ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Jaydogrules]

On 12/26/2023 at 5:09 PM, Randall Dowling said:

Reading this list, I'm reminded of these threads:

 

Literally the entire hobby has dropped 50%+ in the nearly 3 years since that thread was created and yet, for some reason , that book is still living in your head rent free.  

Weird.  

-J.

[Tnexus]

Congrats thread on making it 24 hours without a post!

[grendel013]

[Lightning55]

Could it be that everyone is sticking a fork in this topic at the same time?

Or did the NFL Playoffs pull everyone away this weekend? 

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/21/2024 at 5:27 PM, Tnexus said:

Congrats thread on making it 24 hours without a post!

[drotto]

We should not let this thread go away completely.  I still want updates, and we need to keep applying pressure to change the problems.

[lostboys]

 

 

CGC did a great job...allowed our little 360 page tantrum. 

 

Seems we've worn ourselves out like toddlers...nap time.

 

Parenting 101

 

 

 

[comicwiz]

On 1/22/2024 at 8:16 AM, drotto said:

We should not let this thread go away completely.  I still want updates, and we need to keep applying pressure to change the problems.

I agree. However this is far from being over. The work I've done is now in a wait and see period, and last time I checked the list has had 35 books struck off it. 

I don't think people realize the challenges ahead, but I'm going to give a very crude example of what I mean here. In the over 20 years I've been a member, I have had about a dozen people contacting me by PM with "problem" books. Even before the Spider-Dan incident and the JIM 83 going from blue to purple to blue again because someone exploited CGC's walk thru during conventions where they would do onsite, I was getting PM's from people explaining how they tried to CPR a blue that became purple. In nearly every instance, they were getting pushback on appropriate compensation, and those that hung the "taking it to the boards" over CGC's head in such instances seemed to get the result. That's just about a dozen books over a 20+ year period.

Here we are talking about hundreds of books, if we go by CGC's list alone. 

As someone that has studied the sales patterns of many of these books, those incidents I describe above are a walk in the park. Imagine when people, who bought in the height of the pandemic (esp some of the prices we saw in 2021 representing "peak" markets) being told they are going to come away with 30-50% of what they originally paid due to the drastic downturns like we've seen 

Because of the abovementioned, this is very much a make or break moment, and while I do want to see the alleged perps prosecuted, I also recoginize the much bigger challenge ahead is customer/consumer redress.

 

Edited January 22 by comicwiz

[jas1vans]

My biggest concern with this is the number of books affected.

CGC has been the beneficiary of some great detective work done by people on these boards (and off). CGC has set the number of books affected at 350, but the ones doing the legwork have said that number is certainly higher. If CGC didn't catch the problem, and are playing catch-up to those who have, how can they confidently say how many books have been affected?

[sledgehammer]

On 1/22/2024 at 8:48 AM, jas1vans said:

If CGC didn't catch the problem, and are playing catch-up to those who have, how can they confidently say how many books have been affected?

Annnnnd, we've hit one month since the last reported sale of a non-newsstand 9.8 ASM 300 on GPA.

You think you're dying to know when this will gain further clarity?

imagine how the two ebay sellers (one consigned) with newsstand 9.8 300s with asking prices over $20K feel.

 

[agamoto]

On 1/22/2024 at 5:16 AM, drotto said:

We should not let this thread go away completely.  I still want updates, and we need to keep applying pressure to change the problems.

As the frequency of comments in this thread begins to wane and the community and CGC continue to process this incidence, I wanted to provide more concrete information below in order to clarify options available to the community in these circumstances.

If you have incurred financial loss due to purchasing comics online that were subsequently swapped out with different books, this constitutes criminal fraudulent misrepresentation, and any online transaction involving these books or shipment of them across state lines is considered felony wire fraud. CGC has requested you report such incidents to them via email at ReportFraud@CollectiblesGroup.com. However, this should not be your only course of action. It is essential, whether you purchased the item in person with cash or over the internet, to report the details to the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) at https://reportfraud.ftc.gov. The FTC is tasked with protecting consumers and addressing issues of fraud and deception in the marketplace. 

