bump but how can it go from Ext to Mod/ The book is worth the grade bump but not lowering the Resto work from E to M just my thought. But something happened in the mean time that was well discussed on here: CGC's restoration grading standards changed. That might be enough to explain everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunsicker Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 So where and when is this Detective #27 going up for sale? Didn't have to wait this long to get information on the Action #1 9.0! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Surfer Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 My guess is that if this goes up for sale it will be timed closer to the movie release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_react Posted September 3, 2014 Author Share Posted September 3, 2014 rob. I am ok with the grade bump book looks great. I am not ok with more work done on the book and it goes from EXT to Mod with more work.If resto was removed a little and it went from 9.2 EXT to 9.0 mod thats cool. look at the 2 scans color was added thats fine and is worth the grade bump but how can it go from Ext to Mod/ The book is worth the grade bump but not lowering the Resto work from E to M just my thought. But something happened in the mean time that was well discussed on here: CGC's restoration grading standards changed. That might be enough to explain everything. That was my thought exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_react Posted September 3, 2014 Author Share Posted September 3, 2014 I think it's just one pitchfork. True. So now it all makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bookery Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Let's look at the 9.4 bump on the D27 from 9.2....was 155K now 595K... if that bump is even greater even more dollars up. I see in todays Hollywood Reporter an article as to WHY Metro paid over 3.2 million dollars for the Action One...give it read...interesting...here I will sum it up for you....i "it is gonna be worth more".... If you own a GA Key....and can grade bump it .2,.4. or a full grade...what are you gonna do...Gator the 2 million dollar profit Gold Rush( see Chuck R market comments)..has just began..just too much greed and money on the table NOW. You still overlook the most important thing... no one is twisting anyone's arm to buy these books... or slabbed books in general. I have thousands of vintage comics in my shop. For some bizarre reason, not a single one of them has skyrocketed in price since the sale of the Action #1. And curiously, my grading standards have not changed either, and nothing has received a "grade bump". If one isn't buying comics simply as a stock-exchange style commodity, then purchasing something you like in a grade you trust, whether it's from CGC or whether it's raw, and at a price you find reasonable... none of that has been altered one whit by the Action or Detective, or any other of the $1 mil+ books that literally affect the lives of only a handful of people on earth willing to put that kind of cash into them. The rest of us go on business as usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluechip Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Maybe the 9.2 is bangzooms! The story of the year is the grade bumping of major keys....both in terms of actual grade and amount of restoration. The rise in price from 155K to 595K on the restored DT 27 is greed fueled. What can stop this....what has ever stopped making a profit. It is very important that this record breaking comic book not be a "grade bump" book.... Mitch, grades can change simply because CGC sees a book differently. Nothing necessarily needs to be done to a book. What is happening is these books are all vying for position (best, 2nd best, 3rd best, etc). Eventually they will settle into their respective positions. Interesting business model....change the standards every 5 years and regrade and regrade . Right now its grade bumping 1 grade and possible 1.2 grades higher. What happens when it it two grades higher....buying at the top is dangerous to say the least. But VC when know what is done to comics today to restore or unrepair to grade bump. Vying for a position does not mean what is occurring is a good and healthy thing. Mitch where have you been the last 10 years? Maybe if you participated in a few threads outside of Action #1's you would have noticed that people have been talking about this since day one. At no time has anybody made 2million on a grade bump/ press or whatever. So the book bumped 100 bucks ten years ago... But this trend is deeper, more profitable... And it is just beginning with ga mega keys....the new saying ..."crack and press"...and make 2+ million profit on a single book....it is coming big time. I think we saw a near unique opportunity with the action 1. It was a beautiful book initially graded with a couple of removable flaws. Flaws that these days most remove before submitting for grading, thus eliminating the potential for upgrades. Will folks continue to try to manipulate books into higher slabs, of course. It's human nature. Folks have been trying to improve books for profit as long as even you have been collecting Mitch (restoration was once widely positively accepted as increasing a books