(attempted) Flip of the Day! 12 12

[grapeape]

On 2/11/2022 at 10:45 AM, Rick2you2 said:

What are its comp’s? Anything less than 3-4 in some sort of orderly sense of increase would make me suspicious these days.

This page just sold on 2/7/22

C-Link for $6655. 66 Bids. 

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by grapeape

[Rick2you2]

On 2/14/2022 at 4:06 PM, grapeape said:

This page just sold on 2/7/22

C-Link for $6655. 66 Bids. 

 

Since people are always looking for comp's, how would you know that this isn't a long version of what happened on eBay? Got 3 more like this? What was the price 6-12 months ago? Any sensible relationship (recognizing the market has gone up), and this is a much nicer page.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Rick2you2

[grapeape]

On 2/15/2022 at 4:02 AM, Rick2you2 said:

Since people are always looking for comp's, how would you know that this isn't a long version of what happened on eBay? Got 3 more like this? What was the price 6-12 months ago? Any sensible relationship (recognizing the market has gone up), and this is a much nicer page.

Some people rely solely on comps. Problem with comps are they present as many questions as they do answers. Comps alone tell you virtually nothing. In fact some of my best acquisitions have come from paying well above market value. Yes sometimes you pay more for the best.

• anything that comes up at auction you must consider that there is price manipulation @ka bids without the intention to buy, rather the goal is driving up the final price.

I always look at comps first. I automatically dismiss using comps as a guide for anything that sells on eBay.

I look at comps from dealer sales only when I can compare those sales to a representative sample of auction house sales for like material. Rick2you2 mentioned 3-4 samples and I agree with him use at a minimum that many comps.

 
* so if a dealer shows a representative sample of “sales” of artist A subject matter A in a range of $4500-$7500 and claims to have sales SOLD I then  look for at least the same number of representative sales at auction house within the same $4500-$7500 for like material.

• Detective work: I will ask dealers flat out on work I’m interested in if they are really getting full cash value on announced sales of like work m or if it’s trade involved. I also ask for anecdotal evidence that I can try to verify ( I sold to so and so ) in attempts to see if a market is real, created or a bit of both.

But grapeape, how do you know if the dealers are being truthful? Wait. You mean dealers sometimes stretch the truth 😂

I  try to track down the buyers of these pieces. I quiz them on what they paid or had to trade to get a piece. 

But 🍇 🦍 how do you know the collector is not stretching the truth?

😂 I know a lot of you guys you wouldn’t lie to ole grape ape would you?

Information is king for a checkmate, sure fire way to win at this thing of ours. But it has to be good information. It takes a lot of work. Reported sales and auction results alone tell you very little.

Here’s food for thought. Too often we get stuck on questioning legitimacy of auction and dealer sales without doing the real detective work. That is how do we go beyond who is being deceptive ?manipulating FMV. How does one get comfortable spending above established FMV (GASP) in a speculative collectors market when future ROI may just prove to reward that brash move.

That ebay auction was sketchy af. That being said my gut feeling is that splash page in question could probably be worth up to $7500 at auction if the owner trusts a legitimate auction house and submits to the risk vs. reward we all face listing our art without guarantee.

• Use Pros like HA, whatever their flaws, to find the proper legit competitive market

• Zhamlau is using common sense addressing the real market for Bagley. I think average pages would go in that range $3500-$4500.If I had that Bagley splash I would try to get at least $7-8k. I’m not going to find published recent comps for that  but I’m going to try and set a new comp for it. I’m sure the owner is terrified of selling it and seeing it listed at $10-$12k by years end. I wouldn’t of said that six months ago.

So here’s what comps can’t tell you about the nineties market. We are in that 30 year window when Bagley took on ASM in 1991. You may love Ditko, McFarlane or Romita more. I can tell you Bagley has a huge fan base and I’m betting the money is coming for Bagley. It’s come for all his predecessors on Amazing Spider-Man.

In the next three years I can see this discussion about Bagley art prices and there will be comments like “should’ve bought when I had the chance.”

I am with you guys that the eBay auction smells,  just look at the bidders and recency of seller history.

The Comiclink auction appears legit and imho it was a fantastic page.

