ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[MAR1979]

On 12/29/2023 at 12:49 PM, shadroch said:

I'd buy a CGC book from Storms because I know he would have examined the slabs and wouldn't offer anything he had questions about, and I know he'd stand by the sale.  There aren't many others I deal with who I can say about with 100% confidence, which is why CGC captured market share.  I saw a few books in some upcoming auctions, but I think I'll sit out for a while. 

Unless he submitted the books, how would he know the MVS remains intact inside a Hulk 181? The answer is he does not.

Edited December 29, 2023 by MAR1979

[MAR1979]

On 12/29/2023 at 1:54 PM, Point Five said:

Right, that's the problem with reholdering becoming a fee-based service. The reholdering/ME has always been handled as painlessly as possible, because there is usually a disappointed/annoyed/angry customer on the other end.

 

Simple solution for CGC is to stop messing up so, so, so  very much.   There seriously need to implement Six Sigma like disciplines. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by MAR1979

[Timmay]

On 12/19/2023 at 7:21 AM, sledgehammer said:

Must have been some "newsstand" find.

One submission on 8/4/23

4301294001  ASM 194   9.8  White

4301294002  ASM 194   9.8  White

4301294003  XMEN 266  9.8  MJ  White

4301294004  XMEN 266  9.8  White

4301294005  XMEN 266  9.8  White

4301294006  XMEN 266  9.6  MJ  OW/W

Submission date changes to 10/2/23

4301294007  XMEN 266  9.8  MJ  White

 

This book, the seller sold, was definitely a reholder??  https://www.ebay.com/itm/285582554580?hash=item427e0bf5d4:g:-oYAAOSwvsplVD1S

#  2120143023    XMEN 266   9.8 white   10/30/23

Here are the 2 submissions next to it.

2120143022  DC UNIVERSE  grade reject  5/12/20

2120143024  BATMAN 567  9.8  5/12/20

 

Did he put a lower grade copy in the xmen 9.8 holder?

 

 

This was a 9.2 MJ

[Vince G]

On 12/29/2023 at 12:32 PM, grendel013 said:

Was wondering this myself as I submitted two books earlier this year for reholder and was warned about the possibility of a grade drop. Both books were 9.8 White pages but were in the Gen 1 holders and I wanted to upgrade. They both came back 9.8 white so who knows if they were really regraded. Honest opinion is that both books deserve the 9.8. I am pretty sure CGC had to change the inner wells though because I believe I read that the Gen 1 inner well would not work with the new outer well. Sorry this doesn't answer the question but I think we can infer that CGC is not always concerned with regrading when the reholders get backlogged.

I can see setting this as a best practice would certainly eliminate the problem.

[Timmay]

And you can add elysium142 as another one of the ebay account associated with this mess.

[Matt1982]

I’m not in favor of automatically re-grading re-holders. They’d have to crack every book from the inner well, which subjects books to damage from the process. It’s also not smart for CGC because people won’t buy re-holders to get custom labels if you have to totally re-grade it.

Seems much better to design a better process/holder.

[sledgehammer]

On 12/29/2023 at 1:32 PM, Timmay said:

And you can add elysium142 as another one of the ebay account associated with this mess.

Nice job on the 9.2.

You're sure this one is different than CORNER142 somebody already noted?

How did you determine this?

[Vince G]

On 12/29/2023 at 2:34 PM, Matt1982 said:

I’m not in favor of automatically re-grading re-holders. They’d have to crack every book from the inner well, which subjects books to damage from the process. It’s also not smart for CGC because people won’t buy re-holders to get custom labels if you have to totally re-grade it.

Seems much better to design a better process/holder.

So basically, CGC took the submitter's word for it that the book was in fact a Mark Jewelers'.  That seems like a very bad business practice if you ask me, particularly because it would have implied that the submitter had to crack the book to verify the insert.  It should have raised at least one red flag at CGC, I would have thought.  Then again, it's a volume business, right?  Just move 'em out.

