The Official "Hey, these scores need fixing" thread (Revised)

[cheetah]

Gemma, greetings. A while back I started a thread to get the Registry points of the Pre-Hero Marvel titles a boost.

Link...

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=5792851&fpart=1

 

You gave them a boost but, IMO, not nearly enough. Example from a sales thread today with almost immediate sellout ....

TTA 1 in CGC 3.0 Sold for 600.00 Registry points 210 .

TTA 9 in CGC 6.0 Sold for 325.00 Registry Points 104

TTA 10 in CGC 6.5 SOld for 300.00 Registry points 118

TTA 11 in CGC 6.5 Sold for 300.00 Registry points 95

 

I believe an across the board, double to triple point increase on the following are in order:

Tales to Astonish 1 - 26

Tales of Suspense 1 - 38

Strange Tales 1 - 100

Journey Into Mystery 1 - 82

Amazing Adventures 1 - 14

 

Thanks for considering.

 

The registry gives low points for all mid and low grades. Points seldom match the price. I think tripling the points for 3.0 would result in a ten-fold increase for a 9.8. I think the pre-hero Marvels have been bumped three times in the last few years. I'm not saying they don't warrant more points, just that they've already seen a lot of increases and doubling or tripling them value you them in excess of other similarly valued titles.

[Gemma]

Correct, there is a standard formula for the scoring, so if the score is increased for the lower grades it will affect the higher grades exponentially. I'm taking notes of all of this but will hold off to make the changes for a bit to make sure there is a general consensus.

Also, I am finishing my transition from the registry in the next few weeks so Nicole will be handling any future requests (other than the one being discussed now) and there may be a delay before additional requests can be addressed due to the transition. Just a heads up!

[Bomber-Bob]

Correct, there is a standard formula for the scoring, so if the score is increased for the lower grades it will affect the higher grades exponentially. I'm taking notes of all of this but will hold off to make the changes for a bit to make sure there is a general consensus.

 

Gemma, I have the highest respect for Cheetah but he is a Golden Age Collector that feels the registry is working against him. This is not the first time he has come out against honoring individual registry requests. To be honest, as a Silver Age collector, I feel the registry is working against me and I feel angst when I see all these modern age requests for bumps. How can I demonstrate a consensus to you on the Pre-Hero Marvels ? I don't know what else to do. Please advise.

[Rosland]

Gemma,

 

What information do we need to provide to you? More data points, over a longer time frame? How can we help?

 

The information provided so far shows that all grades are underscored, so I'm not sure how the previous argument applies.

 

Thank You

 

[cheetah]

Correct, there is a standard formula for the scoring, so if the score is increased for the lower grades it will affect the higher grades exponentially. I'm taking notes of all of this but will hold off to make the changes for a bit to make sure there is a general consensus.

 

Gemma, I have the highest respect for Cheetah but he is a Golden Age Collector that feels the registry is working against him. This is not the first time he has come out against honoring individual registry requests. To be honest, as a Silver Age collector, I feel the registry is working against me and I feel angst when I see all these modern age requests for bumps. How can I demonstrate a consensus to you on the Pre-Hero Marvels ? I don't know what else to do. Please advise.

 

I don't think my point is so much about defending Golden Age books as it is in keeping some degree of equality between titles of equal collectibility. There are some titles that have a small but vocal following that request a lot of point increases while there are other titles that have similar numbers of fans but who never even post on the board. When a title like Amazing Spider-man gets a 15-25% grade increase every year, it soon starts to overwhelm titles like X-men and FF even though those books may be of similar collectibility.

 

For the pre-hero marvels, I was clear that I wasn't saying they didn't warrant a increase, just that a 300% increase to books graded a 3.0-6.0 was going to result in a Value for a 9.4 or 9.6 to be significantly out of line with other similar titles. Would a 9.6 issue of Tales of Suspense 7 really be worth 14,000 points? That would make it more valuable point wise than ASM 7. I don't think the 358 people with ASM 1-100 sets would agree that TOS 7 is more collectible than ASM 7.

 

Regardless, it is CGC's call and I just voice my opinion on maintaining equity in the point values.

[Bomber-Bob]

Correct, there is a standard formula for the scoring, so if the score is increased for the lower grades it will affect the higher grades exponentially. I'm taking notes of all of this but will hold off to make the changes for a bit to make sure there is a general consensus.

