Heritage's Next Event Auction has started posting books ! 31 31

[woowoo]

On 3/29/2023 at 8:34 AM, rsouxlja7 said:

Just curious...how is this not a restored label with the married & cleaned cover?

 

 

 I would say cover cleaned is always restored. Guess the submeter/seller has some superpower. I did hear that Heritage was part owner of CGC never really looked into it. I do agree the book is 100% restored with cleaned cover alone. I know they always say it was cleaned without acids or this or that 

Edited March 29, 2023 by woowoo

[batman_fan]

On 3/29/2023 at 9:59 AM, woowoo said:

 I would say cover cleaned is always restored. Guess the submeter/seller has some superpower. I did hear that Heritage was part owner of CGC never really looked into it. I do agree the book is 100% restored with cleaned cover alone. I know they always say it was cleaned without acids or this or that 

I have a Batman 15, 9.2 with just cover cleaned and I was told if I resubmit it would get a conserved label.  Maybe they consider cleaning to be preventing future degradation.

[woowoo]

On 3/29/2023 at 9:48 AM, batman_fan said:

I have a Batman 15, 9.2 with just cover cleaned and I was told if I resubmit it would get a conserved label.  Maybe they consider cleaning to be preventing future degradation.

 My Tec 27 was fair to good back before I had it restored to a 4.5 E. I was told the resto could be removed but it will always be Restored because you cannot undo cover cleaned.

I would love to have a unrestored/conserved 1.0 way over a 4.5 E. now days.

Edited March 29, 2023 by woowoo

[Dark Knight]

On 3/29/2023 at 8:34 AM, rsouxlja7 said:

Just curious...how is this not a restored label with the married & cleaned cover?

 

 

Good question!  I'm having a difficult time assessing what makes a book restored vs conserved.  Looking at the notes of the book, to me, it screams that it should be in a purple holder.  There's just a lot of work done to it!!!  It also seems that the very top edge of the book may have been trimmed back then and because of leaf casting, it is now made whole.  I bet some people didn't even know that this book was once trimmed and should really be careful when it comes to buying higher end books.  

Btw, isn't leaf casting the same as having pieces added?  I mean paper is being added to the original comic essentially..

[Funnybooks]

conservation of pulp via leaf-casting is a widely accepted form of preservation that is not considered restoration:

Leaf-casting is a conservation process developed by conservators in Eastern Europe and the U.S.S.R during the mid-1960’s. In brief, it attempts to reintegrate paper pulp into the lost areas of documents through gravity and/or suction

Edited March 29, 2023 by Funnybooks

[BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES]

On 3/29/2023 at 8:59 AM, woowoo said:

 I would say cover cleaned is always restored. Guess the submeter/seller has some superpower. I did hear that Heritage was part owner of CGC never really looked into it. I do agree the book is 100% restored with cleaned cover alone. I know they always say it was cleaned without acids or this or that 

As I understand it, and as most people outside this hobby feel, a thing is not permanently altered by any process that is reversible. Leaf casting can be removed.  If dirt has been removed and you prefer dirt on your book, it can be put back. 

[woowoo]

On 3/29/2023 at 11:57 AM, BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES said:

As I understand it, and as most people outside this hobby feel, a thing is not permanently altered by any process that is reversible. Leaf casting can be removed.  If dirt has been removed and you prefer dirt on your book, it can be put back. 

I was told that once a cover having been cleaned it is 100 percent restored. I hear now that there is a cleaning that is ok. I understand leaf casting can be removed and I also know all restoration can be removed. I have a Tec 27 4.5 E. I was told the resto can be removed but the cover being cleaned cannot. I was also told that my book can be redone now 40 years later with less resto and higher grade. 

 

[Sauce Dog]

On 3/29/2023 at 11:34 AM, rsouxlja7 said:

Just curious...how is this not a restored label with the married & cleaned cover?

 

 

Depends on the wash that was used to clean. I wash covers all the time with non-invasive baths (cleaning only with the water and at most any additives are there to correct the PH levels which are well accepted in Conservation practices) and they don't get Restored (however I have seen those that did use a bleaching agent in the wash get flagged as such, and those are much easier to detect and are going to damage the paper long term if not done correctly)

[adamstrange]

On 3/29/2023 at 3:35 PM, Sauce Dog said:

Depends on the wash that was used to clean. I wash covers all the time with non-invasive baths (cleaning only with the water and at most any additives are there to correct the PH levels which are well accepted in Conservation practices) and they don't get Restored (however I have seen those that did use a bleaching agent in the wash get flagged as such, and those are much easier to detect and are going to damage the paper long term if not done correctly)

A water clean will remove sizing and that is not reversible.  You can add sizing back on, but it will never look like it originally did.