[Timmay]

On 12/29/2023 at 2:35 PM, sledgehammer said:

Nice job on the 9.2.

You're sure this one is different than CORNER142 somebody already noted?

How did you determine this?

I sold him multiple books including this 9.2 X-Men 266 MJ

[Matt1982]

Investigations like the one CGC has announced is what I do for a living. While I have absolutely no insider knowledge, I can tell you with a high degree of certainty what’s happening now and what has been happening at CGC for the last week or so.

They have used their records to identify every current and former employee involved in grading the ASM 252. They’ve interviewed those employees to understand what happened as the books were graded. They’ve also reviewed their security footage as that book was graded.

They’ve also identified every other book that was submitted for grading by that same customer. First thing I’d do is see whether any employees graded numerous of those books. They know there’s a scam here and will be highly-focused on whether any employees were involved, or whether this was a loophole where the fraudster was able to scam them. My big question (I haven’t read all the posts so apologies if this has been addressed) is why the re-graded 252 kept its Cert number. Every book I’ve sent in for reholdering has come back with a new number.

They’re using their systems and records to fully determine the scope and extent of the problem, and to determine to the greatest extent possible any CGC employees who may have been involved.

whether and at what point they involve the authorities is a more tricky situation that depends on what they learn about the involvement of their own employees. Lack of involvement makes it easier to go to the authorities, though that either has already or will at some point be out of their hands - the police or FBI can always start their own investigation.

And whatever this person did is highly likely to be a federal crime. They defrauded the buyer by tampering with the graded encapsulation - that’s fraud. They then made it a federal crime by using the internet to market and sell the fraudulent books, and by shipping them via USPS. There are lots of federal crimes here.

If CGC employees were involved, then CGC is an accomplice. If they weren’t involved, then CGC is a victim. Either way, CGC is on the hot seat and will be judged by how they respond to the situation.

it will be extremely interesting to see how it unfolds.

[Matt1982]

On 12/29/2023 at 1:43 PM, Vince G said:

So basically, CGC took the submitter's word for it that the book was in fact a Mark Jewelers'.  That seems like a very bad business practice if you ask me, particularly because it would have implied that the submitter had to crack the book to verify the insert.  It should have raised at least one red flag at CGC, I would have thought.  Then again, it's a volume business, right?  Just move 'em out.

I’m not saying that. The must have removed it from the well to confirm, but they wouldn’t regrade the book unless the outer case showed obvious signs of tampering.

[ShaggyB]

On 12/29/2023 at 2:53 PM, Matt1982 said:

Investigations like the one CGC has announced is what I do for a living. While I have absolutely no insider knowledge, I can tell you with a high degree of certainty what’s happening now and what has been happening at CGC for the last week or so.

They have used their records to identify every current and former employee involved in grading the ASM 252. They’ve interviewed those employees to understand what happened as the books were graded. They’ve also reviewed their security footage as that book was graded.

They’ve also identified every other book that was submitted for grading by that same customer. First thing I’d do is see whether any employees graded numerous of those books. They know there’s a scam here and will be highly-focused on whether any employees were involved, or whether this was a loophole where the fraudster was able to scam them. My big question (I haven’t read all the posts so apologies if this has been addressed) is why the re-graded 252 kept its Cert number. Every book I’ve sent in for reholdering has come back with a new number.

They’re using their systems and records to fully determine the scope and extent of the problem, and to determine to the greatest extent possible any CGC employees who may have been involved.

whether and at what point they involve the authorities is a more tricky situation that depends on what they learn about the involvement of their own employees. Lack of involvement makes it easier to go to the authorities, though that either has already or will at some point be out of their hands - the police or FBI can always start their own investigation.

And whatever this person did is highly likely to be a federal crime. They defrauded the buyer by tampering with the graded encapsulation - that’s fraud. They then made it a federal crime by using the internet to market and sell the fraudulent books, and by shipping them via USPS. There are lots of federal crimes here.