 

Gemma, I have the highest respect for Cheetah but he is a Golden Age Collector that feels the registry is working against him. This is not the first time he has come out against honoring individual registry requests. To be honest, as a Silver Age collector, I feel the registry is working against me and I feel angst when I see all these modern age requests for bumps. How can I demonstrate a consensus to you on the Pre-Hero Marvels ? I don't know what else to do. Please advise.

 

I don't think my point is so much about defending Golden Age books as it is in keeping some degree of equality between titles of equal collectibility. There are some titles that have a small but vocal following that request a lot of point increases while there are other titles that have similar numbers of fans but who never even post on the board. When a title like Amazing Spider-man gets a 15-25% grade increase every year, it soon starts to overwhelm titles like X-men and FF even though those books may be of similar collectibility.

 

For the pre-hero marvels, I was clear that I wasn't saying they didn't warrant a increase, just that a 300% increase to books graded a 3.0-6.0 was going to result in a Value for a 9.4 or 9.6 to be significantly out of line with other similar titles. Would a 9.6 issue of Tales of Suspense 7 really be worth 14,000 points? That would make it more valuable point wise than ASM 7. I don't think the 358 people with ASM 1-100 sets would agree that TOS 7 is more collectible than ASM 7.

 

Regardless, it is CGC's call and I just voice my opinion on maintaining equity in the point values.

 

Cheetah, while I don't disagree with you, I see Gemma honor other requests without question, why single out the Pre-Hero Marvel to make a stand ? According to a previous post she just bumped up Spawn,no problem, but Pre-Hero Marvel needs a consensus ? You are the registry leader and have nearly 3 million registrypoints. I'm a small fish simply asking for a bump on a genre that I consistently pay 300+ dollars and get 70 points. Sorry but I just don't understand why this is a problem.

[Gemma]

I don't have a problem with the request, I was just letting everyone know that what cheetah mentioned will be the case as I can't just bump the "lower" grades without the higher grades being affected and wanted to mention that due to my workload this may take a few weeks to implement.

[Gotham Kid]

Any insights as to why John ( Tempus Fugitivus ) abandoned his #1 registry ranked spot altogether ?

[Bronty]

Correct, there is a standard formula for the scoring, so if the score is increased for the lower grades it will affect the higher grades exponentially. I'm taking notes of all of this but will hold off to make the changes for a bit to make sure there is a general consensus.

 

Gemma, I have the highest respect for Cheetah but he is a Golden Age Collector that feels the registry is working against him. This is not the first time he has come out against honoring individual registry requests. To be honest, as a Silver Age collector, I feel the registry is working against me and I feel angst when I see all these modern age requests for bumps. How can I demonstrate a consensus to you on the Pre-Hero Marvels ? I don't know what else to do. Please advise.

 

I don't think my point is so much about defending Golden Age books as it is in keeping some degree of equality between titles of equal collectibility. There are some titles that have a small but vocal following that request a lot of point increases while there are other titles that have similar numbers of fans but who never even post on the board. When a title like Amazing Spider-man gets a 15-25% grade increase every year, it soon starts to overwhelm titles like X-men and FF even though those books may be of similar collectibility.

 

For the pre-hero marvels, I was clear that I wasn't saying they didn't warrant a increase, just that a 300% increase to books graded a 3.0-6.0 was going to result in a Value for a 9.4 or 9.6 to be significantly out of line with other similar titles. Would a 9.6 issue of Tales of Suspense 7 really be worth 14,000 points? That would make it more valuable point wise than ASM 7. I don't think the 358 people with ASM 1-100 sets would agree that TOS 7 is more collectible than ASM 7.

 

Regardless, it is CGC's call and I just voice my opinion on maintaining equity in the point values.

 

Well Cheetah, you asked what the point is if the registry is just going to reflect GPA? Well this is the point. You say "equal collectibility" and I say that's entirely subjective. We've got a whole marketplace full of objective data and we are pulling numbers out of our posteriors? The whole thing is incredibly silly and while it might be nice to grant higher points for titles that are "tougher" to get at the end of the day price already reflects scarcity and any artificial bump will be entirely subjective and the subject of endless debate.

 

I say the sooner registry points can reflect GPA the better.

 

And if that can't be done, then prehero points should be increased

[Bronty]

I don't have a problem with the request, I was just letting everyone know that what cheetah mentioned will be the case as I can't just bump the "lower" grades without the higher grades being affected and wanted to mention that due to my workload this may take a few weeks to implement.

 

Although Cheetah's point is valid, there are so very few 9.6s of books like Tales of Suspense 7 (virtually no copies of any of those early books grade that high) that its a tremendously minor issue. I understand what he's saying, but penalizing 99.9% of the PH books because 0.1% might get overvalued seems a little backwards to say the least

 

[cheetah]

 

Just giving my opinion on registry points for similar titles, guys.

