C2E2 Variant Drama 25 25

[SpineTic]

On 9/21/2022 at 9:05 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

A large portion of collectibles consumers learned nothing from the 90's. I don't want to hear them cry about it in the coming years when they spent thousands on their collection and it ends up being worthless.

A lot of these collectibles consumers probably weren't even born in the 90's.

[Sigur Ros]

On 9/21/2022 at 8:47 AM, ak47po said:

More acetate covers coming. C2E2 started a trend.

 

Acetates aren't new, it's just that the buying privileges of Wutnot's representatives made these ones newsworthy.  Then, of course, they were found to be illegitimate....and given special favors at CGC.

[SkOw]

On 9/21/2022 at 9:05 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

A large portion of collectibles consumers learned nothing from the 90's. I don't want to hear them cry about it in the coming years when they spent thousands on their collection and it ends up being worthless.

I was just saying something similar to a buddy of mine! It will be sobering when limited 3000 books they spent over 100 bucks each on can be found in dollar bins. 

[Dr. Balls]

On 9/21/2022 at 7:05 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

A large portion of collectibles consumers learned nothing from the 90's. I don't want to hear them cry about it in the coming years when they spent thousands on their collection and it ends up being worthless.

The problem is that in the mid-90's, you dropped $20 for a variant cover. That's $40 in 2022 dollars. These people are dropping several hundred dollars on variants. It may have been a problem in the 90's - but the problem now is magnitudes of what we've seen before. The variant glut was a factor in the hobby crash back then - and very little money was at stake for collectors compared to what they are blowing on it now.

The crying is going to be when they are 40 years old and still living in an apartment with no chance of scraping enough money for a down payment on a house because they blew it on a stack of plastic that has no resale value. They'll be crying that life is unfair or that everyone else is to blame why they don't have any money - and they'll soon find out that acetate won't soak up those crocodile tears.

Edited October 2, 2022 by Dr. Balls

[Underground44]

On 10/3/2022 at 3:22 AM, Dr. Balls said:

The problem is that in the mid-90's, you dropped $20 for a variant cover. That's $40 in 2022 dollars. These people are dropping several hundred dollars on variants. It may have been a problem in the 90's - but the problem now is magnitudes of what we've seen before. The variant glut was a factor in the hobby crash back then - and very little money was at stake for collectors compared to what they are blowing on it now.

The crying is going to be when they are 40 years old and still living in an apartment with no chance of scraping enough money for a down payment on a house because they blew it on a stack of plastic that has no resale value. They'll be crying that life is unfair or that everyone else is to blame why they don't have any money - and they'll soon find out that acetate won't soak up those crocodile tears.

It's impossible to compare the 90’s to today. It's such a different world where people in Australia or Japan can buy your comic book online in real time instantly. The world is a much smaller place and that makes the market so much bigger. 
I honestly think that this is just how the comic book “industry” is now
Some people buy books to read. Some buy to ‘invest’. Some to flip. Some because there’s a movie or series coming out. 
People also have ALL the information available at their finger tips now, which includes all the risks and rewards of buying books. That wasn't the case in the 90’s.
I really can't see the problem and the comparisons don't make sense to me. 

[D2]

On 10/2/2022 at 5:22 PM, Underground44 said:

It's impossible to compare the 90’s to today. It's such a different world where people in Australia or Japan can buy your comic book online in real time instantly. The world is a much smaller place and that makes the market so much bigger. 
I honestly think that this is just how the comic book “industry” is now
Some people buy books to read. Some buy to ‘invest’. Some to flip. Some because there’s a movie or series coming out. 
People also have ALL the information available at their finger tips now, which includes all the risks and rewards of buying books. That wasn't the case in the 90’s.
I really can't see the problem and the comparisons don't make sense to me. 

