The ALL Schomburg all-the-time thread... 15 15

[Cat-Man_America]

On 9/12/2021 at 5:37 PM, Badger said:

I have a soft spot for covers that show television in the 40s. Seriously, special effects and everything! This Human Torch cover is also one of my favorites. Managed to snag it at an OafCon in Norman Oklahoma a few years ago.

Badger, love the HT #20 cover, but I'm persuaded by the art style that the Marvel Data base and probably CGC labels have this attribution wrong.  I don't think this cover is by Alex.  It's an excellent cover, but everything about the design, features on the Japanese soldiers, long fingers, "melt splatter" and layout looks more like Vince Alascia's work.  He is attributed to penciling the HT feature story with inking by Al Bellman; I think he might've contributed the cover of this issue as well.

[Robot Man]

I would concur. The Japanese guys are the tip off...

[Cat-Man_America]

On 9/12/2021 at 12:07 PM, Professor K said:

Hey Cat-Man. 46K was way more than I had expected. I was thinking maybe 10. People really love that Shomburg stuff.

I mean this artwork by Sheldon Moldoff sold a few months back on CL for 1,925.

https://www.comiclink.com/auctions/item.asp?back=%2FAUCTIONS%2FSEARCH.ASP%3FFocusedOnly%3D1%26where%3Dauctions%26title%3Ddetective%2Bcomics%26ItemType%3DCA%23Item_1458113&id=1458113&itemType=1#detail

Not even 2 grand. 4 measley percent of what this Shomburg piece went for. And its Moldoff, and Batman! And Moldoff might have been the actual cover artist of the original book which is kind of cool. Plus he really maintained his hand talent all those years later. 

Anyway 45,600.  My point - People really love Shomburg

 

 

This price is pretty much in the ballpark although given the interest in his work it could've just as easily shot right up to 100K.  Schomburg's lesser cover recreations often go for around $30,000.00 but the sky's the limit on stand out pieces.  You're right, part of it is the popularity of the artist's work, but I think there's a premium attached when artists recreate covers they originally produced, because of the added connection with the artist.  Now if it could be verified that Sheldon Moldoff was the original cover artist for 'Tec #36 then that would likely boost the collector value.  

As a side note, I suspect that had Alex's work been properly framed in addition to being stylishly matted, it might've picked up another 10-15K.  Presentation counts a lot with paintings and a carefully selected frame that enhances the overall presentation and adds a complimentary finishing touch to it can add to the final hammer price.

[Professor K]

I didn't know that. I hadn't researched past sales. I just thought most of the recreation art from the GA artists didn't usually hit much more than 10 grand. With the exception of Frazetta stuff. 

[Cat-Man_America]

On 9/13/2021 at 2:40 PM, Professor K said:

I didn't know that. I hadn't researched past sales. I just thought most of the recreation art from the GA artists didn't usually hit much more than 10 grand. With the exception of Frazetta stuff. 

In Jerry Weist's Comic Art Price Guide ...Third Edition from from 2011... Schomburg Timely cover recreations were ranging between 15K to 40K.  I don't think that range accurately reflects what his best Timely recreations would bring today.  The USA #6 cover is strong, but probably would've fallen into the middle range of realized values.  Alex did a number of other classic battle covers that might triple top tier estimates today.  

Whoever won the USA #6 recreation did get a bargain, IMO, based on at 2021 prices.  There's plenty of room for growth.  His Timely paintings don't come up that often and that's an excellent recreation.

[Christopher Story]

[Badger]

On 9/13/2021 at 1:12 PM, Cat-Man_America said:

Badger, love the HT #20 cover, but I'm persuaded by the art style that the Marvel Data base and probably CGC labels have this attribution wrong.  I don't think this cover is by Alex.  It's an excellent cover, but everything about the design, features on the Japanese soldiers, long fingers, "melt splatter" and layout looks more like Vince Alascia's work.  He is attributed to penciling the HT feature story with inking by Al Bellman; I think he might've contributed the cover of this issue as well.

He may have done part but i think the background, at the least, is Schomburg. I can see the argument on the way the Japanese are drawn being not Schomburg but everything else practically screams it to me. Right down to that funky phallus in the upper right corner. Still, I am not an artist so if you insist I am wrong, then I will gracefully yield.

[Hoarder]

In reference to an earlier post, I love the Schomburg Green Hornet covers and think a few are really classics.  Personally, I think 18 and 19 are my favorites.  Historical ? for everyone....is #19 the only time the internment camps are referenced in a comic book?  

Edited September 14, 2021 by Hoarder

[Hoarder]

[Cat-Man_America]

On 9/13/2021 at 9:50 PM, Badger said:

He may have done part but i think the background, at the least, is Schomburg. I can see the argument on the way the Japanese are drawn being not Schomburg but everything else practically screams it to me. Right down to that funky phallus in the upper right corner. Still, I am not an artist so if you insist I am wrong, then I will gracefully yield.

You don't need to yield, the Marvel Data Base & the CGC attributed this cover to Alex.  My humble observations on specific style points are purely subjective and based solely on familiarity with his techniques. 

Also, I'd never insist that the CGC is capable of making a mistake.   There's no graceful way of doing that! 

[mwotka]

Was in Chicago for the weekend and took a break from the pulp fest to go see the Marvel exhibit at the Museum of Science and Industry.  There were many gasp inducing items including a Marvel 1 and so many pages of original art but this was a real highlight for me to see an original Schomburg cover in person.  I had read that HT 16 was one of the only Timely pieces left, are there any others?  The detail up close was really something to see.  And I guess I will add the original Everett page from Marvel 1, since it was right next to the Schomburg.  We were guessing what some of the pieces would go for, I don't know where to even start with these.

