Don Rosa Poll - Pedigree or Collection?

[johnenock]

What will we call those when the time comes?

 

Mine?

[ComicBookGuy]

Don Rosa, welcome to the boards!

It's a pleasure to see you posting here.

No matter what anybody says, whether people agree if your books are a pedigree or not, your books are awesome.

I have about ten of them and I assure you they've found a good home.

Your collection that includes the 1950-1965 stuff sounds amazing, and I'm sure we all can't wait to see it.

BTW, great job on the Life & Times of Scrooge McDuck. I had a blast reading it.

Joe

[Don Rosa-migration]

I didn't notice this series of questions. Would someone send me a private message and explain how I can log in here and ONLY see new messages displayed? There's OBVIOUSLY a better way to see new posts than to hafta read the ENTIRE list like I'm doing!!!

 

>>>>I am curious, however, as to how the books were stored in archival boxes from 1966 on, if archival boxes weren't even commercially introduced until 1979-1980?

 

As someone has already pointed out to you, archival boxes have been around for half a century or more. Why would you think they were invented by Ernie Gerber? When I bought mine, I bought one thousand flip-top archival boxes... I went in with the local University Rare Book Archives to buy about 1,500 such boxes to get a good price (and I benefited from paying a special price given to institutions of higher learning!). We bought from the company Gerber buys from... I think the boxes only cost a buck anna half each. You need to cut out the middle man, eh?

 

But I'm afraid Steve did not let me see what he wrote as quoted on this forum. He made some errors/assumptions which I'll correct here:

 

>>>>ANSWER: Off the rack. All the books from 1966 to the late 1980's were purchased by Don firsthand, everything. He is the original owner.

 

1966 is when I started buying EVERYTHING (except Archies and Harveys) off the rack. I had been buying Superman comics since 1963.

 

>>>>Don is quite the comic-collecting perfectionist. His desire was to pick only the very best looking comics at the time of purchase, and it shows. Don bought his books from three primary locations in Louisville, Kentucky. One main store, a magazine store, and a pharmacy. Without fail, Don was there buying all the books on the day they hit the stand. That was his nature. He had to be there when they hit so he could get the very best stuff.

 

Steve is making some logical assumptions, or being a good salesman? No, I was not such a perfectionist. If I had picked the very best example of each comic off the rack, and made sure they didn't suffer micro-dings during the 3 or 4 moves they went through, all of my comics would be 9.9's, and I would be apparently making about $5,000,000 off 15,000 1970-85 comics. (But I'm doing okay with the 1500 Steve had slabbed!) I would always take an issue from the *back* of the rack so I'd know some kid hadn't been fingering it, but I would not inspect it for lil' dimples at the staples. That's sick!

Yes, I'd always arrive on the day the comics were put out, but only because I had to arrive sometime so I might as well be there then. I don't know where Steve got "three primary locations", but that's true! The Third Street Newsstand (defunct), the Fayette Cigar Store (& newsstand) (where I was at college, probably defunct), then the Cherokee Card Shoppe (& newsstand)(defunct). (There's not much hope for newsstands in modern America!) Finally, I stopped buying comics around 1984, but when DC and Marvel learned that, they started sending me ALL of their publications for another few years. But that's why none of my later comics were slabbed (even if any of 1984-86 are of value?) -- they were a bit bent up by bailing straps and the USPO.

 

>>>>Additionally, Don's method of storing his collection was quite unique. His books were not stored in bags, like a lot of people think. The comics were placed standing up, in archival boxes. No bags, no boards. The collection was housed in his basement and the boxes were meticulously placed and arranged in order on shelving he constructed. He installed a heater/humidifier for climate control and the basement had its own generator just in case of an electrical emergency. All of these perfectionist-like-efforts created optimum storages conditions. That's why the books look the way they do. Just absolutely incredible stuff.

 

This is how Steve saw the comics, but they had not been like that since 1970, especially since I've lived in 4 different places! I kept them in tight, tall stacks on metal shelves in a climate controled room from 1970 to 1980. Then in long comic boxes on metal shelves in a dark climate-controled room for about 5 years. Then I switched to the archival boxes in about 1980, putting the pre-1970 comics in Mylites around 1993. And again on metal shelves in a finished, dark, climate-contoled 30X15 ft."vault" built in one area of that basement. There was no emergency generator. Electricity would never go off for more than a few hours and nothing can change in that short time. And I always lived on top of hills! I would never live with my tens of thousands of books and magazines and comics, anywhere where a FLOOD was possible. A pipe break in the basement? Well, just hope the sump pump would handle it until I could turn off the water. Nothing was stored on the floor! (Anyone who stores anything on the floor in any basement is kinda dumb, eh?)