 

I think you could lump the pre-heroes in with the pre-code horror titles and give them all a look at the same time. Arguably, the pre-heroes are just the Comics Code extension of the PCH genre, anyway. The scarcity, fan base, and lack of high-grade copies is a common theme for the genre. The low point totals are also a common theme. If you look at point increases across a genre, then I think you keep things equitable for different titles and collectors.

[Bronty]

I think they are totally different genres but I have no issue with PCH getting a bump if the registry points are low on them as compared to what is being paid in the marketplace.

 

I'm certainly only arguing 'for' pre hero and not 'against' other worthy candidates

[mysterio]

For the pre-hero marvels, I was clear that I wasn't saying they didn't warrant a increase, just that a 300% increase to books graded a 3.0-6.0 was going to result in a Value for a 9.4 or 9.6 to be significantly out of line with other similar titles. Would a 9.6 issue of Tales of Suspense 7 really be worth 14,000 points? That would make it more valuable point wise than ASM 7. I don't think the 358 people with ASM 1-100 sets would agree that TOS 7 is more collectible than ASM 7.

 

This seems to be a matter of relative point disparities creating issues. This comes into play on a couple of different fronts.

 

I don't think that anyone would disagree with Cheetah that we can't have the upper HG copies getting ridiculous because of the exponential nature of the points. But I think that bumping the lower grades 25-50% would still leave the upper grades in a reasonable range. Frankly I wouldn't have a problem with a 9.6 pre-hero book being worth the same number of points as an ASM #7 in similar grade. In terms of relative scarcity having those books being equal seems reasonable to me. There are 8 copies of ASM #7 in 9.6, while the entire pre-hero run of TTA (34 issues) has only 2 total copies that reached 9.6.

 

Additionally there is the issue of points/$ that is always a problem with the registry. While the argument is often raised that points don't necessarily equate to dollars spent, there are many examples from the Bronze age in particular where we see huge disparities in the opposite direction. For example, we have two X-Men issues I picked at random.

 

X-Men #125 in CGC 9.4 sells for about $100 based on a quick eBay search. That book will get you 240 registry points, and there are 207 copies in grade with 337 copies higher.

 

X-Men #150 in CGC 9.4 apparently doesn't sell on eBay, because a 9.8 copy will only set you back about $38 based on my eBay search. But a 9.4 copy will get you 90 registry points (more than 2x the 9.8 sales price), and there are 816 copies graded 9.4 or higher.

 

If we compare any of these examples to what any pre-hero book brings in terms of relative scarcity (graded or ungraded), purchase price, or any metric you want you can see why we are disappointed by this disparity.

[KirbyJack]

I'd just like to add some general support to the Pre-Hero cause.

I see a very bright future for these titles, as those who pursue them are among the most enthusiastic, engaged collectors I know.

 

 

[cheetah]

Just looking through scores on some of the pre-code horror titles and the point distribution on TTA looks very similar to some of the EC Comics titles like Tales from the Crypt. I wonder if that is where Gemma got the current point totals for TTA and TOS.

[Bronty]

Sorry can you explain - I don't quite follow. Are you saying the tta points are the same as ec or the point formula or?

[cheetah]

The points for issue/grade are very similar.

 

Tales from the Crypt Points

 

Tales to Astonish Points

 

Just realize there are transitional books in the list where EC was changing from a crime format to a horror format so the list includes two changes in title.

[chaddesden33]

Hi Gemma

 

Could you please review points scores allocated to Thor Annual #2 (1966) when you get chance.

 

This book is very scarce in top grade (2 x 9.8, 5 x 9.6 and 12 x 9.4) which makes it far tougher than most of the Marvel Annuals in the 1965 to 1968 period and also most of the regular Thor issues in the 120's and 130's. This is reflected in GPA with only one sale in these grades in last twelve months so it feels to me like this book could comfortably manage a doubling in value.

 

The book also has a fantastic cover and story to boot with more new story pages than both the FF and Spidey Annuals from 1966.

 

Thanks for your consideration.

 

Jon

[Gotham Kid]

Any insights as to why John ( Tempus Fugitivus ) abandoned his #1 registry ranked spot altogether ?

 

[Sensei Ryan]

Any insights as to why John ( Tempus Fugitivus ) abandoned his #1 registry ranked spot altogether ?

 

 

I'd be curious to know this as well...maybe he just didn't renew his membership yet, though...just a thought.