True. 
And in the 90s… 

If you wanted to listen to music, you had to use a CD player. 
If you wanted to watch a new release movie, you had to line up outside the theatre before it opened. 
If you wanted to play a video game, you could go to an arcade or fire up your Super Nintendo on your massive 32” floor mounted television set, which weighed more than your Pontiac Sunfire. 
You wanted a comic book that was popular, your local dealer MIGHT bother with the struggle, going to church conventions to scrape up that Spawn #4, which is literally nowhere to be found. 
Wanted to text and chat with your crush? You’re spending your entire warm Saturday during the summer, indoors, on your Pentium 133 with 16 megabytes of ram, on IRC or ICQ…

Yeah, things were much different in the 90s. 
And comics were a much different thing. 

[Underground44]

On 10/3/2022 at 8:42 AM, D2 said:

True. 
And in the 90s… 

If you wanted to listen to music, you had to use a CD player. 
If you wanted to watch a new release movie, you had to line up outside the theatre before it opened. 
If you wanted to play a video game, you could go to an arcade or fire up your Super Nintendo on your massive 32” floor mounted television set, which weighed more than your Pontiac Sunfire. 
You wanted a comic book that was popular, your local dealer MIGHT bother with the struggle, going to church conventions to scrape up that Spawn #4, which is literally nowhere to be found. 
Wanted to text and chat with your crush? You’re spending your entire warm Saturday during the summer, indoors, on your Pentium 133 with 16 megabytes of ram, on IRC or ICQ…

Yeah, things were much different in the 90s. 
And comics were a much different thing. 

Exactly. That’s why there will never be a “crash” like we saw back then. I’ve been listening to people say that the industry is doomed for at least ten years.

[drotto]

Jump anything (or most books) modern.  They are not going to hold value, and are mainly about gimmicks.

[Dr. Balls]

On 10/2/2022 at 3:22 PM, Underground44 said:

I really can't see the problem and the comparisons don't make sense to me. 

I'll admit, I'm kind of operating on the idea that companies sell "exclusives" for $100-$300, but I am leaving out that some places charge $40 for a variant at their table at a convention - which is not terrible - It's the aftermarket jump in price that is not sustainable. 

For instance: Lady Death Masters #1 just came out, there are EIGHT different variants ranging from $25 - $489 and ALL but ONE are sold out. To compare, Lady Death Blasphemy #1 came out a year ago (roughly) and I gave up trying to count all the different variants - so we'll focus on the one I bought: the Chamber of Chills homage cover. It was limited and have a couple variations. A typical b&w version of the variant sold for $99 at the end of 2021. When it sells (not a lot of brisk sales) it sells for $35. The one I bought cost me $40 + shipping on a BIN. Is that a problem? Not for me - because I'm not the one who paid $100 for a book that's only worth $40 a year later.

There is something deeper at work with our brains, the manipulation of our emotions by social media posts. There's a reason the human brain needs to slap down stacks of cash at every "exclusive" that comes out. You think publishers haven't put together that the more "exclusives" they put out, the more smooth-brained collectors snap them up? Some of these people's brains squirt dopamine like a cheap porn star the minute someone drops a variant. THAT is the problem - and to each their own, we're all chiming in here with out opinions. Mine is no more important than anyone elses. I had a comic shop in the 90s, and I sold $20 variants to people left and right, that's my perspective I can lend to this discussion.

[Underground44]

On 10/4/2022 at 1:15 AM, Dr. Balls said:

I'll admit, I'm kind of operating on the idea that companies sell "exclusives" for $100-$300, but I am leaving out that some places charge $40 for a variant at their table at a convention - which is not terrible - It's the aftermarket jump in price that is not sustainable. 

For instance: Lady Death Masters #1 just came out, there are EIGHT different variants ranging from $25 - $489 and ALL but ONE are sold out. To compare, Lady Death Blasphemy #1 came out a year ago (roughly) and I gave up trying to count all the different variants - so we'll focus on the one I bought: the Chamber of Chills homage cover. It was limited and have a couple variations. A typical b&w version of the variant sold for $99 at the end of 2021. When it sells (not a lot of brisk sales) it sells for $35. The one I bought cost me $40 + shipping on a BIN. Is that a problem? Not for me - because I'm not the one who paid $100 for a book that's only worth $40 a year later.