[Don Rosa-migration]

>>>Either way I look forward to seeing them. What type of grade are the majority of these and the page quality.

 

Well, to ME, since I'm just a fan-collector, they look perfect, unread, just off the newsstand. But to a grader/investor, I imagine they'd be VF.

 

The thing is that the earliest ones, 1948-52 or so, are rougher, since the buyer was *younger*. He was probably about 8 to 10 years old. So he didn't handle them quite as carefully as he did later on, or maybe shared them with careless pals when he was younger, who knows?

[Timulty]

So, I know this is getting really in depth but any Fawcetts in that collection? Big Captain Marvel Fan here!

[Warlord]

My understanding on Pedigrees is that there must be a large depth of collection, consistant high quality, large breadth of collection and must have been an original owner.

 

Depth--Basically # of books.

Breadth--Number of consecutive copies collected and number of titles collected.

Quality--Condition of the books.

Original owner--- Majority of books collected by the owner as the books were printed. Some second hand is possible but not a characteristic of the pedigree.

 

These seem to be the only characteristics of a pedigree that I have heard about. So Don's would apply, would they not? Anyone, have any other info on what determines a "Pedigree"

If those were the only criteria, then there would be one zillion Copper & Modern pedigrees. I think most pedigree purists would say that a pedigree has to have been compiled during a time when it would have been extremely unusual for someone to purchase a huge amount of comics AND maintain them in great condition. These people would say that any "true" pedigree must contain a significant number of books from before 1965 (actually, some of the more extreme members of this group (cough! pedigreeman! cough!) say that only GA pedigrees can be true pedigrees).

 

I think it's rather pointless to try to come up with a definition. Everyone's going to have a different list of criteria. Even if you get some sort of consensus on the criteria you still can't get everyone to agree when it should be applied without exceptions getting carved out.

 

IMHO all that it takes to make or break a pedigree is the answer to one simple question -- is it worth knowing and keeping track of the "origin" of a comic as it finds its way from collector to collector. If the answer is yes -- call it a pedigree. If the answer is "who cares?" then it's not.

 

Simple end to the debate I think!

Actually, I think Timulty's criteria, plus the age factor that I referenced, will govern what gets identified as a pedigree by CGC going forward. But it's a flexible standard that doesn't necessarily weigh all the different factors equally. Thus, a relatively small collection like the Vancouver collection can (and should) get pedigree status even though it contained a relatively small number of books, because the condition was phenomenal and the books are from a period where high grade copies are impossible to find.

 

I think people need to understand that CGC's hands were somewhat tied with respect to existing pedigrees, hence the inconsistencies identified by Deathlok. I think they felt compelled to recognize a lot of pedigrees that already had market acceptance, many of which were identified by the founding dealers purely for marketing purposes, even if such collections might not meet the current tighter standards as to what constitutes a pedigree.

 

You are on the right track where you are talking about marketplace acceptance. That's all that matters -- if there are enough hobbyists who want to track/follow/talk/purchase a "collection" then it's just semantics whether you call it a pedigree or not. Marketplace acceptance = pedigree. I don't consider CGC to be the holy annointer of pedigrees so I'm not going to debate what CGC will call a pedigree or not... But I'd think that CGC would be wise to gauge and follow that marketplace acceptance with appropriate labels denoting pedigress/collections. Else they are doing their customers a disservice.

[LearnedHand]

Thanks for all the information - very helpful.

 

Not to dwell, but maybe you should re-read my posts as you seem to have some things wrong. The two items that were pointed out were that (a) Rosa supposedly put his entire collection into archival boxes starting in 1966 - something that no one in the entire hobby even knew to do at that time (or for years after); and (b) that archival boxes (not boxes made specifically for the size of comic books) were available since 1947.

 

Telling me that archival boxes have been around since 1947 doesn't tell me that Rosa was using them from 1947 (or from 1987 for that matter). I can tell you that Action Comics #1 was on the newstand in May 1938 (with a June date) and that I own a copy - that doesn't mean I bought it off the newstand.

 

As I mentioned in an earlier post - relative to state of preservation, we're now in a discussion over semantics. Thus, my query (as stated) was to try and learn more about how Rosa had such forward thinking (as another of my posts indicated, the Spokane collection was also painstakingly preserved in a refrigerated metal box with no light) in order to preserve his collection so well.