value) However I'm pretty reluctant to think we will ever hear of a 2mil bump on a comic again, it is just not statistically probable. Let's look at the 9.4 bump on the D27 from 9.2....was 155K now 595K... if that bump is even greater even more dollars up. I see in todays Hollywood Reporter an article as to WHY Metro paid over 3.2 million dollars for the Action One...give it read...interesting...here I will sum it up for you....i "it is gonna be worth more".... If you own a GA Key....and can grade bump it .2,.4. or a full grade...what are you gonna do...Gator the 2 million dollar profit Gold Rush( see Chuck R market comments)..has just began..just too much greed and money on the table NOW. mitch, here's my rebuttal...first, greed and money on the table is nothing new...been happening for the past 10 years since the advent of cgc, and happened the previous 30 years to that (just on a diff scale)... second, the tec you bring up did change in grade, but until someone actually buys it, it has not changed in value...I can "ask" anything I want for a book ,but ask yourself, do you think a 9.4 mod Tec 27 is worth 595K? (don't even consider what it was before, just what it is now)...we've never seen a restored Key even sniff 200K, have we? so don't panic just yet... I will keep asking this... why do we care that a book in a PURPLE RESTORED LABEL got a grade bump? I am not a blue label grade absolutist, so I don't get bent out of shape by a bump on a blue label book, but this is the first time I've heard anyone get crazy about a grade bump on a book that is LABELED AS RESTORED. Since it's labeled as restored... someone did some work on it and got a grade bump. Or maybe it just looks nicer to a different grade and it gets .2? Why are the pitchforks out for this book? Part of it is due to the fact that hand in hand with price enhancement comes price suppression. I don't know how nice the book was prior to restoration, but that should be the biggest factor working for it. Suppose it was very solid to begin with, possibly worth 400K if it had been "untouched." And suppose the touching was just color touch and suppose it was so limited that the same amount of added color -- applied in a way that defaced the cover, would have knocked it down in value just a small percentage or not even at all. But instead the touching improved the look of the book. Does it make sense that touching which improves the look of a book slashes the value to a fraction while the same amount of touching, or even more, doesn't affect the value at all not just despite the fact that it defaces the book but actually because it defaces the book? Whatever the 9.4 restored copy is worth today, I don't know. But if the gap between its original price of 155K sold months ago to 595K asking today is partly due to its being overvalued now then perhaps the gap is also due in part to its being undervalued before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBedrock Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 I think it's just one pitchfork. True. So now it all makes sense. a mitchfork Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.tor Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 So where and when is this Detective #27 going up for sale? Didn't have to wait this long to get information on the Action #1 9.0! it's not, that I know of... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfcityduck Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 rob. I am ok with the grade bump book looks great. I am not ok with more work done on the book and it goes from EXT to Mod with more work.If resto was removed a little and it went from 9.2 EXT to 9.0 mod thats cool. look at the 2 scans color was added thats fine and is worth the grade bump but how can it go from Ext to Mod/ The book is worth the grade bump but not lowering the Resto work from E to M just my thought. But something happened in the mean time that was well discussed on here: CGC's restoration grading standards changed. That might be enough to explain everything. That was my thought exactly. Three thoughts though: (1) The resto on the book has changed. Is that what you are referring to? It now has "leafcasting" instead of a prior technique. To effectuate that transition, the prior technique had to be reversible or it had to be removed with some additional paper loss. So if the downgrade from Ext to Mod is because leafcasting was substituted, it begs the question of what Ext. and Mod. really mean: Techniques used or amount of repair? (2) Of course, CGC promotes "leafcasting" now, so color me a little cynical about "grading changes" that would appear to encourage folks to crack open books, get the resto changed to a new technique, and resubmitted (perhaps with a greater amount of work having been done) to get a better "grade," all to the profit of the grading company. (3) My cynicism is not abated if dealers who take advantage of these "opportunities" to the detriment of consumers say "no biggee, the standards changed." But, I'm a cynical guy and there are far too many cautionary stories on these forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VintageComics Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 There are several variables at play (change of standards, subjective grading standards, more/different work