ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[DC#]

On 12/22/2023 at 11:37 AM, comicwiz said:

Two different s/n's:

Green 7.0: 4115260001
Blue 7.5:  4115170002

They are both available through lookup, meaning someone had to input them into CGC's database on the very same day. This simply is not possible unless the same person who has access to populating the database also has access to the tooling to make the switch. Remember, the same book went from a green label to blue label.

He could have luckily mined a Blue 7.5 s/n, but the same day as the green label got graded?

At this point, we need to eliminate every possible scenario that this isn't an insider. I can't think of one.

Reholders do not get a new date - they maintain the original grade date.    So if he reholdered the 7.5 after the August date it would still show August.   

I know this because I just reholdered a FF5 in a 2nd Gen holder - it shows up in CGC census photos with new holder but original 2011 grade date.  

 Take the legit Blue 7,5 out - insert green 7.0 for reholder - resubmit original 7.5 as a raw for new cert number.    

Edited December 22, 2023 by DC#

[namisgr]

On 12/22/2023 at 2:17 PM, comicwiz said:

I did warn everyone to brace themselves 

Been braced and confused, for so long it's not true...

[OJ Pimpson]

On 12/22/2023 at 9:38 AM, MatterEaterLad said:

Has @CGC Mike said anything yet?

NOT blaming Mike for the silence. He's one of the best mods we've ever had. I'm sure he's well aware of what's going on but not allowed to say at the moment (unless I missed it). Who knows, there may be an active police investigation going on and they don't want to show their hand before they nab the guy(s) laundering books. They could be a big dealer for all we know, an auction house employee, etc.

It’s shocking that they let this go on for a week without even an acknowledgment that they are aware of the situation and are investigating. However this is dwarfes the “controversies” of the past like the acetate cover so maybe they are overhauling their PR playbook. By the way their PR Playbook had one play and it was this…

 

 

[comicwiz]

On 12/22/2023 at 2:41 PM, DC# said:

Reholders do not get a new date - they maintain the original grade date.    So if he reholdered the 7.5 after the August date it would still show August.

But doesn't this condition require the s/n to remain the same?

[Timed]

On 12/22/2023 at 1:37 PM, comicwiz said:

Two different s/n's:

Green 7.0: 4115260001
Blue 7.5:  4115170002

They are both available through lookup, meaning someone had to input them into CGC's database on the very same day. This simply is not possible unless the same person who has access to populating the database also has access to the tooling to make the switch. Remember, the same book went from a green label to blue label.

He could have luckily mined a Blue 7.5 s/n, but the same day as the green label got graded?

At this point, we need to eliminate every possible scenario that this isn't an insider. I can't think of one.

 

On 12/22/2023 at 1:39 PM, sledgehammer said:

I should have been clearer. They were different submissions, not the same one.

No reason the same submitter would have sub #s so far apart, I believe?

Actually, I will say that there are only 9 submissions apart between both numbers. I know that some people submit same-issue books in separate submissions as to not get any grading bias. If the original submitter sent in 2 181's in separate subs but in the same box, it would make sense.

But this is only valid if the fraudster bought both the green and blue from the same guy.

[thehumantorch]

On 12/22/2023 at 11:40 AM, agamoto said:

The problem is, there's absolutely no way of knowing how many others out there have also taken advantage of this process flaw in the same way. The bulk of any blame needs to rest at the feet of the company who dares to call themselves Certify Guaranty Company. 

Agreed, we don't know how deep this iceberg goes.  CGC certainly deserves blame here, it's their job to design and sell a product that we can trust.  But honestly, how foolproof and perfect can a $50 mass produced plastic sleeve be?  If there's enough money on the line don't you think that someone with enough time and motivation will experiment with  CGC cases and look for loopholes in their processes until they find a way to pull this off?  I suspect there's no such thing as a foolproof CGC case.

We can all proportionate the blame where we want and CGC certainly deserves some of the blame but let's not forget that this POS seller is breaking the law and deliberately ripping off comic book fans for an easy buck. 

[Superman2006]

On 12/22/2023 at 2:41 PM, DC# said:

On 12/22/2023 at 2:37 PM, comicwiz said:

Two different s/n's:

Green 7.0: 4115260001
Blue 7.5:  4115170002

They are both available through lookup, meaning someone had to input them into CGC's database on the very same day. This simply is not possible unless the same person who has access to populating the database also has access to the tooling to make the switch. Remember, the same book went from a green label to blue label.

He could have luckily mined a Blue 7.5 s/n, but the same day as the green label got graded?

At this point, we need to eliminate every possible scenario that this isn't an insider. I can't think of one.

Reholders do not get a new date - they maintain the original grade date.    So if he reholdered the 7.5 after the August date it would still show August.   

I know this because I just reholdered a FF5 in a 2nd Gen holder - it shows up in CGC census photos with new holder but original 2011 grade date.  

 Take the legit Blue 7,5 out - insert green 7.0 for beholder - resubmit original 7.5 as a raw for new cert number.  

You beat me to it... Also, one, both, or none of the green and blue labels may have been submitted by the scammer. He might have just acquired them on the after market and then did the old switcheroo later on...

[sledgehammer]

On 12/22/2023 at 1:46 PM, thehumantorch said:

 I suspect there's no such thing as a foolproof CGC case.

Someone already suggested an inner well that has the label sealed inside of it, yesterday. they need to figure this out.

[Superman2006]

On 12/22/2023 at 2:46 PM, Superman2006 said:

On 12/22/2023 at 2:41 PM, DC# said:

On 12/22/2023 at 2:37 PM, comicwiz said:

Two different s/n's:

Green 7.0: 4115260001
Blue 7.5:  4115170002

They are both available through lookup, meaning someone had to input them into CGC's database on the very same day. This simply is not possible unless the same person who has access to populating the database also has access to the tooling to make the switch. Remember, the same book went from a green label to blue label.