[Warlord]

>>>>

 

I leave it to investors to decide what is or isn't a "pedigree". Oh, and by the way, I think early in this thread someone was "accusing" ME of deciding that my comics should be pedigreed or in any way special, but no, I left 100% of that marketing to Steve... and he seemed to do a nice job at it, made me some money for IRAs.

 

Glad you've come to join the discussion. I'm one of a zillion fans you've greeted at conventions so I'm pleased you're here to share with us.

 

As I recall, your comics showed up on ebay and rapidly began using the "Pedigree" label in the auction titles, hence my reference to "self-proclaimed". The seller (Steve as you say) rapidly self-proclaimed them to be a pedigree, not the buyers.

 

Seems like the verdict is still out on the pedigree vs collection. Looking at the voting it's roughly a 1:2 ratio after about 150 votes..

 

Lots of people are hung up on a crafting a one-size-fits-all definition for what constitutes a pedigree. Seems pointless to me because as soon as these same collectors run into another collection they think should be a pedigree, they quickly carve out an exception if it doesn't meet the definition.

 

I think it's basically marketplace acceptance (MA) -- do collectors CARE about the name of the "collection" from which their comic originated? Some of these "pedigree" criteria are FACTORS in determining whether collectors will care. But I don't think the criteria I've seen can DEFINE what is a pedigree.

 

Collectors ARE demonstrating that they CARE as far as the Don Rosa collection is concerned == MA == pedigree.

[Aman619]

there are only three types of Pedigrees now:

1) the accepted one we have all lived with and/or admired for all the years before CGC labels came along.

2) new finds that are marketed with a pedigree NAME attached that CGC agrees to honor with a label notation.

3) all other NAME collections marketed by dealers that just MIGHT gain acceptance someday, or never will.

 

Today, the process works the same as before CGC --- books are found and brought to market by dealers who talk up the quality of the runs, and attach a name to them so all of us know what to seek out and buy based on their reputation (the books, not the dealer) Except NOW, to sell them, they have to grade them. And they need CGC to agree to help the marketing with an official label notation. So far, they have been willing to award "Collection of" status, but not Pedigree.

 

That may be because the decision needs to be made right away for collections. That is, in the old days, a Pedigree collection had 'forever' to become accepted into comics lore. Now, it gets ONE SHOT! So, in that sense, CGC has taken over the job of Pedigree designation, since after saying "no" up front, they would have to reverse course - - and when does CGC ever do that????

[The Black Hand ®]

I'm sure it's a very nice collection but that's all it is. I hope they all sell well and that people are happy with them. Nicholas Cage books were a collection. Dallas Stevens books were a collection. Edgar Church books were a Pedigree.

[Mushroom]

Don...I say that your books deserve to be a pedigree.

[Aman619]

for the record, I disagree. I think its a gosh darned Pedigree. Starting in 1965 Don Rosa started assemblinbg his collection off the newsstands. And kept going...

 

The only negative against it IMO is its concentration of late Silver and Bronze books. I just think the bar is set too high for Pedigrees now from books generally considered by old-timers to be essentially craap and easy to find. I mean, does this collection compare to Church's? No way! how could it? Church had EVERY GA book and 90% in super HG. But thats an unfait comparison.

 

But for Don Rosa's era, it actual was assembled and cared for in exactly the same way. Had Don Rosa only been 20 years older!!! ....

[Timulty]

A point had been made that Church collected books over 19 years and then 20 years later they were sold. Using that sort of timeline. 84 would be the point of collection stoppage and sell off in 2004. So, timeline wise, it works out. The problem is the perception of the ERA of the books collected. Does this mean, that there will be no copper pedigrees and up in the future?

[tth2]

I have a question that will come into play later on when (or if) I sell the rest. What about an Edgar Church type collection that is bought directly from the Edgar Church guy and kept for even more years by that single buyer?

In 1970 I discovered one of the FIRST comic book collectors, even better than Edgar Church in that sense (do they say he just bought comics for some sort of art reference, didn't care or pay attention to them, tossing them into a dark, dry metal closet?). But I found a guy who collected comics from about 1950 to 1965, keeping them all in order, keeping them in perfect shape, making sure that he had every issue, etc. He wanted to get rid of them and I took them all. Unlike me, he did not collect *everything*, but he collected some nize ztuff. I think it was about 5,000 - 6,000 comics.

So would that not still be a "Pedigree"? But whose? Part of mine? A whole new one? I dunno. I rescued them from oblivion and I've had them much longer than the original owner. I am not the guy who bought them off the racks, but I took them over 100% from the guy who did. What will we call those when the time comes?

