Pressing

[esquirecomics]

Aman, you and I are in agreement. Like yourself, I'm completely against pressing, and will never ever have my books pressed. However, here are a few problems with disclosing pressing for certain books:

 

- If the book is a Pedigree and was initially graded as 9.0 by CGC, but someone had it pressed to a 9.6 and reslabbed. Since the only way to track that book is due to its Pedigree status, then what's to stop the seller from taking it out its slab and resubmitting it as a non-Pedigree. How many Pedigree books would be lost in the shuffle due to people's greed. I realize that even a pressed Edgar Church book is worth more in 9.0 condition than a regular book in 9.6 condition, but how many other Pedigrees can we say this about. I would hate to see Pedigree books take the brunt of the attack, while other pressed books fly under the radar and still sell for multiples of guide.

 

- I purchase a book from a major dealer at 1.25 X guide, 2 years later I find out that the dealer I bought it from has been pressing his books for years, and my books were probably candidates. I turn around and disclose this information to everyone, and the book sells for 50% guide. The next person takes the book and sells it at 1.25 X guide (as unrestored) and makes a killing on the purchase. Is this person being dishonest, of course. However, since CGC can't detect it, it's his word against mine. I can already see these crooks lining up to buy disclosed pressed books to turn around and sell them as a profit, while honest people suffer the consequences.

 

If pressing is detected in the future, then I'm sure the dynamics would change, and I would be one of the first people to have my books checked and disclosed. Until that day happens, I'm not going to play a gussing game since I purchased some books from a dealer that presses their books, but has no records.

 

This response is not entirely directed at Skybolt but his message encapsulates others comments as well so it provides a springboard.

 

His concern regarding pedigrees is not unfounded or even hypothetical. There is at least circumstantial evidence that this is what transpired with my More Fun #52 (although not with respect to pressing). It was previously a restored CGC 6.5 Nick Cage/Rockford copy. The glue was removed and it legitimately became a blue label CGC 5.5 BUT no designation of Cage/Rockford. Why? My guess is this occurred to hide the modifications to the book. Doesn't make sense to me that someone did this, but I cannot think of any other reasonable answer. After documentating the change, CGC has agreed to restore the pedigree designation and I intend to do so.

 

Now, I don't think this will be done often. Nor do I think many could get away with it given the knowledge that exists surrounding pedigree copies. Of course, who is to say that someone without knowledge or experience will purchase the book first before the "experts" identify the non-designated pedigree as a former pedigree.

 

Still, given our ability to at least trace pedigrees, I feel this is a worthwhile place to start. We need a starting point to get the movement in the community.

 

We should focus more on the present and future rather than the past. Nothing we can do about the past except to use it to help reach determinations in the present and future. Pressing from now on should be disclosed.

 

I have taken this pledge. I'll sign a certificate if someone drafts one up! In any event, buyers/collectors can do something to at least protect themselves from unscrupulous dealers/sellers. When you buy a book from someone, have them sign a simple "contract" stating that the dealer/seller asserts he/she did not have the book pressed nor are they personally aware that the book has been pressed. If it later comes to light that the person lied, you have grounds to pursue legal action and the dealer/seller, depending upon the level of fraudulent business they conducted, may even face criminal penalties.

 

Put the dealers/sellers on the spot to back up their product. I have been doing this for years, particularly with e-bay purchases. An honest, nothing-to-hide, dealer/seller should be willing to sign the document. Those who refuse, well perhaps you should stay away from. In fact, let's post their names on the boards. We can best keep people honest through continual oversight.

[DiceX]

I have taken this pledge. I'll sign a certificate if someone drafts one up! In any event, buyers/collectors can do something to at least protect themselves from unscrupulous dealers/sellers. When you buy a book from someone, have them sign a simple "contract" stating that the dealer/seller asserts he/she did not have the book pressed nor are they personally aware that the book has been pressed.

 

I already posted the contract...