He could have luckily mined a Blue 7.5 s/n, but the same day as the green label got graded?

At this point, we need to eliminate every possible scenario that this isn't an insider. I can't think of one.

Reholders do not get a new date - they maintain the original grade date.    So if he reholdered the 7.5 after the August date it would still show August.   

I know this because I just reholdered a FF5 in a 2nd Gen holder - it shows up in CGC census photos with new holder but original 2011 grade date.  

 Take the legit Blue 7,5 out - insert green 7.0 for beholder - resubmit original 7.5 as a raw for new cert number.  

Expand  

You beat me to it... Also, one, both, or none of the green and blue labels may have been submitted by the scammer. He might have just acquired them on the after market and then did the old switcheroo later on...

In fact, it's doubtful the scammer would have submitted the green label; you'd think he'd just buy green labels to turn them into blue. No reason he'd submit a green label...

[comicwiz]

What I know for certain is this is the second case I've discovered where a green qualified IH 181 (first missing page 10, incomplete) ending-up in a blue label. The second missing the MVS and a panel from pg 14, also ending-up in a blue label.

Occam's razor may not be the most appealing to the raw nerves it exposes, nor does it uncomplicate an already troubling pattern, but I have a hard time reconciling this is not someone with some sort of access right now. 

Edited December 23, 2023 by comicwiz

[Superman2006]

On 12/22/2023 at 2:47 PM, sledgehammer said:

On 12/22/2023 at 2:46 PM, thehumantorch said:

 I suspect there's no such thing as a foolproof CGC case.

Someone already suggested an inner well that has the label sealed inside of it, yesterday. they need to figure this out.

I mentioned a few pages back that CGC used to seal the label to the inner well. Some boardie(s) may know the approximate date when they stopped doing that...

[namisgr]

On 12/22/2023 at 2:41 PM, DC# said:

Reholders do not get a new date - they maintain the original grade date.    So if he reholdered the 7.5 after the August date it would still show August.   

I know this because I just reholdered a FF5 in a 2nd Gen holder - it shows up in CGC census photos with new holder but original 2011 grade date.  

But reholders retain the same certification number.  So I remain confused over this situation.

[Superman2006]

Great detective work by comicwiz and others...

[Superman2006]

On 12/22/2023 at 2:49 PM, namisgr said:

On 12/22/2023 at 2:41 PM, DC# said:

Reholders do not get a new date - they maintain the original grade date.    So if he reholdered the 7.5 after the August date it would still show August.   

I know this because I just reholdered a FF5 in a 2nd Gen holder - it shows up in CGC census photos with new holder but original 2011 grade date.  

But reholders retain the same certification number.  So I remain confused over this situation.

Scammer could have purchased the blue and green label from different sellers that just happened to have been graded on the same day. Scammer could then take the book from the green slab, insert in blue slab, send it back for a reholder and maintain the same blue label info (except now it has the qualified book inside the slab).

[DC#]

On 12/22/2023 at 11:44 AM, comicwiz said:

But doesn't this condition require the s/n to remain the same?

If this was a swap like the other books - we would still need to find the original 7.5 Blue before it was replaced by the 7.0 Green.  Or again....maybe I have missed something in the thread  

 

[namisgr]

On 12/22/2023 at 2:47 PM, sledgehammer said:

Someone already suggested an inner well that has the label sealed inside of it, yesterday. they need to figure this out.

Then when switching a reholder order over to one of their new custom labels, they'd have to open the inner well to recover the comic, then seal it in a new inner well along with the new custom label.

Hulk head hurt.

Edited December 22, 2023 by namisgr

[VintageComics]

On 12/22/2023 at 12:13 PM, comicwiz said:

On 12/22/2023 at 11:34 AM, VintageComics said:

In your world does some = all?

I was neither talking about you NOR to you. 

This thread is starting to look like a mob so I'll let it breath. 

Look man, you don't need to respond to any of this back and forth either.

You took the word 'some' and equated it with 'all'.

You completely mischaracterized what I said and then went off.

You want to streamline the discussion? Stop doing that and everything will be fine. 

May I suggest reading up on what a false equivalence is?

Edited December 22, 2023 by VintageComics

[Superman2006]

On 12/22/2023 at 2:53 PM, namisgr said:

On 12/22/2023 at 2:47 PM, sledgehammer said:

Someone already suggested an inner well that has the label sealed inside of it, yesterday. they need to figure this out.

Then when switching a resub over to one of their new custom labels, they'd have to open the inner well to recover the comic, then seal it in a new inner well along with the new custom label.

Hulk head hurt.

Yes, but at least it would add another level of security. Of course, no matter what CGC does scammers can try to find a way to get around it (I don't like to explain possible ways, lest the scammers get any ideas). If they put all that work into an honest days work, they'd still make money and not have to look over their shoulder for when it all falls apart : (

[sledgehammer]

On 12/22/2023 at 1:53 PM, namisgr said:

On 12/22/2023 at 1:47 PM, sledgehammer said:

Someone already suggested an inner well that has the label sealed inside of it, yesterday. they need to figure this out.

Then when switching a resub over to one of their new custom labels, they'd have to open the inner well to recover the comic, then seal it in a new inner well along with the new custom label.

Yep. Do you know how long the current inner well style has been employed?

[Comics]

On 12/22/2023 at 10:58 AM, comicwiz said:

In addition to the crease on the top left corner, and vertical colour break along the forearm, look at the wrap - that white line starting from the top, and fading to around where the Wendigo is, it's the exact same book.

Sadly this is a mic drop. Though for some reason I kind of feel better about this possibly being an inside job? Not like we haven't seen something like that before... ;-)