Moreover, any fraudulent transaction that occurred online should also be reported to the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s Internet Crime Complaint Center (IC3) at https://www.ic3.gov/. The IC3 is instrumental in gathering reports on internet-related criminal activities and forwarding them to the appropriate law enforcement agencies for further investigation. While CGC has expressed their intention to fairly compensate those who have suffered losses, the specifics of this compensation are still not clear. It is crucial for victims to understand that there are no individual legal remedies for recovering losses without first filing a report with the proper law enforcement authorities. CGC cannot and will not file this report for you, as they are not the direct victims of this fraud.

Technically speaking, one could argue CGC was inadvertently involved in facilitating the fraud against consumers, but it's critical to remember they are also victims of fraudulent misrepresentation here. That, however, is a civil matter between the responsible parties and CGC. Had the fraud not been discovered by CGC's customers, CGC theoretically would have profited considerably from the scheme, given the amount of fees involved in grading and re-grading such a significant number of high-grade books in addition to their reholder fees. CGC can indeed take legal action against those they determine responsible for damaging their reputation, covering costs associated with reimbursing victims, private investigations, legal fees, and process mitigation. However, what they cannot do is 'press charges' or 'prosecute' anyone who may have defrauded individual customers with a swapped book. The consumers, not CGC, are the victims of this fraud. While CGC has pledged to hold those responsible accountable 'to the fullest extent of the law,' they might wish to provide clearer communication to customers and victims about which specific 'law' they are referring to. CGC should clarify whether their legal team intends to represent all victims, including CGC, in any potential future lawsuit they may file. Additionally, CGC should make it clear to customers and victims that third parties like PayPal, eBay, Instagram, etc., cannot file a fraud report on an individual’s behalf either.

Furthermore, CGC should also inform concerned customers and victims that sending any suspect book to CGC before consulting with local/state/federal law enforcement, personal legal representation, or before filing any criminal complaints could potentially jeopardize any direct legal recourse for recovering losses from those indicted and convicted for this fraud in a criminal court.

Others in this thread have expressed skepticism about the effectiveness of such reporting. However, it is important to understand that failing to report these incidents assuredly guarantees that no action will be taken. The collective reporting of these crimes greatly assists federal agencies in identifying and tackling such fraudulent schemes. These steps not only aid in your pursuit of justice but also contribute to the broader effort to combat online fraud and protect others from similar deceptive practices. As individuals who have suffered from these fraudulent activities, it is your right and responsibility to yourself, to other victims, and to potential victims, to report these incidents.

That's my 2 cents. 

[agamoto]

Oh, and by the way, I wanted to say @WestcoastDAVEngers last night on Swagglehaus' live stream mentioned in the chat the consignment group Grailz still has Zaneglor's books up for consignment. I'm assuming he's referring to books still on the list.

Be careful out there, fellow consumers! 

[comicwiz]

There is one other factor here that coalesces with the above stated, and it involves something that has repeatedly been brought up by others in this thread.

What do we make of the current status of CGC's claim of a "tamper-proof" holder?

We have always understood, not only through CGC's marketing, but the P2P trading culture that evolved from CGC's services, that consumers would be protected from tampering due to CGC's proprietary two-part holder design.

Not only has this incident proven otherwise, but we have no information, and might never know how this tampering occurred given the methods CGC is employing to self-investigate.

Remember, it is alleged that this submitter found a way to tamper with the holder in a way which exploited a process CGC uses to consolidate their submissions, and which is used finalize their process which represents their "tamper-proof" protocol, and did not notice the tampering was happening right under their noses until it was brought to their attention by collectors.

And we must keep in mind that we are talking hundreds of books impacted over many years, not just a handful in a short period of time.