This is my funny book! There are many like it, but this one is mine! My funny book is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it, like I master my life. Without me, my funny book is useless. Without my funny book, I am useless. I must press my funny book true! I must press straighter than my enemy who is trying to price gouge me. I must screw him before he screws me! I will! Before God, I swear this creed...My funny book and myself are defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviors of my life! So be it! Until there is no restoration! But Peace! And that!

[drbanner]

This is my funny book! There are many like it, but this one is mine! My funny book is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it, like I master my life. Without me, my funny book is useless. Without my funny book, I am useless. I must press my funny book true! I must press straighter than my enemy who is trying to price gouge me. I must screw him before he screws me! I will! Before God, I swear this creed...My funny book and myself are defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviors of my life! So be it! Until there is no restoration! But Peace! And that!

 

Hulk Smash Puny Contract and Press books into dust!

 

[DiceX]

This is my funny book! There are many like it, but this one is mine! My funny book is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it, like I master my life. Without me, my funny book is useless. Without my funny book, I am useless. I must press my funny book true! I must press straighter than my enemy who is trying to price gouge me. I must screw him before he screws me! I will! Before God, I swear this creed...My funny book and myself are defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviors of my life! So be it! Until there is no restoration! But Peace! And that!

 

Hulk Smash Puny Contract and Press books into dust!

 

 

Where's Wertham when you need him?

[Ze-man]

DiceX I can understand how farcical this is to you..And that is how you choose to take part in the topic.

But Mark is at least trying to make a serious attempt to try and police this thing. Granted it is a near futile effort on his part, but I applaud him for at least making the attempt.

 

We gotta start somewhere, and someone has to lead the way.

 

 

Now leave us alone and go make some more tracings..or other important things you can affect.

 

 

Ze-

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jbud73]

This is the hot topic of conversation this year absolutely no doubt about it. Esquire not sure you had a look at the previous threads, but since I think that I have been here since the beginning of the pressing argument I'll add a few points.

 

The pressing debate started with the Pedigrees, the now famous, or infamous depend on your pespective "What Changed thread" with discussion of the Church book and of course the Green River DD for sale on Ewert's site.

 

Arty has posted an interesting if frightening chart which goes into a detailed examination of the Church books and their changes in grade based on resubmissions. I think the instances of Pressing, or altering Pedigrees is what really got the ball rolling and enlightened collectors / buyer of what was occuring in the back issues market and moreso the degree with which it was occuring.

 

Another interesting item from the early discussions on pressing were the posts which showed know dealer EBAY Ids purchasing equipment such as Dry Mount presses etc. - Does anyone still have the links to that information??? Just curious.

 

Personally, I do not have a problem with restoration IE I would readily buy and seek to have a book restored. Why? well because I view restoration as a conservation technique desinged to improve the longevity of a comic book when performed properly. There is of course one caveat - Disclosure

 

The real issue with NDP is DISCLOSURE, there are many arguements for disclosure.. Some blame CGC who they believe have given restoration the kiss of death with the PLOD. CGC stance has often been we grade and examine the book, the marketplace then dictates what $$$ to asses to that. I have come to see NDP as a cyclical issue tied to its forbearer - Color touch.

 

Now its true that NDP and Color Touch as different forms of Alteration (I view them both as resto, but I use alteration as I know all do not share this view). Minor Color Touch was an accepted practice a couple of deacdes and go and it knew no bounds, which is evidenced by its application to Pedigrees such as the Church books. While the lack of foresight seems apparent now, I guess back then it was the little bump in the road that people looked the other way on and started from a small basis and then proliferated. A small technique used to achieve perfection - Sound Familiar. I truly now believe that NDP is the modern version of Slight Color Touch.

 

It can be done by nearly anyone.

It is currently nearly impossible to detect - CGC has stated they can't with confidence, what does that mean for the average colelctor on the show floor???

Its effective and cost effcient IE the cost to NDP a book can be easily recouped and then some in profit potential.

It started out as the little stigma, but I really believe that NDP has seen a huge increase in frequency in the past 2-3 years.

 

Why do I think this? Well for one its the only trick, or the easiest one in terms of risk reward to perform and still retain a blue label. Add to that the professional restorers that have highlighted it as a new service in their repitoire.

