Is anyone else getting books back with warped inner wells? 25 25

[Yorick]

On 8/22/2024 at 1:11 PM, Iconic1s said:

 I have bought my last CGC graded book (finally).

Did you get it??  Finally? 

[MadGenius]

On 8/24/2024 at 2:58 PM, Stefan_W said:

FedEx just delivered my 8 book high value submission that came back from CGC and every inner well is straight as an arrow. 

Up until now I figured that the bend was from cooling after the case was sealed up, but I no longer think this is the story (at least not the whole story). The high value submission cases are sealed up just like the moderns without anything bad happening. There is a difference since these are older books that are slightly wider so they may use a different stock of plastic for them. Anyway, I am no longer thinking this is process-related. 

I have a submission of moderns in grading and another one where the box should be opened Mon or Tues so I can share whether the bending is continuing. There is a mix of crack and resubs from slabs that started with 44 sprinkled in both of those submission so I can also share whether I was able to get the normal amount of grade bumps. 

I had a high value modern submission come back in March of this year without any issues, so I don't think it's necessarily the age of the book that is a factor. There has been speculation that the service tier matters, and if high value submissions are unaffected then this theory has some credence. It's possible that the process isn't to blame but rather WHO they have encapsulating the books that is the issue. Perhaps the novice employees are on the modern submissions and their technique is to blame? This doesn't really explain the ME reholders that came back looking the same since you would think CGC would put their "best" encapsulators on those to please their disgruntled customers, however it's not too much of a stretch to believe CGC just doesn't give a flip about its customers given the lack of response to this very real concern.

[Stefan_W]

On 8/24/2024 at 4:19 PM, MadGenius said:

I had a high value modern submission come back in March of this year without any issues, so I don't think it's necessarily the age of the book that is a factor. There has been speculation that the service tier matters, and if high value submissions are unaffected then this theory has some credence. It's possible that the process isn't to blame but rather WHO they have encapsulating the books that is the issue. Perhaps the novice employees are on the modern submissions and their technique is to blame? This doesn't really explain the ME reholders that came back looking the same since you would think CGC would put their "best" encapsulators on those to please their disgruntled customers, however it's not too much of a stretch to believe CGC just doesn't give a flip about its customers given the lack of response to this very real concern.

I default to the position that if it was a who that person would have been fired months ago and things would have carried on. I am now thinking more along the lines of bad quality product that they are using up in the lowest value submissions, but who knows since we cant see behind the curtain. 

[Iconic1s]

On 8/24/2024 at 2:43 PM, Yorick said:

Did you get it??  Finally? 

No Sir, I just give up.  Plus, at this point my opinion of the process is so low it doesn’t make sense to put in any more time chasing that book in 9.8… odds would be good it’s either a bogus grade (where I would have just bought the label) or there would be something crazy wrong with the slab or inner well.  Going to put my energy into other stuff for awhile…

[MAY1979]

On 8/24/2024 at 4:31 PM, Iconic1s said:

No Sir, I just give up.  Plus, at this point my opinion of the process is so low it doesn’t make sense to put in any more time chasing that book in 9.8… odds would be good it’s either a bogus grade (where I would have just bought the label) or there would be something crazy wrong with the slab or inner well.  Going to put my energy into other stuff for awhile…

Is it fair to say beyond damaging Comics, that CGC has crushed your dream?

 

On 8/24/2024 at 4:31 PM, Stefan_W said:

I default to the position that if it was a who that person would have been fired months ago and things would have carried on. I am now thinking more along the lines of bad quality product that they are using up in the lowest value submissions, but who knows since we cant see behind the curtain. 

A powerful statement.

What you have opined is tantamount at minimum to malice and willful (or reckless or wanton) negligence from CGC. The question to that is; who benefits? Certainly not the Product nor Customers, but most assuredly the division's short-term bottom line!

Edited August 24 by MAY1979

[MadGenius]

On 8/24/2024 at 4:31 PM, Stefan_W said:

I default to the position that if it was a who that person would have been fired months ago and things would have carried on. I am now thinking more along the lines of bad quality product that they are using up in the lowest value submissions, but who knows since we cant see behind the curtain. 

