Disney+'s WandaVision (2020) 6 6

[jcjames]

5 hours ago, Bird said:

This thread is (possibly) more thought given to these things than appears to have been given by the writers.

 

That's a huge understatement!

Okay, so... yeah, seven episodes of nothings going nowhere. One good back-story episode, and a finale that was pure MCU formula.

The good: The Visions' dialogue of the Ship of Thesus, most interesting part of the whole series. Philosophy of self-identity, love it. Katherine Han's performance was outstanding (a GG or Emmy nomination for best supporting actress I hope) and her backstory along with bringing Darkhold into the MCU was well played. Wanda's final Scarlet Witch appearance, cool, I always wondered how they'd do the head/face frame thing. Well done. And Monica.... jury is still out. Done.

The bad: Wow, well I'd say dozens of unnecessary hints, fakes, references and easter eggs - I mean really, seven weeks of consuming nothing but easter eggs that ALL amounted to nothing. Huge plot-holes opened up for no reason whatsoever, and then left open without ever addressing them (Who was the informant? Doesn't matter. Why did cops outside the hex say there was no Westview? Doesn't matter. Why did Jimmy, looking for a missing-person from Westview, have to meet the cops outside Westview anyway? Doesn't matter. Why was Dottie's blood red? Doesn't matter. Why were there commercials? Doesn't matter. Why was it being broadcast at all? Doesn't matter....) I compared the first seven episodes to a really bad horror movie, and the climax to the GOT season-nine mad dash to the finish.

The ugly: Ralph Bohner. Really. smh.

Overall series grade: C

 

Edited March 8, 2021 by jcjames

[@therealsilvermane]

5 hours ago, Bird said:

I think people should stop referring to that thing as The Vision, it was Wanda's memory of him brought to life by the mind stone, right? It wasn't The Vision. I am not sure the analogy of the ships planks to Wanda's memories of the Vision works...it wasn't Vision's memories (that would be the planks), it was another's person's memory of him and that is far far different. Unless the mind stone as a source of the "memories" is equal to The Vision's memories of himself? 

For me, in hindsight, Westview Vision was "a" Vision. For sure, White Vision is the original Vibranium body and surviving data of pre-Endgame Vision, as they said in their library talk, while Westview Vision has what's left of the Mind Stone, which contains Wanda's memory of him. So if I was a collector of Visions, the original money museum edition is definitely White Vision. But Westview Vision, Vision 2.0 as I'm calling him, was a hero in his own right and had his experience with Wanda and the boys from the beginning of WandaVision. That experience is not made up. It was real, even though it was in TV Land. That makes Vision 2.0 a real living Vision if you akin Wanda to Theseus. While Vision 1.0 defeated Ultron and saved Wanda the first time, fought for Team Iron Man, became Wanda's love, and died in the Infinity War, it was Vision 2.0 who married Wanda, shared a home with her, "fathered" two children with her, tried to help the people of Westview, saved Wanda's life a second time from White Vision, and cleared White Vision's mind to realize it was Vision 1.0 and not a weapon. That experience could be considered just as heroic and significant as Vision 1.0's heroics and experiences. For me, both were Vision.

I theorized many posts back that Wanda possibly mind melded with Vision before she killed him in Infinity War. Clearly, that didn't happen as Westview Vision, while powered by the remains of the Mind Stone, started with Wanda's memories, not an actual downloaded copy of Vision. But this time around, as Wanda said her goodbye to Vision 2.0, maybe as the Scarlet Witch she was able to save Vision's actual memories as Vision's Mind Stone was "absorbed" back into her when he died again. Perhaps this time, she really did mind-meld with him (she did hold on to his face a long time). Perhaps in a future story, Wanda can then combine Vision 2.0's memories and Mind Stone remnant with Vision 1.0's original body and data to create a Vision 3.0.

Edited March 8, 2021 by @therealsilvermane

[bentbryan]

5 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

For me, in hindsight, Westview Vision was "a" Vision. For sure, White Vision is the original Vibranium body and surviving data of pre-Endgame Vision, as they said in their library talk, while Westview Vision has what's left of the Mind Stone, which contains Wanda's memory of him. So if I was a collector of Visions, the original money museum edition is definitely White Vision. But Westview Vision, Vision 2.0 as I'm calling him, was a hero in his own right and had his experience with Wanda and the boys from the beginning of WandaVision. That experience is not made up. It was real, even though it was in TV Land. That makes Vision a real living Vision if you akin Wanda to Theseus. While Vision 1.0 defeated Ultron and saved Wanda the first time, fought for Team Iron Man, became Wanda's love, and died in the Infinity War, it was Vision 2.0 who married Wanda, shared a home with her, "fathered" two children with her, tried to help the people of Westview, saved Wanda's life a second time from White Vision, and cleared White Vision's mind to realize it was Vision 1.0 and not a weapon. That experience could be considered just as heroic and significant as Vision 1.0's heroics and experiences. For me, both were Vision.

