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[Moondog]

Stephen Fishler agrees with you - at least he did in 1986 when he and I first discussed which were the most important ashcans. Flash/Thrill ashcans are very cool and certainly historically important, but because they were created by Fawcett they haven't attained the stature of the top DC ashcans (Action Comics, Action Funnies, Double Action, Superman, Wonder Woman, All Star, Superboy, Superwoman, Supergirl, and Flash). These characters and titles form the foundation for the hobby we love as well as the billions of dollars of commerce they've generated over the past 75 years.

 

Gary -- Trademark and court records suggest there was a pre-Action Superman ashcan and also that there may have been a Detective ashcan.

 

Did you ever get any whiff of those in your searches and research over the years?

 

 

When Paul Levitz gave me access to DC's vault to research their ashcans he told me that Donenfeld was very paranoid about having his upcoming titles stolen before he could publish them. Evidently this was because Donenfeld and his cronies were guilty of this back in his pulp days! So to think that he considered (and created?) an ashcan for Detective makes sense.

 

The Action ashcan has the interior to Detective 1 and the rejected cover art to Detective 2. This was well over a year before Action 1 was actually published and sold. So clearly Action Comics was something on Donenfeld's radar screen long before it saw print and his ashcan protected it. One account of the Action Comics ashcan has Donenfeld ordering Action Comics, Double Action Comics and Triple Action Comics. No Triple Action has ever surfaced either.

 

I don't think Donenfeld was involved in a pre-Action Superman ashcan as I don't believe he was aware of the character until late 1937 or early 1938. The Superman ashcans that exist today have an Action 7 cover and the interior to Action 8. So he was way late in protecting that trademark.

 

It's possible someone (an agent maybe?) aiding Siegel and Shuster in selling the character could have produced a pre-Action Superman ashcan, but I have not heard of or seen any evidence of that.

[Moondog]

Stephen Fishler agrees with you - at least he did in 1986 when he and I first discussed which were the most important ashcans. Flash/Thrill ashcans are very cool and certainly historically important, but because they were created by Fawcett they haven't attained the stature of the top DC ashcans (Action Comics, Action Funnies, Double Action, Superman, Wonder Woman, All Star, Superboy, Superwoman, Supergirl, and Flash). These characters and titles form the foundation for the hobby we love as well as the billions of dollars of commerce they've generated over the past 75 years.

 

The Lone Ranger ashcan just sold for $7,500 or so last week. I can argue that the Lone Ranger is as important (more important?) within our popular culture as Captain Marvel. Yet his first appearance ever in print brings less than $10,000?

 

We all love these wonderful characters and books, but out-of-sight/out-of-mind often is the determining factor when considering value. Your MF 73 is a perfect example. Aquaman and Green Arrow were always second-tier characters, but now with all the movie hype, a new generation of fans will be introduced to them on the big screen (at the theatre and in their homes) and will embrace them as their own. You will benefit handsomely because of this new found interest.

 

Just assuming something will be valuable (based on whatever criteria one comes up with) won't necessarily make it happen.

 

And congrats on owning that MF 73. I've always loved that book!

 

 

Oh thanks Moondog. Gator and I were just talking about you . Question for you....I agree that those other ashcans come from stronger overall companies and stuff than Fawcett....but those ashcans are significant for starting the titles, correct? None of them have the actual characters in it, right? At least not new material that hadn't been printed yet. No new characters or first appearances, correct? Maybe I hold that in too much regard, as that happens to be my preference for collecting. But there you have it - that's my reasoning. Is there anything in particular about any of those ashcans that stands-out in your opinion?

 

The Lone Ranger had appeared before in other media, right?

 

By the way, I'm not overly new to the hobby . I sold all my coins and sports-cards and switched to comics somewhere around the year 2000.

 

Your argument is sound and the same one that Fishler made 30 years ago. It is cool that Whiz 1 is actually an ashcan. But I could argue that a Captain Marvel ashcan is cooler than a Whiz ashcan, just as I believe the Superman ashcan is superior to Action and Wonder Woman is more significant than Sensation. Is it the anthology title or the character's own book that's more important? I believe in the area of ashcans it's the character's book, you may feel differently, but that's what makes eating sushi, drinking wine and talking comics so enjoyable!

 

The $27,000 sale is a strong price. It's now the floor for this book. If it ever changes hands again (these things are so rare they seldomly come to market) in the next few years, and Captain Marvel does well on screen, I wouldn't be surprised if it sold for $35-40K.

 

The Lone Ranger first appeared (was heard?) as a radio show in 1933. The LR ashcan protected an upcoming pulp title in 1936. It's his first appearance in print and as such very significant.