done to the book) and it's difficult to know which ones caused the new result. For example, if the new resto work makes the book look better than the old book that alone could have changed the way the book was perceived by graders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_react Posted September 3, 2014 Author Share Posted September 3, 2014 rob. I am ok with the grade bump book looks great. I am not ok with more work done on the book and it goes from EXT to Mod with more work.If resto was removed a little and it went from 9.2 EXT to 9.0 mod thats cool. look at the 2 scans color was added thats fine and is worth the grade bump but how can it go from Ext to Mod/ The book is worth the grade bump but not lowering the Resto work from E to M just my thought. But something happened in the mean time that was well discussed on here: CGC's restoration grading standards changed. That might be enough to explain everything. That was my thought exactly. Three thoughts though: (1) The resto on the book has changed. Is that what you are referring to? It now has "leafcasting" instead of a prior technique. To effectuate that transition, the prior technique had to be reversible or it had to be removed with some additional paper loss. So if the downgrade from Ext to Mod is because leafcasting was substituted, it begs the question of what Ext. and Mod. really mean: Techniques used or amount of repair? (2) Of course, CGC promotes "leafcasting" now, so color me a little cynical about "grading changes" that would appear to encourage folks to crack open books, get the resto changed to a new technique, and resubmitted (perhaps with a greater amount of work having been done) to get a better "grade," all to the profit of the grading company. (3) My cynicism is not abated if dealers who take advantage of these "opportunities" to the detriment of consumers say "no biggee, the standards changed." But, I'm a cynical guy and there are far too many cautionary stories on these forums. If a restored book has different work done to it to get a grade bump and possibly get a less punitive "severity rating" or whatever they call it... who cares? It's a restored book in a purple holder. Do we need a "double deep purple" because the book has had more work done on it? I don't care if Matt Nelson and Susan Cicconi crack this book out and sacrifice a goat over this book to the ghost of Jack Kirby, if CGC notes the sacrificial technique and other restoration on the label and puts it into the new severity scale then the story is over for me. "But Rob, the book used to be..." The book also used to be part of the singularity at the birth of the universe. I don't sweat that either. If CGC grades the book fairly when it walks through their door, then that's all I really need from them. They're not perfect, but this isn't something I'm worried about. They've decided to give us more information with this new restoration scale, not less. I would expect to see discrepancies between the two scales. They're two different scales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gotham Kid Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 ciorac had his supes 1 9.0 ep go to mp. old label book just like the 27. maybe the degree of resto wasn't as extensive by today's standards as it was in yesteryear. not sure that's a good thing though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_react Posted September 3, 2014 Author Share Posted September 3, 2014 I wouldn't get caught up in comparing the two scales. They have a new scale and an old scale. The new scale is a lot more detailed and is... new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfcityduck Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Let me get this straight: CGC has adopted a "new scale" that encourages people to crack out "old scale" books for resubmission to CGC for new restoration (ca-ching) and resubmission (ca-ching) to get a better grade, and you don't see anything noteworthy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_react Posted September 3, 2014 Author Share Posted September 3, 2014 Let me get this straight: CGC has adopted a "new scale" that encourages people to crack out "old scale" books for resubmission to CGC for new restoration (ca-ching) and resubmission (ca-ching) to get a better grade, and you don't see anything noteworthy? I don't see doing anything with restored books being a big money spinner for dealers so, no, I don't see a bunch of red flags. Restored books are still stigmatized. There are some good results out there, but just because someone lists something for 500k that doesn't mean it will actually sell for that. If you're spending your time trying to upgrade restored books to buy a Caribbean island you're really in the wrong business. Restored book resubs isn't really a growth model for CGC either. This is like building a resort community in a leper colony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markseifert Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 It'll be interesting to start seeing sales results from stuff moving from purple label to blue label conserved. edit to add -- I think the new scale is a good idea (more info = better), but it will be interesting to see how the market handles certain things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