I theorized many posts back that Wanda possibly mind melded with Vision before she killed him in Infinity War. Clearly, that didn't happen as Westview Vision, while powered by the remains of the Mind Stone, started with Wanda's memories, not an actual downloaded copy of Vision. But this time around, as Wanda said her goodbye to Vision 2.0, maybe as the Scarlet Witch she was able to save Vision's actual memories as Vision's Mind Stone was "absorbed" back into her when he died again. And perhaps in a future story, Wanda can then combine Vision 2.0's memories and Mind Stone remnant with Vision 1.0's original body and data to create a Vision 3.0.

[Bird]

38 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

For me, in hindsight, Westview Vision was "a" Vision. For sure, White Vision is the original Vibranium body and surviving data of pre-Endgame Vision, as they said in their library talk, while Westview Vision has what's left of the Mind Stone, which contains Wanda's memory of him. So if I was a collector of Visions, the original money museum edition is definitely White Vision. But Westview Vision, Vision 2.0 as I'm calling him, was a hero in his own right and had his experience with Wanda and the boys from the beginning of WandaVision. That experience is not made up. It was real, even though it was in TV Land. That makes Vision 2.0 a real living Vision if you akin Wanda to Theseus. While Vision 1.0 defeated Ultron and saved Wanda the first time, fought for Team Iron Man, became Wanda's love, and died in the Infinity War, it was Vision 2.0 who married Wanda, shared a home with her, "fathered" two children with her, tried to help the people of Westview, saved Wanda's life a second time from White Vision, and cleared White Vision's mind to realize it was Vision 1.0 and not a weapon. That experience could be considered just as heroic and significant as Vision 1.0's heroics and experiences. For me, both were Vision.

I theorized many posts back that Wanda possibly mind melded with Vision before she killed him in Infinity War. Clearly, that didn't happen as Westview Vision, while powered by the remains of the Mind Stone, started with Wanda's memories, not an actual downloaded copy of Vision. But this time around, as Wanda said her goodbye to Vision 2.0, maybe as the Scarlet Witch she was able to save Vision's actual memories as Vision's Mind Stone was "absorbed" back into her when he died again. Perhaps this time, she really did mind-meld with him (she did hold on to his face a long time). Perhaps in a future story, Wanda can then combine Vision 2.0's memories and Mind Stone remnant with Vision 1.0's original body and data to create a Vision 3.0.

yeah, I get you. I just think that my memory of someone is not who they were, it is who I perceived them to be through my own lens. That is not the Vision, it is another being's version of him and therefore not of him at all. But again, I doubt they got this into things in the writer's room, especially after crafting the Theseus part which was very well done.

Edited March 8, 2021 by Bird
spelling & typos

[@therealsilvermane]

10 minutes ago, Bird said:

yeah, I get you. I just think that my memory of someone is not who they were, it is who I perceived them to be through my own lens. That is not the Vision, it is another being's version of him and therefore not of him at all. But again, I doubt they got this into things in the writer's room, especially after crafting the Theseus part which was very well done.

I, too, understand where you're coming from. A similar story element is in the Andrei Tarkovsky film Solaris, where the Solaris planet creates an artificial copy of a cosmonauts' dead wife based on his memory of her and how he viewed her. Obviously the artificial copy isn't the original dead wife.

In Vision's case, I think it's different because Vision is not a human being, but a sentient synthezoid with different rules of life from an organic human being. A "ship" with sentient thought. Vision 1.0 was  birthed from a combination of JARVIS, Stark, Banner, Ultron, the Mind Stone, and a body of Vibranium and wires. If we continue that line of "birth" thinking, the experiences of Vision 2.0 could one day combine with the Vision that remains to become part of who Vision is in the future. Who's to say we aren't witnessing in all these stories from Age of Ultron to WandaVision Ep 9 the continuing "birth" process of a more perfect Vision?

I do think the writers thought a great deal about this philosophical argument of Vision or they wouldn't have included the Ship of Theseus identity puzzle and then have Vision elaborate on it further as he analogized how they are similar to the ship. If Vision's journey in life is akin to the wear and tear on the ship and Theseus's hands touching the wood planks of the ship is akin to the Mind Stone and Wanda affecting Vision, then while White Vision 1.0 makes up the material bulk of who Vision is, Westview Vision 2.0 also can't be dismissed as "just a dream" or meaningless, even though his body no longer exists.