Washing a book is not like washing a car.

[Dark Knight]

I've seen this "new" technique done by a professional restoration expert where he would do a cover bath, which is a non-restorative technique, to make what was once white covered books white again.  It's kinda like a bleach wash, but not really because the book would grade out in a universal label.  Only problem is, is what would be the long term effects of this non-restorative wash?  I had a long discussion about this wash with Tracy Heft and he is very much against due to the above.

[lou_fine]

On 3/29/2023 at 12:40 PM, adamstrange said:

On 3/29/2023 at 12:35 PM, Sauce Dog said:

Depends on the wash that was used to clean. I wash covers all the time with non-invasive baths (cleaning only with the water and at most any additives are there to correct the PH levels which are well accepted in Conservation practices) and they don't get Restored (however I have seen those that did use a bleaching agent in the wash get flagged as such, and those are much easier to detect and are going to damage the paper long term if not done correctly)

A water clean will remove sizing and that is not reversible.  You can add sizing back on, but it will never look like it originally did.

Washing a book is not like washing a car.

And yet it sounds as though they've changed aqueous cleaning from Restoration to Conservation when they updated their definition of Restoration back in the summer of 2014.  

So, I guess they are saying that Mark Wilson was indeed correct when he used to say that his aqueous cleaning of books back in the day was indeed NOT restoration.  

[Sauce Dog]

On 3/29/2023 at 6:57 PM, szav said:

Have any of our resident board number crunchers done an analysis on prices realized for restored vs conserved books?  From what I watch casually it doesn’t look like the market cares in general, but I could be wrong.  It may also make a difference with mega  GA keys but not lesser books.

Unfortunately it is too early to tell any good numbers, as the few golden age books with Conservation I've seen for sale don't have many good other Restored data points to compare them to for an accurate assessment (though I've jumped at buying a few Conserved books since the prices were great compared to Universal grades). Silver and Bronze ages do have a large amount of Restored books out there for excellent data points, but nobody is investing money to Conserve those books and selling em so we can get more data (I've only done a few SA conserved books myself on my own collection, and those I haven't offered for sale yet).

I'm sure we will see more SA conserved books in the years to come, as getting even that 'blue' label is much more appealing then a Restored label if someone is trying to upgrade something like an AF15.


edit: As an example, here is the GPA for TEC92 - one of the last books I jumped at buying which was Conserved. Pretty stark data points to go on and very out of date (I bought that book last year, so the higher price I happily paid isn't recorded on GPA), but what I do know is that Conserved was still a damn good deal - especially when you compare it to Promise Collection copy. I do think GPAs latest update will have a positive effect of Conserved prices now that they are indicated correctly in their price guides (I've been bugging them for awhile to update the color from Restored Purple to Conserved Grey), it is a minor change but I'm sure it will help peoples brains distance Conserved from Restored correctly going forward.

Edited March 30, 2023 by Sauce Dog

[Professor K]

While looking at today's closing auctions I noticed for the first time the cgc labels Superman 3 as Winter 1940. Superman 2 is Fall 1939 and Superman 4 is Spring 1940. Sup 5 is Summer 1940. Sup 6 is labeled 10/11 1940. 

Pretty sure Superman 3 came out December 1939. Shouldn't it be labeled Winter 1939? They label Batman as #1 Spring 1940, #2 Summer 1940, #3 Fall 1940, #4 Winter 1940. #5 Spring 1941, which is correct.

 

[LDarkseid1]

Love watching these live auctions!

[Chicago Boy]

This auctioneer rules 

[Chicago Boy]

Tales of Suspense 39 Tony Stark OA seemed like a steal to me.  

[LDarkseid1]

Wow, AF15 has DROPPED!!! Great time to buy a copy. But as has now been pointed out, because I wasn’t looking close at the book but that color touch removal definitely affected the sale.

Edited March 30, 2023 by LDarkseid1

[Gotham Kid]

Bats 1 8.0 $1,110,000

like I said, it will crush Marvel 1

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

Interesting, the spread between a Bat 1 8.0 and a Bat 1 7.0.   $1.1 Mil v.  $660k

[LDarkseid1]

Jesus, another example with the Tec 27 that shows Action 1 is in a different universe of its own. Thought this would at least break 2 mil.

Edited March 30, 2023 by LDarkseid1