 

 

[Moondog]

That Superman 15 is a nice book. Congrats to whoever picked it up.

 

This was my friend's copy. I sold it to him in 1980 for $500. He needs the money so this price was very welcome.

[EJR]

That Superman 15 is a nice book. Congrats to whoever picked it up.

Thanks! I paid a lot for it but Superman 15 is a very tough book to find in high grade and it has white pages to boot! Terry O'Neill of Terry's comics who gave me the heads up a few years ago on how tough it is to find this book in high grade! EJR

[Moondog]

That Superman 15 is a nice book. Congrats to whoever picked it up.

Thanks! I paid a lot for it but Superman 15 is a very tough book to find in high grade and it has white pages to boot! Terry O'Neill of Terry's comics who gave me the heads up a few years ago on how tough it is to find this book in high grade! EJR

 

You'll love the book. The only certified copy with white pages. I thought it should have gotten an 8.5. Thanks again.

[MrBedrock]

That Superman 15 is a nice book. Congrats to whoever picked it up.

What did it go for? I missed it...

[Sqeggs]

That Superman 15 is a nice book. Congrats to whoever picked it up.

What did it go for? I missed it...

 

$5,200

[MrBedrock]

That Superman 15 is a nice book. Congrats to whoever picked it up.

What did it go for? I missed it...

 

$5,200

Strong. Thanks (thumbs u

[markseifert]

The Action ashcan has the interior to Detective 1 and the rejected cover art to Detective 2. This was well over a year before Action 1 was actually published and sold. So clearly Action Comics was something on Donenfeld's radar screen long before it saw print and his ashcan protected it. One account of the Action Comics ashcan has Donenfeld ordering Action Comics, Double Action Comics and Triple Action Comics. No Triple Action has ever surfaced either.

 

I don't think Donenfeld was involved in a pre-Action Superman ashcan as I don't believe he was aware of the character until late 1937 or early 1938.

 

Thank you. Ok, ... maybe this all makes more sense than I thought it did.

 

Trademark regs suggest that (in theory) the Superman Ashcan would also have been in early 1937. But they didn't publish for opposition until 1939, which has always left the door open in my mind for the idea that Donenfeld/Liebowitz fudged the registration in their bid to push the Major out.

 

That aside, the reg has a firm date of Jan 3, 1937 for first use of "Superman", which certainly suggests they had a specific "publication" in mind. [so... either the ashcan or something like an ashcan existed, or the filing is false]

 

The Wheeler-Nicholson family believes (through family conversations while the Major was still alive) that the Major had a Superman book in some stage of production just prior to Donenfeld/Liebowitz's involvement, which actually fits both scenarios here -- the material could have been "on the books" in the office before Donenfeld locked into what they had.

 

But, taken as a whole -- your point about the Action Ashcan being well in advance also -- it does suggest that Liebowitz may have simply started getting all the company's ducks in a row as soon as they got into the business with the Major, and started locking down all the new/important/upcoming stuff as soon as they got in there.

 

Yeah, all the publishers were circling their wagons by late 1939. There are single weeks in 1940 where 4-5 comic book trademarks were published for opposition with USPTO.

[The-Collector]

The Action ashcan has the interior to Detective 1 and the rejected cover art to Detective 2. This was well over a year before Action 1 was actually published and sold. So clearly Action Comics was something on Donenfeld's radar screen long before it saw print and his ashcan protected it. One account of the Action Comics ashcan has Donenfeld ordering Action Comics, Double Action Comics and Triple Action Comics. No Triple Action has ever surfaced either.

 

I don't think Donenfeld was involved in a pre-Action Superman ashcan as I don't believe he was aware of the character until late 1937 or early 1938.

 

Thank you. Ok, ... maybe this all makes more sense than I thought it did.

 

Trademark regs suggest that (in theory) the Superman Ashcan would also have been in early 1937. But they didn't publish for opposition until 1939, which has always left the door open in my mind for the idea that Donenfeld/Liebowitz fudged the registration in their bid to push the Major out.

 

That aside, the reg has a firm date of Jan 3, 1937 for first use of "Superman", which certainly suggests they had a specific "publication" in mind. [so... either the ashcan or something like an ashcan existed, or the filing is false]

 

The Wheeler-Nicholson family believes (through family conversations while the Major was still alive) that the Major had a Superman book in some stage of production just prior to Donenfeld/Liebowitz's involvement, which actually fits both scenarios here -- the material could have been "on the books" in the office before Donenfeld locked into what they had.