Both Visions mattered in the story and we'll find out in the future if Westview Vision 2.0 will indeed become part of the real corporeal Vision's identity. I think it will, but we'll see.

 

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 3/6/2021 at 1:00 PM, the blob said:

Huh? Action, fighting, blah blah. what we see in marvel movies. Many of us were disappointed it didn't link to other MCU stuff. As noted, if fakePietro is, just in fact, a guy named ralph from that town, they have wasted a big opportunity to come up with a multiverse explanation for bringing the x-men in. I'm fine with dottie being a red herring. she is from a really obscure part of the marvel universe anyway. i had never heard of her before all of this. as for mephisto or dormanu or cthaon being a baddie, none of that was foreclosed by any of this.

It wasn't "what I wanted the whole series to be". I wanted the whole series to be good.

[Bird]

9 hours ago, @therealsilvermane said:

Theseus's hands touching the wood planks of the ship is akin to the Mind Stone and Wanda affecting Vision

yeah, I don' think it is akin...but I can do a little suspension of disbelief if need be

[Bosco685]

Quote

WandaVision set up a big and dangerous villain for Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness, and while exciting, it also represents a problem.

 

The Darkhold is described by Agatha as the “Book of the Damned” and its principal author was Chthon, an Elder God (as in, one of the first beings to rule Earth) and the Earth’s first practitioner of black magic. Chthon’s connection to Wanda and everything that happened in WandaVision goes further than Agatha showing the book to Wanda (who is now in possession of it as seen in the post-credits scene of the season finale), as in the comics, Chthon was key in Wanda getting her powers. First, in one storyline, Wanda was born at Mount Wundagore, a place where the fabric of reality is very thin and which allowed Chthon to imbue baby Wanda with his own mystic power, thus why she’s the one sorceress to wield Chaos Magic. Although the Darkhold has been used to create a bunch of supernatural and dangerous creatures, such as vampires, the true purpose of the book is to grant Chthon a place on Earth, so the inclusion of the book in WandaVision could be setting up his arrival, most likely in Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness.

 

Now, given that WandaVision will directly tie into Doctor Strange 2, there was a lot of speculation over how the show could set up the big villain in Strange’s next adventure, and while there were some big candidates like Nightmare and even Dormammu, the safest bet right now is Chthon, but that isn’t exactly a good thing. Chthon is a massive presence, with a long and rich history, and whose presence on Earth and the MCU could bring an even bigger disaster than that of Thanos and his quest for the Infinity Stones, as his role is that of the God of Chaos. In fact, Chthon rarely appears in person in the comics – and his presence is mostly represented through his powers, such as demonic possession – as he’s such a big threat that the Avengers do everything in their power to avoid his escape. With WandaVision just subtly teasing his presence in the MCU, having him as the villain in Doctor Strange 2 would risk sending the MCU on a path it has been avoiding for years, which is one where its characters (both good and bad) are too hard to believe, introduced without much backstory, and a bit silly, not fully fitting with this universe’s style.

 

[@therealsilvermane]

I just realized that Chthon, though derived from the Greek khthon which refers to the underworld, is also a play on HP Lovecraft's Cthulhu and that Dr Strange's sequel Multiverse of Madness is probably referencing HP Lovecraft's Cthulhu and Elder Gods related tale At the Mountains of Madness.

With that, maybe there is a Chthon connection between WandaVision and Dr Strange 2. I just don't see an entity like Chthon crossing over into other MCU adventures, so it'll get handled in that movie. Maybe Clea, who is originally Dormammu's relation, in the MCU will connect through the whole Chthon thing. Perhaps Marvel will jetison the Mephisto connection to Tommy and Billy and make them purely the progeny of Wanda and Vision.

Edited March 8, 2021 by @therealsilvermane

[TupennyConan]

'...and a bit silly, not fully fitting with this universe’s style.'

Like the name Scarlet Witch & her historical comics costume? 

This is the kind of attitude that gave us the X-Men in black leather or cloud-Galactus.

  

[F For Fake]

We were out of town Friday and Saturday, so we didn't get to watch the finale until last night. I was steadfast in avoiding spoilers all weekend, only to find that, really, there was nothing to spoil. As I predicted, there were no further twists, and the internet was driving itself insane for no good reason trying to figure out a puzzle that was already pretty much complete.

I did enjoy the bittersweet touches of the episode, but I have to say, I was pretty disappointed overall. Not because of the lack of any big reveal, or even because they didn't answer all of the questions they set up. Instead, I was disappointed because the first 2/3 of the series had been so clever and inventive, I was REALLY holding out hope that they'd find a way to create a climax that wasn't just people floating around shooting colorful beams of CGI energy at each other. That's how all of this superhero junk ends: computer cartoons of people floating around firing red and purple and green and yellow lightshows. I don't know HOW I hoped they'd end it, but I was really hoping against hope that the showrunners were smarter than I was, and it wouldn't devolve into another dumb superhero show. Oh well, I still enjoyed it overall.