Further to the recommendations offered on the FTC by @agamoto as one one alternative that is available to consumers to seek remedies, redress and even possibly a transparency needed at this time - there is a division of the FTC that focuses on misleading advertising (i.e. Truth In Advertising), and I believe this is one other aspect to reporting which may represent a missed opportunity if we do not excercise our consumer rights to report what has happened here.

For all the reasons stated before and now, it is important we all do our part to ensure there is a federal oversight involved that protects us all in the myriad ways this incident has both impacted collectors in the wider community, and may continue to expose the vulernability as identified thus far in this holder tampering incident.

Edited February 15 by comicwiz

[Sweet Lou 14]

FWIW, one aspect of this situation that isn't being discussed enough is CGC's holder review process.

When the big list was published, I quickly discovered that I owned one of the most valuable books on the list, having won it at auction on ComicLink.  I was assured by Josh that my book was "fine" because of photographic evidence (apparently, this book has sold on ComicLink a couple of times and Josh feels it's clearly been the same book in the two images, one of which predates the scammer's possession of the book).  But I was also strongly encouraged to send the book in, which I did immediately.

CGC has had my book since January 9, nearly two weeks ago.  It's still in the dreaded "Scheduled for Grading" status.  Last week, I called customer service for an update -- if this is such an urgent matter for CGC (and it certainly is for me!) then why hadn't they completed their review yet?  I was told I needed to email the fraud group because regular customer service was not handling these cases.  OK, I went ahead and did that.  And the answers I got were completely unsatisfactory -- just the usual about how this is very important but I need to be patient, and no word whatsoever on an ETA.

I hesitated to comment because I am not one to air out grievances on the boards.  But the communication from CGC is so poor that this is the only way I'm likely to find out if others are having the same experience.  I don't think in a situation like this that I should have to wait more than 24 hours, 48 tops, to get an answer to the simple question of whether my book has been tampered with.  I've been in limbo for two weeks and that is simply not acceptable.

[jas1vans]

On 1/22/2024 at 10:01 AM, sledgehammer said:

imagine how the two ebay sellers (one consigned) with newsstand 9.8 300s with asking prices over $20K feel.

I hadn't even thought of that. I have only been thinking of the build-up to this, not the current ramifications and aftermath.

My imagining has been: What books were used as practice? What books were used as 'they've got to catch this one' and made it through? How many people were involved? How many accounts do they have that board detectives and/or CGC haven't found?

People getting something other than what is "guaranteed" just sits wrong with me whether it's a $20k book or a $20 book. CGC is a victim too, but until I have a better understanding of this whole mess I'm not going to shake the feeling they were only a victim because they asleep at the wheel.

[CGC Mike]

On 1/22/2024 at 1:32 PM, Sweet Lou 14 said:

FWIW, one aspect of this situation that isn't being discussed enough is CGC's holder review process.

When the big list was published, I quickly discovered that I owned one of the most valuable books on the list, having won it at auction on ComicLink.  I was assured by Josh that my book was "fine" because of photographic evidence (apparently, this book has sold on ComicLink a couple of times and Josh feels it's clearly been the same book in the two images, one of which predates the scammer's possession of the book).  But I was also strongly encouraged to send the book in, which I did immediately.

CGC has had my book since January 9, nearly two weeks ago.  It's still in the dreaded "Scheduled for Grading" status.  Last week, I called customer service for an update -- if this is such an urgent matter for CGC (and it certainly is for me!) then why hadn't they completed their review yet?  I was told I needed to email the fraud group because regular customer service was not handling these cases.  OK, I went ahead and did that.  And the answers I got were completely unsatisfactory -- just the usual about how this is very important but I need to be patient, and no word whatsoever on an ETA.