There is something deeper at work with our brains, the manipulation of our emotions by social media posts. There's a reason the human brain needs to slap down stacks of cash at every "exclusive" that comes out. You think publishers haven't put together that the more "exclusives" they put out, the more smooth-brained collectors snap them up? Some of these people's brains squirt dopamine like a cheap porn star the minute someone drops a variant. THAT is the problem - and to each their own, we're all chiming in here with out opinions. Mine is no more important than anyone elses. I had a comic shop in the 90s, and I sold $20 variants to people left and right, that's my perspective I can lend to this discussion.

Well said. I agree that the social media manipulation is killing peoples brains. Human beings are insufficiently_thoughtful_persons and other people are always going to take advantage of that. Every single book has a “first appearance” now too which has the same effect. 

[Ryan.]

On 10/2/2022 at 7:11 PM, Underground44 said:

I’ve been listening to people say that the industry is doomed for at least ten years.

They've been saying it since the 40s.

[Qalyar]

On 10/3/2022 at 9:15 AM, Dr. Balls said:

I'll admit, I'm kind of operating on the idea that companies sell "exclusives" for $100-$300, but I am leaving out that some places charge $40 for a variant at their table at a convention - which is not terrible - It's the aftermarket jump in price that is not sustainable. 

For instance: Lady Death Masters #1 just came out, there are EIGHT different variants ranging from $25 - $489 and ALL but ONE are sold out. To compare, Lady Death Blasphemy #1 came out a year ago (roughly) and I gave up trying to count all the different variants - so we'll focus on the one I bought: the Chamber of Chills homage cover. It was limited and have a couple variations. A typical b&w version of the variant sold for $99 at the end of 2021. When it sells (not a lot of brisk sales) it sells for $35. The one I bought cost me $40 + shipping on a BIN. Is that a problem? Not for me - because I'm not the one who paid $100 for a book that's only worth $40 a year later.

There is something deeper at work with our brains, the manipulation of our emotions by social media posts. There's a reason the human brain needs to slap down stacks of cash at every "exclusive" that comes out. You think publishers haven't put together that the more "exclusives" they put out, the more smooth-brained collectors snap them up? Some of these people's brains squirt dopamine like a cheap porn star the minute someone drops a variant. THAT is the problem - and to each their own, we're all chiming in here with out opinions. Mine is no more important than anyone elses. I had a comic shop in the 90s, and I sold $20 variants to people left and right, that's my perspective I can lend to this discussion.

Coffin Comics stuff is ... weird, and I don't think they're representative of the market. Virtually all the Lady Death limited-run stuff sells out. Relatively little of it appears on the secondary market, so it's safe to assume that it's not going to some misguided market of short-term flippers. I guess there could be people buying these high-priced limited variants as mid- or long-term speculation buys, but I don't think that makes much sense either. Lady Death isn't likely to become a suddenly-hot mainstream property (technically she even already had a film adaptation, kinda sorta). And gambling on high-cover-price books from a really niche indie publisher seems dumber than most speculation plays.

No, I think the Coffin limiteds sell out because Lady Deah (and Brian Pulido, more broadly) has a small but dedicated following that buys up pretty much all the related merchandise. I assume the number of those collectors is roughly parallel to the number of copies in those limited runs. That's why we don't see piles of them regurgitated on eBay; they're going into the personal collections of people invested in the franchise, and who want to have what are in a lot of ways limited edition art prints of Lady Death as drawn by various cover artists.

On the other hand, I suspect most of the buyers of Counterpoint's books do think that they're investments because they are rare and gimmicky. There's little (at best) story to any of the Counterpoint books. There are no characters to be dedicated fans of. Everything Counterpoint produces is literally just a delivery engine for endless variants. It... makes very little sense to me, but I think some people with huge stacks of these are going to be very, very unhappy at some point in the near future.