If CGC employees were involved, then CGC is an accomplice. If they weren’t involved, then CGC is a victim. Either way, CGC is on the hot seat and will be judged by how they respond to the situation.

it will be extremely interesting to see how it unfolds.

Regrade gets new number, reholder gets same number.

Same with ME, same cert number.

[Vince G]

On 12/29/2023 at 2:54 PM, Matt1982 said:

I’m not saying that. The must have removed it from the well to confirm, but they wouldn’t regrade the book unless the outer case showed obvious signs of tampering.

That makes sense.  it would be great if someone from CGC could document the process they use for verification for these types of situations.  This would eliminate some of the guesswork and speculation. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Vince G

[Lightning55]

On 12/29/2023 at 2:43 PM, Vince G said:

So basically, CGC took the submitter's word for it that the book was in fact a Mark Jewelers'.  That seems like a very bad business practice if you ask me, particularly because it would have implied that the submitter had to crack the book to verify the insert.  It should have raised at least one red flag at CGC, I would have thought.  Then again, it's a volume business, right?  Just move 'em out.

No one knows for sure on MJ reholder. You can see the insert from 3 edges, so it has been speculated that CGC may have not opened the inner well, but equally they may have. 

This was discussed in detail 100-150 pages ago, the parts you didn't read.

[sledgehammer]

On 12/29/2023 at 1:45 PM, Timmay said:

I sold him multiple books including this 9.2 X-Men 266 MJ

Was it on the 4/8/22 date shown in GPA for that 9.2 cert #?

Do you have any info on the buyer that fits in with what we've seen here so far?

[Vince G]

On 12/29/2023 at 3:05 PM, Lightning55 said:

No one knows for sure on MJ reholder. You can see the insert from 3 edges, so it has been speculated that CGC may have not opened the inner well, but equally they may have. 

This was discussed in detail 100-150 pages ago, the parts you didn't read.

Ah, my bad. Yes, I arrived late to the party (I think page 194 late)

[William-James88]

On 12/29/2023 at 10:18 AM, kanti said:

At least two different scams going (swap and sell &swap and reholder). 

Since not all scam books have been going back to CGC, i.e. simply swapped, CGC's service is rendered useless.  You will now have to look at the book within the slab and decide if you believe the grade.  The whole point of graded comics (for me anyway) was that it avoided the disagreement of the condition of the book.  Now, even you agree it's a 9.0, you don't know if the book is missing a MVS.  

Firstly, turns out that Punisher book was resent to CGC, so I was wrong on that, and it's the same scam at play. As for the part I placed in bold, I would always suggest that regardless and I have always acted on "buy the book, not the slab". That rings more true now than ever of course. It's also why I never really got into the 9.8 game and stuck more with GA issues with CGC at least letting me know if a book is restored or not (or to which extent). As for books missing a MVS or a Pin up, sadly CGC has missed those in the past too regardless of this scam. But inserts go beyond CGC certifications and to the broader idea of slabbing a book since you can never truly know the inside of a slabbed book until you remove it from its slab.

[Mikey C]

On 12/29/2023 at 2:29 PM, Timmay said:

This was a 9.2 MJ

I might be missing something but couldn’t this just be a CPR? A 9.2 to a 9.6 def isn’t unheard of. 

[sledgehammer]

On 12/29/2023 at 2:11 PM, Mikey C said:

I might be missing something but couldn’t this just be a CPR? A 9.2 to a 9.6 def isn’t unheard of. 

Yes, but if scamboy bought it directly from him, it's more evidence on who he might be.

He may also do pressing.

[Sigur Ros]

On 12/29/2023 at 1:12 PM, wombat said:

Have any of the big dealers chimed in? Don't recall seeing any comments. 

Probably busy trying to sell off their graded keys.