General discussion thread - keep the other threads clean 29 29

[jsilverjanet]

haven't you said before it's Best Buy?

[CAHokie]

Large one

 

I thought you worked for Best Buy? Don't they take returns for just about everything?

[Meeklo]

Kinda…I'm not directly associated with Best Buy…we have our own rules…

 

And by we I don't mean just my store.

[prez]

" ... because of third party grading" is not a reason. It's pretty much like saying you can't return a graded book because it is a graded book.

 

Actually, it is a reason.

 

There was a thread started in CG awhile back that asked the question: Would CGC issue a refund if the submitter disagreed with CGC's grades?

 

The answer was a nearly unanimous, resounding "no".

 

Therefore, it's generally understood and accepted within the comic coloecting community that CGC refuses to accept financial responsibility for their grades and none of their customers - submitters or purchasers of slabbed books - expect them to be responsible.

 

So the the argument could reasonably be made that when you buy a CGC graded comic you're buying into the concept that the entity who graded the book isn't responsible for the grade.

 

And since the seller went through the expense, time and risk of having the book grade (probably for, among other reasons, to avoid debates about the grade) I can understand why the seller would be hesitant to accept a responsibility that CGC has flat-out denied, even CGC is the one who graded the book.

 

In general, I don't get the "no return" policy. Majority of us pays via PayPal. I'm not sure if a "no-return" stipulation in a chat forum's sales thread can override PayPal's buyer protection program. My return policy in my sales threads has always been per PayPal Policy.

 

As far as I understand grading is an opinion (professional, in case of CGC). An opinion can vary from one person to another. If the buyer is determined to return a graded book (comes up with an intellectual case, quantifies the defects, etc.), PayPal may side with the buyer.

 

I could be wrong so I'm curious to read you guy's opinion on this....

[Red84]

" ... because of third party grading" is not a reason. It's pretty much like saying you can't return a graded book because it is a graded book.

 

Actually, it is a reason.

 

There was a thread started in CG awhile back that asked the question: Would CGC issue a refund if the submitter disagreed with CGC's grades?

 

The answer was a nearly unanimous, resounding "no".

 

Therefore, it's generally understood and accepted within the comic coloecting community that CGC refuses to accept financial responsibility for their grades and none of their customers - submitters or purchasers of slabbed books - expect them to be responsible.

 

So the the argument could reasonably be made that when you buy a CGC graded comic you're buying into the concept that the entity who graded the book isn't responsible for the grade.

 

And since the seller went through the expense, time and risk of having the book grade (probably for, among other reasons, to avoid debates about the grade) I can understand why the seller would be hesitant to accept a responsibility that CGC has flat-out denied, even CGC is the one who graded the book.

 

In general, I don't get the "no return" policy. Majority of us pays via PayPal. I'm not sure if a "no-return" stipulation in a chat forum's sales thread can override PayPal's buyer protection program. My return policy in my sales threads has always been per PayPal Policy.

 

As far as I understand grading is an opinion (professional, in case of CGC). An opinion can vary from one person to another. If the buyer is determined to return a graded book (comes up with an intellectual case, quantifies the defects, etc.), PayPal may side with the buyer.

 

I could be wrong so I'm curious to read you guy's opinion on this....

 

To such a buyer who would claim Item Not as Described on a forced paypal return on a CGC graded book, I'd say congrats on your return and the result of it also being your last purchase on the forum. No one would ever sell to someone who did a Not as Described return on a slab.

 

The only reason someone would have for a return of a slabbed book is if there is a defect on the front or back cover that is not visible in the photo/scan. I've purchased a graded book that when it arrived looked super tan. I was unhappy but bit the bullet and resold it (with tanning disclosed).

[miraclemet]

 

In general, I don't get the "no return" policy. Majority of us pays via PayPal. I'm not sure if a "no-return" stipulation in a chat forum's sales thread can override PayPal's buyer protection program. My return policy in my sales threads has always been per PayPal Policy.

 

As far as I understand grading is an opinion (professional, in case of CGC). An opinion can vary from one person to another. If the buyer is determined to return a graded book (comes up with an intellectual case, quantifies the defects, etc.), PayPal may side with the buyer.

 

I could be wrong so I'm curious to read you guy's opinion on this....

 

To such a buyer who would claim Item Not as Described on a forced paypal return on a CGC graded book, I'd say congrats on your return and the result of it also being your last purchase on the forum. No one would ever sell to someone who did a Not as Described return on a slab.