[adamstrange]

There are a number of other Timely pieces that survived but, for Schomburg, only the one cover .

[Timely]

I sold this piece a while ago.  I still have a copy of the 1943 Radio Craft Magazine it went to.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Timely

[Robot Man]

On 9/13/2021 at 11:05 PM, mwotka said:

Was in Chicago for the weekend and took a break from the pulp fest to go see the Marvel exhibit at the Museum of Science and Industry.  There were many gasp inducing items including a Marvel 1 and so many pages of original art but this was a real highlight for me to see an original Schomburg cover in person.  I had read that HT 16 was one of the only Timely pieces left, are there any others?  The detail up close was really something to see.  And I guess I will add the original Everett page from Marvel 1, since it was right next to the Schomburg.  We were guessing what some of the pieces would go for, I don't know where to even start with these.

I can’t imagine I would want mere money for that Torch cover...

[Point Five]

On 9/13/2021 at 10:50 PM, Badger said:

He may have done part but i think the background, at the least, is Schomburg. I can see the argument on the way the Japanese are drawn being not Schomburg but everything else practically screams it to me. Right down to that funky phallus in the upper right corner. Still, I am not an artist so if you insist I am wrong, then I will gracefully yield.

I agree that some of the background stuff, and maybe the Torch himself, looks like Schomburg. It really does look like perhaps Alex S started the cover and (for whatever long-lost reason) someone else finished it.

 

[Cat-Man_America]

On 9/14/2021 at 10:17 AM, Point Five said:

I agree that some of the background stuff, and maybe the Torch himself, looks like Schomburg. It really does look like perhaps Alex S started the cover and (for whatever long-lost reason) someone else finished it.

 

Even if Alex had nothing to do with this particular cover, it's still excellent work.  Providing proper attribution isn't critical except as a general discussion point to make sure the history is correct and make sure everyone involved gets recognized.  Anyone would be proud to have this great book/cover in their collection.  Badger has an awesome comic.

As a suggestion to collectors trying to assess differences between artists in lieu of a signature, scrutinize details artist's tend to repeat such as torso work, explosions (melting sequences), facial features and even racial stereotypes artists used as popular propaganda.  Styles may change over time, but that tends to be gradual.  Indeed, there are a few Schomburg covers which look rushed.  They're rare, but you can usually tell it's the artist's work even when he was under workload pressure.  

It's easy enough comparing examples of each artist's attributed works for folks to decide for themselves which artist contributed defining touches.  For instance, if there isn't any doubt that the B&W cover art for HT #16 is by Alex Scomburg, closely examine it then compare the line work to the cover of #20.

No favoritism is intended, ...I'm loving all GA Timelys. 

Edited September 15, 2021 by Cat-Man_America
ale added, ...it's time for a brew!

[Point Five]

On 9/14/2021 at 3:37 PM, Cat-Man_America said:

Even if Alex had nothing to do with this particular cover, it's still excellent work.  Providing poper attribution isn't critical except as a general discussion point to try and get the history right.  Anyone would be proud to have this great book/cover in their collection.  Badger has an awesome comic.

As a suggestion to collectors trying to assess differences between artists in lieu of a signature, scrutinize details artist's tend to repeat such as torso work, explosions (melting sequences), facial features and even racial stereotypes artists used as popular propaganda.  Styles may change over time, but that tends to be gradual.  Indeed, there are a few Schomburg covers which look rushed.  They're rare, but you can usually tell it's the artist's work even when he was under workload pressure.  

It's easy enough comparing examples of each artist's attributed works for folks to decide for themselves which artist contributed defining touches.  For instance, is there isn't any doubt that the B&W cover art for HT #16 is by Alex Scomburg..  Closely examine it then compare the line work to the cover of #20.

No favoritism is intended, ...I'm loving all GA Timelys. 

Good thoughts; agree with all! Comparing #16 and #20 then... the background of #20 has a number of fairly distinctive Schomburg touches (the cool trick of inverting inks to suggest shadow on the brickwork, the 'negative' rivets in the shadows, the inkwork on the explosions). Those areas really look like him.

A strike against Schomburg doing the #20 cover might be the inking on the Torch himself; while detailed, it feels less delicate, simplified and less precise in the anatomy than on the #16. But that doesn't rule out some variation on the 'Alex S in a rush, got 3/4ths of the cover done and then someone else took over' scenario.

 

[Cat-Man_America]

On 9/14/2021 at 3:08 PM, Point Five said:

Good thoughts; agree with all! Comparing #16 and #20 then... the background of #20 has a number of fairly distinctive Schomburg touches (the cool trick of inverting inks to suggest shadow on the brickwork, the 'negative' rivets in the shadows, the inkwork on the explosions). Those areas really look like him.

A strike against Schomburg doing the #20 cover might be the inking on the Torch himself; while detailed, it feels less delicate, simplified and less precise in the anatomy than on the #16. But that doesn't rule out some variation on the 'Alex S in a rush, got 3/4ths of the cover done and then someone else took over' scenario.

 

 

Hopefully Badger will post his recently acquired Promise copy of this book in this thread; it's a beauty! 

In the interim, here's my moderate restored copy (7.5)...

While on the topic of attributions, in my files I came across an old scan of a mid-grade copy of MM #70 that I used to own, fully attributed to Vince Alascia by the CGC...

Vince does a fine job on his Torch covers, but his execution is notably different than Alex's.  

The stylistic "tells" to examine are faces, fingers, the Torch's anatomy (torso), melts and fedoras.  

Hopefully this reference will assist collectors in corroborating which artist contributed work irrespective of attributions on labels. 

[Hoarder]

[Figment]

Not exactly sure how this one hasn't been posted yet, but I am happy to help fill the gaps.