 

So where does that leave the collector and the hobby at large??

 

Well think about Color Touch, a lot of people were sold slight CT books and not informed about the CT. I'm sure a lot of sellers took the moral high road back then too. "What not me? Where? No way do I sell CT books? They were able to do this because Slight CT was hard to detect, you dont a lot of ppl at shows with black lights and microscopes do you. After the fact and now that CGC has made an affordable resto check available the attitude is. "Yes its regrettable but that was then this is now" CGC does not even consider slight CT on GA books as resto. This fact alone should illustrate exactly how rampant slight CT was back in the day.

 

So now I hear the same song from a lot of sellers with NDP. "Not me, no way, prove it....." Secure in the knowledge that detection is very difficult, or impossible in the present context. This is of course a short sighted view, as we should think that some day a fairly inexpensive method from determing NDP at the molecular level might exist. I fear we will then have a similar situation to CT whereby the rationalization will ensue. "Ya it occured, but that was the loophole in the day, everyone was doing it, that's just the way it was.

[shrunkenhead]

DiceX I can understand how farcical this is to you..And that is how you choose to take part in the topic.

But Mark is at least trying to make a serious attempt to try and police this thing. Granted it is a near futile effort on his part, but I applaud him for at least making the attempt.

 

We gotta start somewhere, and someone has to lead the way.

 

 

Now leave us alone and go make some more tracings..or other important things you can affect.

 

 

I'm in total agreement here. It seems pretty unfair to me to bust Mark's nuts simply because he's doing the rare, right thing and offering total disclosure on his books. Surely there's a target better deserving the . Might I recommend the "Destro banned" thread?

[Ze-man]

That post was 2 mouthfuls, (and very well thought out too)

 

Nice summary.

 

As you said..to bad we all have to wait for a fairly easy way to detect pressing to come along before it will deter people from not giving a second thought about doing it.

 

Ze-

[drbanner]

That post was 2 mouthfuls, (and very well thought out too)

 

Nice summary.

 

As you said..to bad we all have to wait for a fairly easy way to detect pressing to come along before it will deter people from not giving a second thought about doing it.

 

Ze-

 

The odds that there will ever be a method to distinguish between a book professionally pressed by Tracey Heft, and a book that has been sitting under Destro's 2,000 pounds of original Valiant art for the next 30 years while he waits for it to appreciate, is very slim (I would have said "...there will never be...", but then someone would inevitably have told me to never say never).

 

As such, I agree w/Jbud, it all comes down to disclosure from the seller as the buyer/CGC/(the next CGC) will never be able to confidentally determine whether or not a book has been "pressed". Isn't every book pressed when it's stapled and folded in half anyway? So many questions, so many loopholes, so few answers, so it all comes back to disclosure...

[Ze-man]

so few answers, so it all comes back to disclosure...

 

 

Until the book is sold. And that person decides to swallow the resto cert. upon resubmitting it, or re selling it.

 

Oh wait...this was already said before many times.

 

Nevermind.

 

Ze-

[DiceX]

DiceX I can understand how farcical this is to you..And that is how you choose to take part in the topic.

But Mark is at least trying to make a serious attempt to try and police this thing. Granted it is a near futile effort on his part, but I applaud him for at least making the attempt.

 

We gotta start somewhere, and someone has to lead the way.

 

 

Now leave us alone and go make some more tracings..or other important things you can affect.

 

 

I'm in total agreement here. It seems pretty unfair to me to bust Mark's nuts simply because he's doing the rare, right thing and offering total disclosure on his books. Surely there's a target better deserving the . Might I recommend the "Destro banned" thread?

 

You guys are right. I sound like a in this thread.

Mark, I apologize for busting your nuts, and I'll try to be more civil in the future.

I think you're trying to do a noble deed.

But I reserve the right to have my opinion.

If Z-Man likes it or not.

[PovertyRow]

You guys are right. I sound like a in this thread.

 

Only in this thread?

[Ze-man]

If Z-Man likes it or not.