Trust, but verify.

I doubted Erik Larsen market for same reasons brought up in this thread having to do with verifying FMV. Now I will never own a Larsen ASM page because I didn’t do my own homework. Pages I could’ve had for $1,000-$3,000 are now five figure $30-$60k. I think about how I didn’t bid on one of those pages on eBay because I was worried about FMV and shill bidders.

• Full disclosure I have 3 Bagley ASM pages in my black hole. I am biased.

• I have zero knowledge of the pages in question, their buyers or sellers. 

But you can be sure I’m asking questions. In fact would the CAF member who had the unsuccessful eBay auction because the buyer “backed out” please join us here on the boards? The way that auction went down upset the integrity of our collecting hobby. More information from you on why the buyer backed out and what you are doing with eBay to sanction that bidder would be appreciated. Like I said you might get more than you were looking for if you open the page up at HA for example.

• I’d also like the winner of that awesome Bagley ASM page sold on Comiclink 2/7/22 to feel welcome to come on the board and share his or her thoughts. I think it’s a really sweet page how did you feel about the competitive bidding?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by grapeape
I did not bid on the CLINK ASM page as I didn’t follow that auction until someone on here put a reminder it was ending on 2/7

[Rick2you2]

On 2/15/2022 at 3:05 PM, grapeape said:

Some people rely solely on comps. Problem with comps are they present as many questions as they do answers. Comps alone tell you virtually nothing. In fact some of my best acquisitions have come from paying well above market value. Yes sometimes you pay more for the best.

• anything that comes up at auction you must consider that there is price manipulation @ka bids without the intention to buy, rather the goal is driving up the final price.

I always look at comps first. I automatically dismiss using comps as a guide for anything that sells on eBay.

I look at comps from dealer sales only when I can compare those sales to a representative sample of auction house sales for like material. Rick2you2 mentioned 3-4 samples and I agree with him use at a minimum that many comps.

 
* so if a dealer shows a representative sample of “sales” of artist A subject matter A in a range of $4500-$7500 and claims to have sales SOLD I then  look for at least the same number of representative sales at auction house within the same $4500-$7500 for like material.

• Detective work: I will ask dealers flat out on work I’m interested in if they are really getting full cash value on announced sales of like work m or if it’s trade involved. I also ask for anecdotal evidence that I can try to verify ( I sold to so and so ) in attempts to see if a market is real, created or a bit of both.

But grapeape, how do you know if the dealers are being truthful? Wait. You mean dealers sometimes stretch the truth 😂

I  try to track down the buyers of these pieces. I quiz them on what they paid or had to trade to get a piece. 

But 🍇 🦍 how do you know the collector is not stretching the truth?

😂 I know a lot of you guys you wouldn’t lie to ole grape ape would you?

Information is king for a checkmate, sure fire way to win at this thing of ours. But it has to be good information. It takes a lot of work. Reported sales and auction results alone tell you very little.

Here’s food for thought. Too often we get stuck on questioning legitimacy of auction and dealer sales without doing the real detective work. That is how do we go beyond who is being deceptive ?manipulating FMV. How does one get comfortable spending above established FMV (GASP) in a speculative collectors market when future ROI may just prove to reward that brash move.

That ebay auction was sketchy af. That being said my gut feeling is that splash page in question could probably be worth up to $7500 at auction if the owner trusts a legitimate auction house and submits to the risk vs. reward we all face listing our art without guarantee.

• Use Pros like HA, whatever their flaws, to find the proper legit competitive market

• Zhamlau is using common sense addressing the real market for Bagley. I think average pages would go in that range $3500-$4500.If I had that Bagley splash I would try to get at least $7-8k. I’m not going to find published recent comps for that  but I’m going to try and set a new comp for it. I’m sure the owner is terrified of selling it and seeing it listed at $10-$12k by years end. I wouldn’t of said that six months ago.

So here’s what comps can’t tell you about the nineties market. We are in that 30 year window when Bagley took on ASM in 1991. You may love Ditko, McFarlane or Romita more. I can tell you Bagley has a huge fan base and I’m betting the money is coming for Bagley. It’s come for all his predecessors on Amazing Spider-Man.