 

But, taken as a whole -- your point about the Action Ashcan being well in advance also -- it does suggest that Liebowitz may have simply started getting all the company's ducks in a row as soon as they got into the business with the Major, and started locking down all the new/important/upcoming stuff as soon as they got in there.

 

Yeah, all the publishers were circling their wagons by late 1939. There are single weeks in 1940 where 4-5 comic book trademarks were published for opposition with USPTO.

 

Your posts are always so enlightening and well informed.

[nearmint]

$52 K on the restored Superman 1 7.0.

 

I really shoulda kept my Supes 1.

[Depswa-migration]

 

Either CBCS is changing the way folks view restored books or CC is up to something.

[thunsicker]

Got three Schomburgs in this auction.

 

 

and the one I'm really excited for

 

 

Not a Pep 22 or Captain Thunder Ashcan, but I'm happy.

[AnkurJ]

$52 K on the restored Superman 1 7.0.

 

I really shoulda kept my Supes 1.

 

I was offered this book at NYCC by CC for much less but needed terms. The book was apparently sold at the show. In either case it was beneficial for CC to auction the book rather then sell outright.

[ciorac]

$52 K on the restored Superman 1 7.0.

 

I really shoulda kept my Supes 1.

 

It was a nice one for sure.

 

I miss mine, but it sold for a very strong price in the last CC auction. Most ever for a restored copy as far as I can tell

[batman_fan]

I thought the $27,000 for the Flash ashcan was a strong price. It's now a top 10 ashcan. The buyer knew quality and paid for it. How much did you think it would sell for?

 

Top 10 ashcan?? I consider the Flash/Thrill Captain Marvel ashcan to CLEARLY be the #1 ashcan.

 

I don't base my opinions strictly on previous sales numbers. Because those change; books often skyrocket. I thought this might be one of those books. I thought it would skyrocket like the Whiz #2 6.0 did....if not more. I realized that ashcans aren't en vogue yet, so I wasn't necessarily expecting a huge price. But I thought it would be a lot better. In the future I'm sure it will.

 

This ashcan is #1 because it's the only one to feature the first appearance of a character....let-alone a mega-key character. Plus it's directly linked to Whiz #2, solving the mystery of the missing #1 issue. Plus it has original Captain Marvel art on the cover. Sure the Action 1 ashcan trademarked the name 'Action'. But that's not ultra-interesting to me. If it had Superman in it, THEN WE'RE TALKING. But it doesn't. Flash/Thrill is the only ashcan of mega-interest in my opinion.

 

No offense, but I don't understand why people don't see this. I think when it comes to comics, 2 people can look at the same thing and see completely different things.

 

Gary (i.e. Moondog) is probably the leading expert on ashcans

[batman_fan]

I thought the $27,000 for the Flash ashcan was a strong price. It's now a top 10 ashcan. The buyer knew quality and paid for it. How much did you think it would sell for?

 

Top 10 ashcan?? I consider the Flash/Thrill Captain Marvel ashcan to CLEARLY be the #1 ashcan.

 

I don't base by opinions strictly on previous sales numbers. Because those change; books often skyrocket. I thought this might be one of those books. I thought it would skyrocket like the Whiz #2 6.0 did....if not more. I realized that ashcans aren't en vogue yet, so I wasn't necessarily expecting a huge price. But I thought it would be a lot better. In the future I'm sure it will.

 

This ashcan is #1 because it's the only one to feature the first appearance of a character....let-alone a mega-key character. Plus it's directly linked to Whiz #2, solving the mystery of the missing #1 issue. Plus it has original Captain Marvel art on the cover. Sure the Action 1 ashcan trademarked the name 'Action'. But that's not ultra-interesting to me. If it had Superman in it, THEN WE'RE TALKING. But it doesn't. Flash/Thrill is the only ashcan of mega-interest in my opinion.

 

No offense, but I don't understand why people don't see this. I think when it comes to comics, 2 people can look at the same thing and see completely different things.

nothing personal, but Gary (moondog) IS the authority on Ashcans... his word/opinion carries more weight than everyone else's combined, imo... I don't pretend to understand the appeal, as I don't see it, but I respect what Gary's says and take it as absolute truth...

 

 

Once again, beaten by the G.A.tor

[Jaydogrules]

Either CBCS is changing the way folks view restored books or CC is up to something.

 

And I wonder how many of those books used to live in CGC holders.....

 

Looks like CBCS is well on their way to being the "restored book grading company". (thumbs u

 

-J.

[RareHighGrade]

Any chance this excitement over MF 73 will spill over to MF 74?

[batman_fan]

Any chance this excitement over MF 73 will spill over to MF 74?

 

personally, I think that copy has a lot of other things going for it