Don, that's a great question. You should probably have Steve Wyatt talk with CGC about this, but my guess is that IF:

 

(i) you are able to identify which of the books in your collection are from this original owner (OO) collection, and

 

(ii) this group of books meets the other hallmarks of a pedigree (particularly condition of the books), as discussed elsewhere in this thread,

 

then it seems to me it should definitely be a pedigree. What the pedigree should be called I'll leave up to the marketing experts.

 

Needless to say, as someone who's focused on pre-1964 Silver Age DCs, I am extremely intrigued by what might be in this collection and the grades of the books in there. There are a lot of other Atomic Age/early Silver Age collectors on these boards, who appreciate how difficult it is to find high grade books from this period. Any chance you could give us an idea?

[tth2]

I didn't notice this series of questions. Would someone send me a private message and explain how I can log in here and ONLY see new messages displayed? There's OBVIOUSLY a better way to see new posts than to hafta read the ENTIRE list like I'm doing!!!

Don, I don't think there's a way to log in and see ONLY new messages, but when you go into an existing thread, you should automatically open up at the first new post that was entered since you were last in the thread. If that doesn't happen, then look for a link at the top of the page called "Jump to first unread post." Click on that and it will automatically take you down to the first new message since you last read the thread.

 

>>>>I am curious, however, as to how the books were stored in archival boxes from 1966 on, if archival boxes weren't even commercially introduced until 1979-1980?

 

As someone has already pointed out to you, archival boxes have been around for half a century or more. Why would you think they were invented by Ernie Gerber? When I bought mine, I bought one thousand flip-top archival boxes... I went in with the local University Rare Book Archives to buy about 1,500 such boxes to get a good price (and I benefited from paying a special price given to institutions of higher learning!). We bought from the company Gerber buys from... I think the boxes only cost a buck anna half each. You need to cut out the middle man, eh?

 

But I'm afraid Steve did not let me see what he wrote as quoted on this forum. He made some errors/assumptions which I'll correct here:

 

>>>>ANSWER: Off the rack. All the books from 1966 to the late 1980's were purchased by Don firsthand, everything. He is the original owner.

 

1966 is when I started buying EVERYTHING (except Archies and Harveys) off the rack. I had been buying Superman comics since 1963.

 

>>>>Don is quite the comic-collecting perfectionist. His desire was to pick only the very best looking comics at the time of purchase, and it shows. Don bought his books from three primary locations in Louisville, Kentucky. One main store, a magazine store, and a pharmacy. Without fail, Don was there buying all the books on the day they hit the stand. That was his nature. He had to be there when they hit so he could get the very best stuff.

 

Steve is making some logical assumptions, or being a good salesman? No, I was not such a perfectionist. If I had picked the very best example of each comic off the rack, and made sure they didn't suffer micro-dings during the 3 or 4 moves they went through, all of my comics would be 9.9's, and I would be apparently making about $5,000,000 off 15,000 1970-85 comics. (But I'm doing okay with the 1500 Steve had slabbed!) I would always take an issue from the *back* of the rack so I'd know some kid hadn't been fingering it, but I would not inspect it for lil' dimples at the staples. That's sick!

Yes, I'd always arrive on the day the comics were put out, but only because I had to arrive sometime so I might as well be there then. I don't know where Steve got "three primary locations", but that's true! The Third Street Newsstand (defunct), the Fayette Cigar Store (& newsstand) (where I was at college, probably defunct), then the Cherokee Card Shoppe (& newsstand)(defunct). (There's not much hope for newsstands in modern America!) Finally, I stopped buying comics around 1984, but when DC and Marvel learned that, they started sending me ALL of their publications for another few years. But that's why none of my later comics were slabbed (even if any of 1984-86 are of value?) -- they were a bit bent up by bailing straps and the USPO.

 

>>>>Additionally, Don's method of storing his collection was quite unique. His books were not stored in bags, like a lot of people think. The comics were placed standing up, in archival boxes. No bags, no boards. The collection was housed in his basement and the boxes were meticulously placed and arranged in order on shelving he constructed. He installed a heater/humidifier for climate control and the basement had its own generator just in case of an electrical emergency. All of these perfectionist-like-efforts created optimum storages conditions. That's why the books look the way they do. Just absolutely incredible stuff.