I hesitated to comment because I am not one to air out grievances on the boards.  But the communication from CGC is so poor that this is the only way I'm likely to find out if others are having the same experience.  I don't think in a situation like this that I should have to wait more than 24 hours, 48 tops, to get an answer to the simple question of whether my book has been tampered with.  I've been in limbo for two weeks and that is simply not acceptable.

Hi

I am going to check on this right now for you.

Mike

[wiparker824]

On 1/22/2024 at 11:32 AM, Sweet Lou 14 said:

FWIW, one aspect of this situation that isn't being discussed enough is CGC's holder review process.

When the big list was published, I quickly discovered that I owned one of the most valuable books on the list, having won it at auction on ComicLink.  I was assured by Josh that my book was "fine" because of photographic evidence (apparently, this book has sold on ComicLink a couple of times and Josh feels it's clearly been the same book in the two images, one of which predates the scammer's possession of the book).  But I was also strongly encouraged to send the book in, which I did immediately.

CGC has had my book since January 9, nearly two weeks ago.  It's still in the dreaded "Scheduled for Grading" status.  Last week, I called customer service for an update -- if this is such an urgent matter for CGC (and it certainly is for me!) then why hadn't they completed their review yet?  I was told I needed to email the fraud group because regular customer service was not handling these cases.  OK, I went ahead and did that.  And the answers I got were completely unsatisfactory -- just the usual about how this is very important but I need to be patient, and no word whatsoever on an ETA.

I hesitated to comment because I am not one to air out grievances on the boards.  But the communication from CGC is so poor that this is the only way I'm likely to find out if others are having the same experience.  I don't think in a situation like this that I should have to wait more than 24 hours, 48 tops, to get an answer to the simple question of whether my book has been tampered with.  I've been in limbo for two weeks and that is simply not acceptable.

Of course you don’t have to share anything further once you find out but it would be very interesting if you find out a book CL “cleared” actually isn’t legit and CGC has to pay you out. I hope that’s not the case, and you get your book back ASAP, but it would be very interesting if that’s what’s holding things up. 

[toro]

The competitors put out an email today that basically said our cases are better than the other guys. 

[sd2416]

On 1/22/2024 at 1:19 PM, toro said:

The competitors put out an email today that basically said our cases are better than the other guys. 

Yeah they did.  

[comicwiz]

On 1/22/2024 at 1:32 PM, Sweet Lou 14 said:

FWIW, one aspect of this situation that isn't being discussed enough is CGC's holder review process.

When the big list was published, I quickly discovered that I owned one of the most valuable books on the list, having won it at auction on ComicLink.  I was assured by Josh that my book was "fine" because of photographic evidence (apparently, this book has sold on ComicLink a couple of times and Josh feels it's clearly been the same book in the two images, one of which predates the scammer's possession of the book).  But I was also strongly encouraged to send the book in, which I did immediately.

CGC has had my book since January 9, nearly two weeks ago.  It's still in the dreaded "Scheduled for Grading" status.  Last week, I called customer service for an update -- if this is such an urgent matter for CGC (and it certainly is for me!) then why hadn't they completed their review yet?  I was told I needed to email the fraud group because regular customer service was not handling these cases.  OK, I went ahead and did that.  And the answers I got were completely unsatisfactory -- just the usual about how this is very important but I need to be patient, and no word whatsoever on an ETA.

I hesitated to comment because I am not one to air out grievances on the boards.  But the communication from CGC is so poor that this is the only way I'm likely to find out if others are having the same experience.  I don't think in a situation like this that I should have to wait more than 24 hours, 48 tops, to get an answer to the simple question of whether my book has been tampered with.  I've been in limbo for two weeks and that is simply not acceptable.

If yours is a SS book, then all I can say is that the methods used to discern a swap are very different from what I believe happened with certain SS books, which may be why they are on the impacted list. I have not had a chance to review more than a handful, but suffice it to say that it was wise of you to not go by the dealers assertions alone. It is rather unfortunate to hear how your situation has since been handled. Please feel free to keep us updated.