This would be the worst case scenario for CGC. If they are knowingly using a defective product that is actively damaging, or has the potential to damage, comics people are sending in for grading that is MUCH worse than human error and probably grounds for a class action lawsuit.

[Iconic1s]

On 8/24/2024 at 3:37 PM, MAY1979 said:

Is it fair to say beyond damaging Comics, that CGC has crushed your dream?

Pretty much 

Definitely somehow made me do a 180 compared to how I felt about them just a few short years ago.

Edited August 24 by Iconic1s

[Stefan_W]

On 8/24/2024 at 4:38 PM, MadGenius said:

This would be the worst case scenario for CGC. If they are knowingly using a defective product that is actively damaging, or has the potential to damage, comics people are sending in for grading that is MUCH worse than human error and probably grounds for a class action lawsuit.

The options are person, product, or process. Person makes zero sense because that person would have either been canned or else trained better month ago. Process is starting to lose steam since only one tier seems to be getting hit with this stuff. 

I dont know anything about the legal side aside from that CGC has claimed all along that the bend is within their allowed tolerance. Not sure what the terms of use says about all of this but I am pretty sure legal consultation is a part of CGC's larger process. 

[Axelrod]

On 8/24/2024 at 4:31 PM, Stefan_W said:

I default to the position that if it was a who that person would have been fired months ago and things would have carried on. I am now thinking more along the lines of bad quality product that they are using up in the lowest value submissions, but who knows since we cant see behind the curtain. 

I mean, cgcMike replied to one of the earliest posts in this thread saying that there were "warped" inner wells.  But he also said they were identified and pulled.

Quote

@LordRahl  CGC identified a batch of inner wells that were warped and removed from production, but it appears that these got through. Please send the affected books back via Mechanical Error and they’ll be taken care of.

So, conspiracy theories? 

[MadGenius]

On 8/24/2024 at 4:51 PM, Stefan_W said:

The options are person, product, or process. Person makes zero sense because that person would have either been canned or else trained better month ago. Process is starting to lose steam since only one tier seems to be getting hit with this stuff. 

I dont know anything about the legal side aside from that CGC has claimed all along that the bend is within their allowed tolerance. Not sure what the terms of use says about all of this but I am pretty sure legal consultation is a part of CGC's larger process. 

Given recent events, maybe CGC shouldn't put so much faith in their legal counsel.

[Berkfam54]

On 8/24/2024 at 4:11 PM, Axelrod said:

I mean, cgcMike replied to one of the earliest posts in this thread saying that there were "warped" inner wells.  But he also said they were identified and pulled.

So, conspiracy theories? 

What about the ones I received just this past week? 

[Still Only 20¢]

On 8/20/2024 at 11:32 AM, Still Only 20¢ said:

I just dropped off an ME at my local FedEx.  This is the 15TH TIME I'm resubmitting this book as an ME, (almost?) all for scuffs in the slab.  @gadzukes indeed!

On 8/24/2024 at 4:19 PM, MadGenius said:

 

... Perhaps the novice employees are on the modern submissions and their technique is to blame? This doesn't really explain the ME reholders that came back looking the same since you would think CGC would put their "best" encapsulators on those to please their disgruntled customers, however it's not too much of a stretch to believe CGC just doesn't give a flip about its customers given the lack of response to this very real concern.

@MadGenius, from my experiences submitting MEs, I believe your premises that CGC puts their "best" encapsulators on MEs and that CGC is concerned about disgruntling customers are both totally unfounded.  Kind regards,

[MadGenius]

On 8/24/2024 at 7:06 PM, Still Only 20¢ said:

@MadGenius, from my experiences submitting MEs, I believe your premises that CGC puts their "best" encapsulators on MEs and that CGC is concerned about disgruntling customers are both totally unfounded.  Kind regards,

I did not say that at all. Just the opposite - they obviously don't care since the MEs I've submitted for the warped inner well came back looking exactly the same.