In the next three years I can see this discussion about Bagley art prices and there will be comments like “should’ve bought when I had the chance.”

I am with you guys that the eBay auction smells,  just look at the bidders and recency of seller history.

The Comiclink auction appears legit and imho it was a fantastic page.

Trust, but verify.

I doubted Erik Larsen market for same reasons brought up in this thread having to do with verifying FMV. Now I will never own a Larsen ASM page because I didn’t do my own homework. Pages I could’ve had for $1,000-$3,000 are now five figure $30-$60k. I think about how I didn’t bid on one of those pages on eBay because I was worried about FMV and shill bidders.

• Full disclosure I have 3 Bagley ASM pages in my black hole. I am biased.

• I have zero knowledge of the pages in question, their buyers or sellers. 

But you can be sure I’m asking questions. In fact would the CAF member who had the unsuccessful eBay auction because the buyer “backed out” please join us here on the boards? The way that auction went down upset the integrity of our collecting hobby. More information from you on why the buyer backed out and what you are doing with eBay to sanction that bidder would be appreciated. Like I said you might get more than you were looking for if you open the page up at HA for example.

• I’d also like the winner of that awesome Bagley ASM page sold on Comiclink 2/7/22 to feel welcome to come on the board and share his or her thoughts. I think it’s a really sweet page how did you feel about the competitive bidding?

 

 

 

 

 

I, for my collecting purposes, don’t really pay much attention to comp’s because I don’t sell what I buy. As such, buying art is little different then spending money at the theatre, except, I get a really cool Playbill. Instead, I generally look at how much I like the piece, how much I care to spend at the time, does it fill a known gap in my collection, and only then, FMV. To me, a Bagley ASM page could be $100 or $10,000. It would have to move me exceptionally to consider a buy in either case (or, I’m really itchy about buying anything and that just showed up). Good artist, but none of his pieces hit me. In fact, I have no Marvel art at all. Would I spend more than FMV? Sure, and I have. And, I have seen art that I would buy, but feel like the seller is trying to take advantage so I don’t. Will I ever get rich this way? No. Do I care? Same answer. But, I do have really great memories. And pitchures, lots of pitchures 

[Timely]

Not a flip as far as I know, but the $1,500,000 price tag for this Kirby/Ditko ASM #8 splash is of note!

 

https://www.comiclink.com/itemdetail.asp?back=%2Fsection.asp%3F_SORT%3DYES%26id%3D1398%26f1%3DListDate%26ODire1%3DDESC%26f2%3Di.Publisher%26ODire2%3DDESC%26f3%3Di.IssueNumber%2C%2Bi.Genre%26ODire3%3DASC&id=1556222

[grapeape]

On 2/16/2022 at 10:44 AM, Timely said:

Not a flip as far as I know, but the $1,500,000 price tag for this Kirby/Ditko ASM #8 splash is of note!

 

https://www.comiclink.com/itemdetail.asp?back=%2Fsection.asp%3F_SORT%3DYES%26id%3D1398%26f1%3DListDate%26ODire1%3DDESC%26f2%3Di.Publisher%26ODire2%3DDESC%26f3%3Di.IssueNumber%2C%2Bi.Genre%26ODire3%3DASC&id=1556222

I wonder if Conrad Eschenberg still owns this? Wow neato splash that I remember and  I grabbed the battle page of Spidey and Torch also from this six page story. Conrad held on to this for a long time then I saw it finally offered maybe fifteen years ago for $60-$70k. I don't know if it sold or went back into his collection. Anyone else remember that? Of course we are experiencing a much different OA market today. I think this HA auction coming up is the key to whether or not we see a coming flood of the very best art pieces pried from stubborn collector hands. Never thought I'd see TOS 39 art at auction in my life time. I thought the book would stay together longer. I do understand why its broken up. Money money money.