The economics of Marvel or DC books with Too Many Covers is likely another thing entirely. The big question in my mind is how store variants, specifically, are judged by future collectors. I think the answer will be "poorly", but we'll have to see. Stuff like convention releases or especially RRP variants have a pretty good stake to relevancy so long as their base books have appeal. I don't think the Batman 608 RRP or Saga 1 DRS/C2E2 are going to have their price floor fall out from under them any time in the foreseeable future, absent a total collapse of the collectibles sector.

[valiantman]

It takes too long to go into all the details, but sportscards have been ahead of comics for decades. The number printed (and numbered) keeps getting lower and lower, all the way down to 1-of-1 unique-not-another-in-the-world sportscards and they can be absolutely worthless, even as 1-of-1 unique.

The question that MUST be asked when looking at variants is... DOES THE COMIC MATTER IN ITS REGULAR EDITION?

If the answer is "no, this book would be worthless if it was the regular edition" then there is a very sad future for MOST of these variants.

Variants of books that do matter, like Ultimate Fallout #4 or Edge of Spider-Verse #2 are going to stay important because the regular edition is important. The book is important with-or-without the variant cover.

Variants of books that would be worthless if they were regular editions rely on their "limitedness" and it's just a matter of time before 1-of-1 is as common in comics as it is in sportscards.  Even the limited-to-100 variants of books no one cares about (in any other edition) will be "limited" to 100 books with more supply than demand.

[Tnexus]

Look, if people are buying and selling Funko's, which are the most boring toys in the world for thousands of dollars, is anyone truly surprised that people are paying $100 for niche comics?

[Sigur Ros]

On 10/3/2022 at 1:14 PM, Tnexus said:

Funko's, which are the most boring toys in the world 

 

[F For Fake]

On 10/3/2022 at 12:59 PM, Qalyar said:

Coffin Comics stuff is ... weird, and I don't think they're representative of the market. Virtually all the Lady Death limited-run stuff sells out. Relatively little of it appears on the secondary market, so it's safe to assume that it's not going to some misguided market of short-term flippers. I guess there could be people buying these high-priced limited variants as mid- or long-term speculation buys, but I don't think that makes much sense either. Lady Death isn't likely to become a suddenly-hot mainstream property (technically she even already had a film adaptation, kinda sorta). And gambling on high-cover-price books from a really niche indie publisher seems dumber than most speculation plays.

No, I think the Coffin limiteds sell out because Lady Deah (and Brian Pulido, more broadly) has a small but dedicated following that buys up pretty much all the related merchandise. I assume the number of those collectors is roughly parallel to the number of copies in those limited runs. That's why we don't see piles of them regurgitated on eBay; they're going into the personal collections of people invested in the franchise, and who want to have what are in a lot of ways limited edition art prints of Lady Death as drawn by various cover artists.

On the other hand, I suspect most of the buyers of Counterpoint's books do think that they're investments because they are rare and gimmicky. There's little (at best) story to any of the Counterpoint books. There are no characters to be dedicated fans of. Everything Counterpoint produces is literally just a delivery engine for endless variants. It... makes very little sense to me, but I think some people with huge stacks of these are going to be very, very unhappy at some point in the near future.

The economics of Marvel or DC books with Too Many Covers is likely another thing entirely. The big question in my mind is how store variants, specifically, are judged by future collectors. I think the answer will be "poorly", but we'll have to see. Stuff like convention releases or especially RRP variants have a pretty good stake to relevancy so long as their base books have appeal. I don't think the Batman 608 RRP or Saga 1 DRS/C2E2 are going to have their price floor fall out from under them any time in the foreseeable future, absent a total collapse of the collectibles sector.

I think the Lady Death analysis is spot-on. Lady Death/Chaos/Coffin/Whatever fans seem to align more with horror fandom than strictly comic book fandom. And horror fans are fiercely devoted, and more than happy to pay $$$ for weird, random, cult-appeal items. 

[BlowUpTheMoon]

[Sigur Ros]

Saw America's favorite couple today..

[jcjames]

 

[mattn792]

On 10/3/2022 at 6:14 PM, BlowUpTheMoon said: