THE FLASH starring Ezra Miller 2022 10 10

[Bosco685]

Must have been a really serious situation

[D84]

Something a friend pointed out to me about the situation: (paraphrased since I didn't ask permission to quote exactly)

This non binary LGBTQ person, sure hits a lot of women.

[theCapraAegagrus]

If the internet existed sooner, we would have so little entertainment available to us.

RDJ would never have been cast as Iron Man if the general population knew exactly how troubled his past was.

And, no, teenagers and people in their 20's had no idea about RDJ's past when Iron Man came out. We all only knew that he was a spectacular Tony Stark and Iron Man.

No, my commentary does not indicate that Ezra Miller deserves a 'pass' from me or anyone else. At this point, I'm simply not interested in 'cancelling' his movies because of his stupidity. He does need legitimate help.

[Buzzetta]

On 4/20/2022 at 1:57 PM, theCapraAegagrus said:

If the internet existed sooner, we would have so little entertainment available to us.

RDJ would never have been cast as Iron Man if the general population knew exactly how troubled his past was.

And, no, teenagers and people in their 20's had no idea about RDJ's past when Iron Man came out. We all only knew that he was a spectacular Tony Stark and Iron Man.

No, my commentary does not indicate that Ezra Miller deserves a 'pass' from me or anyone else. At this point, I'm simply not interested in 'cancelling' his movies because of his stupidity. He does need legitimate help.

I don't know about that. 

I was curious so I did a news article search on him from 2004-2007.  There is a lot of dedicated articles from sources like the NYT, Esquire, and other releases that talk about his recovery and his spending time in jail.  It was a regular news thing.  By the time of tapping him for the role he is said to be turning his life around and on the path to redemption. 

With Miller it quite different.  Miller has not won the awards that RDJ won by the time his major troubles arose.  If I am a Hollywood boss, I am looking at something bankable and proven with RDJ that Miller is not on the same level. RDJ had a bankable resume by 2006-2007 that Miller does not (in comparison).

If I am a movie boss I have to ask myself, "Is this kid worth the trouble?"

RDJ stayed marketable from the start of and during his tenure as a face of a franchise. 

Ezra Miller is in the middle of a franchise and is falling apart. 

If the studio fires him from the role it is not about "cancelling", it comes down to numbers.  If I am in charge and I feel that he is costing me money, then I can get a dozen other guys that can take that role with less drama.  The word "cancel" is thrown around too loosely these days.

There is a big difference between RDJ and Ezra Miller.  RDJ has come to define Iron Man.  Very few actors have done that in these Franchise films.  When we do get a 'new' Tony Stark he will always be compared to RDJ.  Is Ezra Miller defining the Flash?  When someone says, "The Flash", to your average movie goer, does the name Ezra Miller pop into that person's head.

It's quite different and I can very easily see Miller getting the boot if he screws up one more time between now and the release of the film. 

 

Edited April 20, 2022 by Buzzetta

[RickSp]

It's disappointing that it's become so problematic, not just with Miller himself but with all the delays etc that have plagued the overall production. The film was the opportunity to open up some cool possibilities but it's hard to tell anymore.

Who knows, maybe the next teaser will offer more about what this film is trying to do. And hopefully Miller can sort himself out, for his own good as well as the franchise. If that means him stepping away then so be it. I admit I liked him in ZSJL though so was looking forward to this.

[D84]

On 4/20/2022 at 12:57 PM, theCapraAegagrus said:

If the internet existed sooner, we would have so little entertainment available to us.

RDJ would never have been cast as Iron Man if the general population knew exactly how troubled his past was.

And, no, teenagers and people in their 20's had no idea about RDJ's past when Iron Man came out. We all only knew that he was a spectacular Tony Stark and Iron Man.

No, my commentary does not indicate that Ezra Miller deserves a 'pass' from me or anyone else. At this point, I'm simply not interested in 'cancelling' his movies because of his stupidity. He does need legitimate help.

I don't know of any reports of Robert Downey, Jr. being violent, it was drug abuse.

And there is a huge difference between canning a problem employee, and cancel culture.

[Bosco685]

On 4/20/2022 at 2:57 PM, Buzzetta said:

I don't know about that. 

I was curious so I did a news article search on him from 2004-2007.  There is a lot of dedicated articles from sources like the NYT, Esquire, and other releases that talk about his recovery and his spending time in jail.  It was a regular news thing.  By the time of tapping him for the role he is said to be turning his life around and on the path to redemption. 

With Miller it quite different.  Miller has not won the awards that RDJ won by the time his major troubles arose.  If I am a Hollywood boss, I am looking at something bankable and proven with RDJ that Miller is not on the same level. RDJ had a bankable resume by 2006-2007 that Miller does not (in comparison).

If I am a movie boss I have to ask myself, "Is this kid worth the trouble?"

RDJ stayed marketable from the start of and during his tenure as a face of a franchise. 

Ezra Miller is in the middle of a franchise and is falling apart. 

If the studio fires him from the role it is not about "cancelling", it comes down to numbers.  If I am in charge and I feel that he is costing me money, then I can get a dozen other guys that can take that role with less drama.  The word "cancel" is thrown around too loosely these days.

There is a big difference between RDJ and Ezra Miller.  RDJ has come to define Iron Man.  Very few actors have done that in these Franchise films.  When we do get a 'new' Tony Stark he will always be compared to RDJ.  Is Ezra Miller defining the Flash?  When someone says, "The Flash", to your average movie goer, does the name Ezra Miller pop into that person's head.

It's quite different and I can very easily see Miller getting the boot if he screws up one more time between now and the release of the film. 

 

There's a reason why RDJ is such a fanatical friend to Mel Gibson. When he was recovering and working to rebuild his brand again, Gibson was one of the key people that got him those roles that finally made him appear to Marvel Studios at the time (no Disney involvement yet) as bankable. And why he tried to get Mel Gibson a job with Marvel Studios later on.

Miller doesn't feel like ANYONE is helping him out. If anything, he is his own worst enemy. And that is sad. He may have too many enablers in his life.

[Gatsby77]

On 4/20/2022 at 1:57 PM, theCapraAegagrus said:

If the internet existed sooner, we would have so little entertainment available to us.

RDJ would never have been cast as Iron Man if the general population knew exactly how troubled his past was.

And, no, teenagers and people in their 20's had no idea about RDJ's past when Iron Man came out. We all only knew that he was a spectacular Tony Stark and Iron Man.

No, my commentary does not indicate that Ezra Miller deserves a 'pass' from me or anyone else. At this point, I'm simply not interested in 'cancelling' his movies because of his stupidity. He does need legitimate help.

What Buzzetta said.

First, the internet existed in 1997, and 2000, and 2008. As did the tabloids, Entertainment Weekly and shows like Entertainment Tonight.

In other words, RDJ's troubles were extraordinarily well-known.

Hell, they literally *let him out of jail* to film U.S. Marshals.

And he was memorialized in one of my all-time favorite Simpsons clips: 

But he'd also:

1) Been a household name for 25 years at that point.

2) Had secured an Oscar nomination (for Chaplin)

3) Done his time (repeatedly); and (most importantly):

4) Worked his way back up in Hollywood - starting with Ally McBeal. Yes - he was ultimately fired from Ally McBeal for back-sliding and another drug arrest, but that was a pivotal turning point - and he was one of the first movie stars to join a major TV series, before that became fashionable/acceptable, and long before streaming gave us the era of prestige TV.

Then he continued to work - and in the three years prior to Iron Man turned in stellar performances in films like Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang; Good Night and Good Luck; A Scanner Darkly and Zodiac.

Having folks like George Clooney, Richard Linklater and David Fincher willing to vouch for you goes a long way towards minimizing the casting risk on Iron Man -- to say nothing of his aforementioned long-standing friendships with Mel Gibson and Jodie Foster - each of whom (as Bosco noted) gave him key chances at redemption earlier.

 

Absolutely no comparison between RDJ and Ezra Miller.

[bentbryan]

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 4/20/2022 at 2:57 PM, Buzzetta said:

I don't know about that. 

I was curious so I did a news article search on him from 2004-2007.  There is a lot of dedicated articles from sources like the NYT, Esquire, and other releases that talk about his recovery and his spending time in jail.  It was a regular news thing.  By the time of tapping him for the role he is said to be turning his life around and on the path to redemption.

I am thinking that you were not in your teens or twenties in 2008, though.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 4/20/2022 at 4:41 PM, D84 said:

I don't know of any reports of Robert Downey, Jr. being violent, it was drug abuse.

And there is a huge difference between canning a problem employee, and cancel culture.

Sure, but all of the uproar that I am seeing is "fans" wanting WB to can Miller and no one to hire him for future movies. That's pretty much all cancel culture is.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 4/20/2022 at 5:23 PM, Gatsby77 said:

What Buzzetta said.

First, the internet existed in 1997, and 2000, and 2008. As did the tabloids, Entertainment Weekly and shows like Entertainment Tonight.

Which teens and people in their twenties didn't really read/watch, is the point.

Edited April 21, 2022 by theCapraAegagrus

[Gatsby77]

On 4/21/2022 at 6:40 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Which teens and people in their twenties didn't really read/watch, is the point.

Doesn't change that the internet, Twitter and Facebook were all around in 2007-2009.

And that RDJ brought up his troubled past and Cinderella story in nearly every interview.

Just because a 15 year-old in 2008 may not have seen RDJ's earlier work or remembered the news reports (or even seen that Simpsons clip I'd posted earlier) doesn't mean they weren't aware of his past legal troubles in 2008. They weren't just common knowledge - they were also actively milked as part of the marketing campaign for the first Iron Man film.

I will concede a slightly different (but related) point, though.

Had the "Me too" movement - which seemed to accelerate online "cancel culture" - happened 10 years earlier, there's ZERO chance RDJ gets nominated for an Oscar for playing in blackface. That he got less blowback for that than Sir Lawrence Olivier did 30+ years earlier is mind-blowing.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 4/21/2022 at 7:01 AM, Gatsby77 said:

Doesn't change that the internet, Twitter and Facebook were all around in 2007-2009.

And that RDJ brought up his troubled past and Cinderella story in nearly every interview.

Just because a 15 year-old in 2008 may not have seen RDJ's earlier work or remembered the news reports (or even seen that Simpsons clip I'd posted earlier) doesn't mean they weren't aware of his past legal troubles in 2008. They weren't just common knowledge - they were also actively milked as part of the marketing campaign for the first Iron Man film.

I will concede a slightly different (but related) point, though.

Had the "Me too" movement - which seemed to accelerate online "cancel culture" - happened 10 years earlier, there's ZERO chance RDJ gets nominated for an Oscar for playing in blackface. That he got less blowback for that than Sir Lawrence Olivier did 30+ years earlier is mind-blowing.

Which people in their teens and twenties also did not use on-average at the time.

The change in who absorbs what media is why the situation is different, and why entertainment is suffering. Again, this is not a "Miller gets a pass" discussion, rather an analysis of how different the situation is being received by the target audience of the project(s).

Edited April 21, 2022 by theCapraAegagrus

[Buzzetta]

On 4/21/2022 at 6:37 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

I am thinking that you were not in your teens or twenties in 2008, though.

In 2008 I had just left my 30's. 

All of these announcements about his troubles were around 2004-2006 when he was cast.  I was in my 20's for part of that.   It was well known.  I remember the articles when I was in my 20's about Ally McBeal, him singing with Sting, and why it was a path of redemption.  
 

 

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 4/21/2022 at 7:24 AM, Buzzetta said:

In 2008 I had just left my 30's. 

All of these announcements about his troubles were around 2004-2006 when he was cast.  I was in my 20's for part of that.   It was well known.  I remember the articles when I was in my 20's about Ally McBeal, him singing with Sting, and why it was a path of redemption. 

Yeah, people my dad's age knew. People my age didn't. It's the different types of people consuming different forms of media. If you don't think it's any different, then fine, but I am going to sternly disagree. Too many people my age, the ones begging for cancel culture on social media, think (or, at least, act like) this kind of behavior is new.

Is it better if people like Ezra Miller are not parts of big entertainment productions? Probably, but I am recognizing that this kind of understanding will lead to bad people with good art/ideas/etc not coming to the forefront. I don't think it's as black-and-white as that being a 'good thing'.

Edited April 21, 2022 by theCapraAegagrus

[thunsicker]

On 4/21/2022 at 6:01 AM, Gatsby77 said:

And that RDJ brought up his troubled past and Cinderella story in nearly every interview.

I agree with most of your post.  But you and I have a very different memory about this.  I remember him refusing to talk about his past issues and trying to focus on current work.  I even remember him storming off the set during one interview.

[Gatsby77]

On 4/21/2022 at 9:55 AM, thunsicker said:

I agree with most of your post.  But you and I have a very different memory about this.  I remember him refusing to talk about his past issues and trying to focus on current work.  I even remember him storming off the set during one interview.

Sure.

However, I have a very specific memory of an online interview (I forget which outlet) with RDJ as he was still getting in shape for the role in which he discussed not only his training but the studio's initial reticence to anchor a major studio film to him, given his past drug addiction and history of relapses.

Specifically, Downey Jr. himself mentioned they resolved this by splitting his ($500,000) salary for the film in two - structuring the deal so he received only half up front and the remaining half only when he completed filming (basically - a contingency because he was still deemed uninsurable at the time).

That was - at the time - a unique payment structure, and was part of his media talking points far in advance of the release of the Iron Man film.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Gatsby77

[Gatsby77]

Here's an example - a profile of RDJ in the LA Times a week before Iron Man's release.

Not the article I was talking about above, but an example of the typical pre-release coverage of RDJ, which leaned *heavily* into his personal redemption arc / Cinderella story.

Sure - maybe 15 year-olds weren't reading this (or active on social media, or watching The Simpsons) at the time, but basically anyone who knew who the actor was *at all* knew his criminal history.

*Particularly* because it was a key storyline of his press tour for the film (pre- and post-release).

https://www.latimes.com/entertainment/la-ca-downey27apr27-story.html

[D84]

On 4/21/2022 at 5:39 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Sure, but all of the uproar that I am seeing is "fans" wanting WB to can Miller and no one to hire him for future movies. That's pretty much all cancel culture is.

I didn't say never work again, but if you are arrested for this behavior, most companies would fire you. That's been around long before cancel culture.