Looking forward to Multiverse of Madness. Raimi is a genius. Hoping for lots of crazy practical camera work and splatstick humor.

[@therealsilvermane]

20 minutes ago, F For Fake said:

I was disappointed because the first 2/3 of the series had been so clever and inventive, I was REALLY holding out hope that they'd find a way to create a climax that wasn't just people floating around shooting colorful beams of CGI energy at each other. That's how all of this superhero junk ends: computer cartoons of people floating around firing red and purple and green and yellow lightshows. I don't know HOW I hoped they'd end it, but I was really hoping against hope that the showrunners were smarter than I was, and it wouldn't devolve into another dumb superhero show. Oh well, I still enjoyed it overall.

The big finale fight in the town square was a bit mish mashy with all our characters from the past 8 episodes all converging in the square like the big chase in It's a Mad Mad Mad World or something, and I posted earlier that some of it seemed a bit rushed, but I'd argue that the ending of the show was more than just a CGI slug fest. The Vision battle was a slugfest but ended with a nice chess game mind game with Vision 2.0 using the Ship of Theseus puzzle which was a perfect analogy for the difference between he and Vision 1.0. I thought Wanda using runes inside her own hex to neutralize Agatha was kind of clever. And in all the other fast paced slightly rushed action with the other characters, the show still didn't stray from we now know was its true purpose, to both power-up Wanda and give her some "closure" to the tragedy in her life. I thought the quiet ending with putting the boys to bed and having a final Hollywood ending goodbye to Vision 2.0 helped her accept the tragedy and move on. And I guess moving on will be permanently bringing her family back without the need of a giant Hexagon room.

 

[HighVoltage]

Apologies if this was posted & I missed it:

https://www.murphysmultiverse.com/wandavision-10-episodes-long/

This might explain why some things were missed/missing in the wrap-up.

[Bosco685]

13 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

I thought Wanda using runes inside her own hex to neutralize Agatha was kind of clever

 

Never to take away from the show, but come on now. It was obvious from the basement scene dialogue where that was going as a resolution. There was nothing clever about that due to it being tossed in our face.

13 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

And in all the other fast paced slightly rushed action with the other characters, the show still didn't stray from we now know was its true purpose, to both power-up Wanda and give her some "closure" to the tragedy in her life

 

It was great seeing her become the Scarlet Witch - though the closure was a temporary event as she had to say farewell to Vision in the end which was emotional

13 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

I thought the quiet ending with putting the boys to bed and having a final Hollywood ending goodbye to Vision 2.0 helped her accept the tragedy and move on

Someone pointed this out as even more emotional as they reminded readers Billy can read minds so he knew when they were being put to bed what was coming from his mother.

 

[Bosco685]

6 minutes ago, HighVoltage said:

Apologies if this was posted & I missed it:

https://www.murphysmultiverse.com/wandavision-10-episodes-long/

This might explain why some things were missed/missing in the wrap-up.

Ouch!

[the blob]

6 hours ago, Angel of Death said:

It wasn't "what I wanted the whole series to be". I wanted the whole series to be good.

everyone is entitled to their opinion. 

[the blob]

48 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Ouch!

, they had to get rid of a lot of stuff they simply didn’t have time to work on. 

Great, Now we can speculate endlessly on that!

[the blob]

3 hours ago, Bosco685 said:

 

robby reyes needs to get that darn book back!

[Bosco685]

Just now, the blob said:

robby reyes needs to get that darn book back!

[fantastic_four]

This week's Fatman Beyond (Kevin Smith's comics movie podcast) released overnight features him interviewing Matt Shakman, the director of all nine episodes of the series.  Just finished listening to it.

My impression from his impassioned description of what he tried to do in the series wasn't close to what many of us were reading into it, and MANY of the elements he included ended up being the opposite of what he intended them to be.  The 3-D chess anyone tried to infer from the comics wasn't that at all but far closer to the creators trying hard to achieve whatever they could from the perspective of someone unfamiliar with the comics simply trying to tell a story about Wanda and Vision with a set of elements from the comics thrown in randomly and mostly meaninglessly.

I'm more disappointed in the series now than I was before the interview, but for the future the most interesting bit was that Feige insisted on the episodes all being directed by the same person mirroring the way films are--but that the newer series to be released in 2022/2023 will feature multiple directors.  I can't decide if that's better or worse.  

Edited March 8, 2021 by fantastic_four