 

This is how Steve saw the comics, but they had not been like that since 1970, especially since I've lived in 4 different places! I kept them in tight, tall stacks on metal shelves in a climate controled room from 1970 to 1980. Then in long comic boxes on metal shelves in a dark climate-controled room for about 5 years. Then I switched to the archival boxes in about 1980, putting the pre-1970 comics in Mylites around 1993. And again on metal shelves in a finished, dark, climate-contoled 30X15 ft."vault" built in one area of that basement. There was no emergency generator. Electricity would never go off for more than a few hours and nothing can change in that short time. And I always lived on top of hills! I would never live with my tens of thousands of books and magazines and comics, anywhere where a FLOOD was possible. A pipe break in the basement? Well, just hope the sump pump would handle it until I could turn off the water. Nothing was stored on the floor! (Anyone who stores anything on the floor in any basement is kinda dumb, eh?)

Thanks very much for your insights into your collecting and storing habits.

[tth2]

The problem is the perception of the ERA of the books collected. Does this mean, that there will be no copper pedigrees and up in the future?

Yes! This is a point several people, including myself, have made on this thread! In my opinion, there shouldn't even be BA pedigrees, let alone copper pedigrees.

[Aman619]

I can see Bronze, especially if they start in 1965 like Rosa's. But totally agree with Copper on up! Give me a break. almost every copy sold was stored nicely. Not that there wont be interest in HG copies, but I find it hard to see what could differentiate one collection from another. Unless - - it was ALL 9.8 or better! But even then, the books would just be one more 9.8 available.

 

A month ago I almost bid on a set of CRISIS all in 9.8. I was esxcited to get them all in one shot and knew my copies were pretty average having read them etc. But luckily I looked at the census - - and saw that already - -there were 40+ of each book in 9.8.

 

not great pot odds for my liking...

[tth2]

I can see Bronze, especially if they start in 1965 like Rosa's.

If the BAs are simply the continuation of an otherwise legitimate pedigree, such as Western Penn, Northland, Mass, etc., then that's fine. As I've said before, I don't believe in pedigrees that primarily start in 1965 or later, such as Boston or Oakland, but others have different opinions. However, to the extent that a "recognized" SA pedigree does start in 1965 and continues into BA, then it would only be fair to recognize the BAs as part of the pedigree too. But a collection that only consisted of BA (i.e., starts in 1968 or later)? No way.

 

Finally, based on the Western Penn books which continue to trickle out, it appears that CGC has applied some cut-off date after which it will no longer recognize books as being Western Penns, even though they're from the same collection. I can't remember what that approximate date is, I want to say late 1970s, but I could be wrong. In any event, I totally agree with CGC's approach on this point.

[Shield]

I'm sure it's a very nice collection but that's all it is. I hope they all sell well and that people are happy with them. Nicholas Cage books were a collection. Dallas Stevens books were a collection. Edgar Church books were a Pedigree.

 

These Don Rosa books are nice. It's a nice collection of books. However, by 1965 the cat was out of the bag for collecting comics. No books in this collection have any major keys in it. It's not a pedigree, period.

I posted this across the street:

How about the concept of a pedigree having KEY issues in it?

The golden age pedigrees are true pedigrees - they were collected and kept together decades before the comic book shop was prevalent. Years before there was any Overstreet Price Guide. These pedigrees generally contain key books, like Marvel 1, Cap 1, Superman 1, Batman 1, etc.

So you have a collection of one owner books that don't have any of the above? Then you'd BETTER damn make sure it's got all the silver age keys. Spiderman 1, Amazing Fantasy 15, Showcase 4, Fantastic4 1, X-Men 1.

 

What? Don Rosa's collection doesn't have any of the above? Then it's a collection, not a pedigree.

[Aman619]

why cant it be a Pedigree from a later era? Is it HIS fault all of the books we now consider keys were published BEFORE he began accumulating his pristine well cared for collection of EVERY comics ever sold (except 2 publishers??)

 

Flipped around, you are stating that if there are no more key books after 1964, then that means there can be no more Pedigree collections??

 

I just think its all lingering BA negative bias. Give it another 10 years, and all collectors will talk about will be Don Rosas, Western Penns, Oaklands, etc etc . All the "collections" now derided as "latter day saints" Too late for the party?? nope. Too EARLY for the party more like it!!

 

PS - - I dont own any of them... I just argue that its complete, its high grade and theyre fabulous!!

 

Lets see 20 more such collections turn up. THEN we can know for sure that "everybody" was putting away equal collections. Maybe they are out there.... I dont think THIS one should be penalized on the ASSUMPTION of being run-of-the-mill.