 

 

So am I the bad guy now?

 

If so need to switch hats again..I cannot keep up.

 

Ze-

[Red Hook]

You're neither good nor bad. You're nancing. Whatever that means.

[DiceX]

You're neither good nor bad. You're nancing. Whatever that means.

 

He's nancing, alright.

I give you my word.

[Red Hook]

And you would know....why?

[DiceX]

And you would know....why?

 

What happens at the forum dinner...stays at the forum dinner.

[Ze-man]

You're neither good nor bad. You're nancing. Whatever that means.

 

He's nancing, alright.

I give you my word.

 

 

Aww Dicey.. why cant we make like your avatar

 

Kiss and Makeup

 

 

 

Ze-

[DiceX]

You're neither good nor bad. You're nancing. Whatever that means.

 

He's nancing, alright.

I give you my word.

 

 

Aww Dicey.. why cant we make like your avatar

 

Kiss and Makeup

 

 

 

Ze-

 

 

BWAAAAHAHAHHAAA!

[jbud73]

Thanks Ze, I guess I was just trying to summarize what I have come to see as the big picture when it comes to NDP. For my third and fourth mouthfuls hahah, I will try and go a bit furhter and assess the implications for the average collector from my point of view.

 

"What to do with an informed opinion?"

 

So your a comic collector, you pay hundreds if not thousands of dollars on funny books that once sold for a dime, or a quarter. You're not Steve Geppi, or a certain Dentist, you don't have an original owner collection passed down for generations - you have to scrape, study, review, read and make decisions with far reaching and short term implications, sometimes in the blink of an eye. In short you want the best deal at the best price and you have to be sure of what you are buying because there isn't a Better Business Bureau for comic books man and you don't like the feeling of getting at the drive through.

 

As the purchaser of single back issues in the hundreds / thousands of dollars Non-Dissassembly Pressing (NDP) is a factor on your radar. You understand what it is, why it's done, but what does it mean to you and your potential purchases?? Well lets start with some facts.

 

Comic Books are being pressed NDP style.

Those books are being sold both raw and in CGC blue labels.

The NDP is not being disclosed to buyers.

The long term effects of NDP are unknown. Many feel the process is irreversible, but you've seen Joseph (ComWiz) post books that were the most warped 9.4s you've ever seen in a Blue Holder

Well maybe that was an amateur press job, then again who knows what technique has or might have been applied to the book you are about to buy - why, see point 3 on dislcosure.

 

So again where does this leave you?? Are there books where NDP is a more likely issue. Well at first there is the belief that only HG books are candidates, the separation between 9.2 and 9.4, or 9.6 often being slight non-color breaking creases that can be pressed out. Still others believe that GA books are better candidates due to their harder cover and paper stock. Still Arty's list looms large, where books jumped from mid-grade to high grade in surprising fashion. Its true NDP is not the cure all, defects, such as tears, corner blunting staining or foxing are immune. But general surface wear on both front nad back covers are prime defects for NDP and surface wear or lack of it is a large determing factor in the grade of a comic book.

 

With all this in mind, what has NDP meant to me?? Well its opened my eyes a little bit in 2 areas. The first is CGC. Now some people feel its CGC's responsibility to do something about NDP. While it would be nice if they could detect it and I get by the chicken and egg arguement of "we can't detect it so its not resto" Still CGC does catch a lot of things, people just have to understand that NDP is NOT one of them.

 

The second issue is the huge multiples paid for slabbed books. If a book can be brought from 9.4 to 9.6 for $20-$100 is the increment from 9.4 to 9.6 really worth the 10x or even 5x multiplier. Now I realize there are no hard and fast rules. Certain books are hard in grade and all the NDP in the world will not help them get there. However, the frequency with which we see huge multipliers - is that really justified by the arbitrary nature of a 1/2 grade increase. The answer in my mind has more and more been NO. The quote that I use to reaffirm that in my mind is this.

 

"In order to understand the subjective nature of a graded comic you must fully understand what that comic has been subject too."

 

Talk amongst yourselves.