[Timely]

On 2/16/2022 at 4:01 PM, grapeape said:

I wonder if Conrad Eschenberg still owns this? Wow neato splash that I remember and  I grabbed the battle page of Spidey and Torch also from this six page story. Conrad held on to this for a long time then I saw it finally offered maybe fifteen years ago for $60-$70k. I don't know if it sold or went back into his collection. Anyone else remember that? Of course we are experiencing a much different OA market today. I think this HA auction coming up is the key to whether or not we see a coming flood of the very best art pieces pried from stubborn collector hands. Never thought I'd see TOS 39 art at auction in my life time. I thought the book would stay together longer. I do understand why its broken up. Money money money.

Didn’t this splash sell in a Sothebys auction in the 90’s? I know I saw it for sale (I believe in an auction) a long time ago.

[cloud cloddie]

On 2/16/2022 at 10:44 AM, Timely said:

Not a flip as far as I know, but the $1,500,000 price tag for this Kirby/Ditko ASM #8 splash is of note!

 

https://www.comiclink.com/itemdetail.asp?back=%2Fsection.asp%3F_SORT%3DYES%26id%3D1398%26f1%3DListDate%26ODire1%3DDESC%26f2%3Di.Publisher%26ODire2%3DDESC%26f3%3Di.IssueNumber%2C%2Bi.Genre%26ODire3%3DASC&id=1556222

There’s a lot of aspirational pricing up right now. This Moon Knight page went up a week or two ago for an already lofty 30 something K. Didn’t sell immediately, so relisted 20K more to 57k. 

https://www.comiclink.com/itemdetail.asp?back=%2Fsearch.asp%3Fwhere%3Dsell%26title%3DMoon%2Bknight%26GO2%3DGO%26ItemType%3DCA&id=1551272

[grapeape]

On 2/16/2022 at 2:22 PM, Timely said:

Didn’t this splash sell in a Sothebys auction in the 90’s? I know I saw it for sale (I believe in an auction) a long time ago.

Early nineties Conrad bought the six page story for $22,000 or there abouts.

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

On 2/16/2022 at 5:05 PM, cloud cloddie said:

There’s a lot of aspirational pricing up right now. This Moon Knight page went up a week or two ago for an already lofty 30 something K. Didn’t sell immediately, so relisted 20K more to 57k. 

https://www.comiclink.com/itemdetail.asp?back=%2Fsearch.asp%3Fwhere%3Dsell%26title%3DMoon%2Bknight%26GO2%3DGO%26ItemType%3DCA&id=1551272

Everyone knows if it won’t sell at your first price, you next try raising it

[Lee B.]

On 2/16/2022 at 6:42 PM, grapeape said:

Early nineties Conrad bought the six page story for $22,000 or there abouts.

And was splitting it up for sale in The Comic Buyer's Guide as of 1998.

[grapeape]

On 2/16/2022 at 5:20 PM, Lee B. said:

And was splitting it up for sale in The Comic Buyer's Guide as of 1998.

That’s my page 3 

[Timely]

On 2/17/2022 at 12:11 AM, grapeape said:

That’s my page 3 

Did you pay $4500 for it? If so, you are sitting pretty!

[grapeape]

On 2/17/2022 at 4:19 AM, Timely said:

Did you pay $4500 for it? If so, you are sitting pretty!

 😃 

[Noob19]

I thought this Pelletier JL Incarnate flip was pretty bold. $2500 on eBay now. Originally sold for $175 earlier this year…

[Noob19]

Used my phone for the above. Apologies if the post formatting looks off.

[Hockeyflow33]

All of that seller's prices are ridiculous but he doesn't drop them.

[EXPhysiker]

Batman #56 page 2 splash by Tony Daniel

was sold for $901 in June 2021 at Comiclink

https://www.comiclink.com/auctions/item.asp?id=1483732

now available at Comiclink Original art exchange for $3.500

[Sean I]

Noticed one of the top 5 sales of the week, last week, was already listed for an upcoming Comiclink auction.  Seemed strange, maybe buyers remorse or risky hope for a flip then noticed the sales history. Now not sure what to make of it.

[Unstoppablejayd]

On 3/2/2022 at 9:02 PM, Sean- said:

Noticed one of the top 5 sales of the week, last week, was already listed for an upcoming Comiclink auction.  Seemed strange, maybe buyers remorse or risky hope for a flip then noticed the sales history. Now not sure what to make of it.

The date of the moy sale is way wrong.