[Stuk]

On 8/24/2024 at 2:20 PM, kcm54 said:

From what I see here and in my own submissions this does not seem to be a process problem.  It's not everyone and seems to come in batches, which says it's not systemic. 

Instead it's a personnel problem and maybe a management problem.  CGC's business has grown rapidly at a time where every labor-intensive business has had staffing problems.  Either they are trying to do more with fewer people or they are hiring the wrong people.  Or maybe management isn't what it should be.

Yes, I've been saying the same. I wrote earlier (a few times) that it may, may, be human error, some person who runs the machine who is not doing it right so most of the books slabbed when that person is working and not paying attention or doing it right are coming out poorly encased, while others are not. Might explain why there is no clear pattern. 

[Stuk]

On 8/24/2024 at 4:51 PM, Stefan_W said:

The options are person, product, or process. Person makes zero sense because that person would have either been canned or else trained better month ago. 

LOL. I just posted my person theory again, and then saw your post and yeah, you may be right. Except, maybe, maybe, it is multiple people, not one person, multiple people who are trained poorly and are haphazardly doing this? The tedium. Ever work on an assembly line or in a factor? "I worked there for a week once. I luckily got the boot." Of course, I agree that if CGC is aware of the problem -- whether person, process or product -- then why are books still coming back bowed? Either they (i) don't know the source of the problem, (ii) can't figure out how to fix it (this would be very bad, to keep taking money and providing broken results) or (iii) don't care to fix it for any reason (so short sighted and harmful to them, that I find this hard to believe).  

[electricprune]

On 8/24/2024 at 5:11 PM, Axelrod said:

 

So, conspiracy theories? 

“CGC identified a batch of inner wells that were warped and removed from production, but it appears that these got through. Please send the affected books back via Mechanical Error and they’ll be taken care of.”

I don’t know if we can jump into conspiracy theories yet. However, what we know and can likely deduce is not good.

* Lord Rahl, seemingly out of the blue at the time, asked about bent or warped inner wells.

* CGC’s response on the boards was that they knew they had some warped wells. It appeared to them that some got through. He was told to send some of his slabs back.

* So, if some “got through” I think we can assume that they weren’t supposed to be used because they did not meet CGC’s standards.

* Now, several months later, submitters are still seeing pretty much the exact same issues that Lord Rahl had. Now, most or all of these cannot be sent back as MEs.

At best, this is a bad look for CGC.

At worst, we can start to get into conspiracy theories. I haven’t yet seen that evidence, but I don’t think we are very far away from it.

[wiparker824]

On 8/24/2024 at 4:56 PM, Stuk said:

LOL. I just posted my person theory again, and then saw your post and yeah, you may be right. Except, maybe, maybe, it is multiple people, not one person, multiple people who are trained poorly and are haphazardly doing this? The tedium. Ever work on an assembly line or in a factor? "I worked there for a week once. I luckily got the boot." Of course, I agree that if CGC is aware of the problem -- whether person, process or product -- then why are books still coming back bowed? Either they (i) don't know the source of the problem, (ii) can't figure out how to fix it (this would be very bad, to keep taking money and providing broken results) or (iii) don't care to fix it for any reason (so short sighted and harmful to them, that I find this hard to believe).  

We can’t pretend that option i or ii are really possible. They operated for decades as a company prior to 2024 without having this problem at all. If they really wanted to solve this the answer seems simple, go back to all of their previous materials, machinery, process, etc they used before this problem came to be and its solved. They don’t want to do that I’m guessing because they’ve made changes to those very things as a response to the reholder scam. They are instead taking the approach it seems of trying to fix the car while they’re driving it which always leads to a delayed chaotic solution.

 

[SpineTic]

 

[DC#]

On 8/25/2024 at 12:00 PM, SpineTic said:

 

IT should be noted that this video contains a new statement from CGC on the matter

 

 

[MAY1979]

^ Translation; they see no books with an issue, as banana concaving is the new "normal".

These Aren't the Droids Your Looking For

 

Edited August 25 by MAY1979