 

The only reason someone would have for a return of a slabbed book is if there is a defect on the front or back cover that is not visible in the photo/scan. I've purchased a graded book that when it arrived looked super tan. I was unhappy but bit the bullet and resold it (with tanning disclosed).

 

+1. The unspoken rule here is that if you buy a slab and it arrives in fine shape, then there's no justification for a return. People make exceptions and work things out with sellers but the unwritten rule is "hey if are into the whole buying CGC books, then you're cool with CGC grades, so no futzing about condition discrepancies, this isnt eBay." If someone pushes a return using PayPal's policy, then that buyer will either end up on the probation list (for non-completion of a transaction), or just end up on everyone's personal "No Fly" list.

 

I will say I've done a cgc return many years ago. The book was very tanned once I received it, and when I looked at the pictures the book looked very different. I never made an accusation but I think the scan/photo was "sweetened" to downplay the tanning. I told the seller it was too tan for my tastes in hand and we did a return (I ate the return shipping costs). He didn't balk at the return which was good on him, but I think it also might have been because he knew he had sweetened the scans.

[jimjum12]

Personally, I will accept a return of a CGC book as long as the book has NOT been removed from the slab.Once it is removed it is essentially no longer what I sold. I think the refusal by some to accept returns on CGC is because of the perceived agreement to accept the third party assessment of the book's condition. It isn't quite the same as buying the raw book that is definitely subject to debate. I think many sellers are reluctant to have their money tied up while a buyer cherry picks undergraded books, which I can understand. I just think the benefits of good customer relations makes the return of even the CGC book a good idea...... and most customers aren't going to "game the system" with CGC returns. However, it's not my place to dictate someone else's return policy, as long as it is clearly stated. As for "item not as described", if you order CGC and you get CGC, that argument is ludicrous, in my opinion. The purchase of the CGC item, to me, is an implied agreement to abide.GOD BLESS...

 

-jmbo(a friend of jesus)

[Sqeggs]

Personally, I will accept a return of a CGC book as long as the book has NOT been removed from the slab.Once it is removed it is essentially no longer what I sold. I think the refusal by some to accept returns on CGC is because of the perceived agreement to accept the third party assessment of the book's condition. It isn't quite the same as buying the raw book that is definitely subject to debate. I think many sellers are reluctant to have their money tied up while a buyer cherry picks undergraded books, which I can understand. I just think the benefits of good customer relations makes the return of even the CGC book a good idea...... and most customers aren't going to "game the system" with CGC returns. However, it's not my place to dictate someone else's return policy, as long as it is clearly stated. As for "item not as described", if you order CGC and you get CGC, that argument is ludicrous, in my opinion. The purchase of the CGC item, to me, is an implied agreement to abide.GOD BLESS...

 

-jmbo(a friend of jesus)

 

I think this is the key thing. If somebody buys something from me, I'd like him to buy again. That's not likely if I hassle him about a return. If somebody gets a book and decides that a crease on the cover looks worse in hand than in my scan, or a stain seems more prominent, then I would rather them send it back--on my dime--than stew about it and write me off as a seller.

 

Now if I sell a raw book and somebody gets it graded and the grade turns out way higher than I advertised, well the only honest thing is for the buyer to return the book to me.

[Mystafo]

Now if I sell a raw book and somebody gets it graded and the grade turns out way higher than I advertised, well the only honest thing is for the buyer to return the book to me.

 

Haha, I concur!

[N/A]

 

In general, I don't get the "no return" policy. Majority of us pays via PayPal. I'm not sure if a "no-return" stipulation in a chat forum's sales thread can override PayPal's buyer protection program. My return policy in my sales threads has always been per PayPal Policy.

 

As far as I understand grading is an opinion (professional, in case of CGC). An opinion can vary from one person to another. If the buyer is determined to return a graded book (comes up with an intellectual case, quantifies the defects, etc.), PayPal may side with the buyer.

 

I could be wrong so I'm curious to read you guy's opinion on this....

 

To such a buyer who would claim Item Not as Described on a forced paypal return on a CGC graded book, I'd say congrats on your return and the result of it also being your last purchase on the forum. No one would ever sell to someone who did a Not as Described return on a slab.

 

The only reason someone would have for a return of a slabbed book is if there is a defect on the front or back cover that is not visible in the photo/scan. I've purchased a graded book that when it arrived looked super tan. I was unhappy but bit the bullet and resold it (with tanning disclosed).

 

+1. The unspoken rule here is that if you buy a slab and it arrives in fine shape, then there's no justification for a return. People make exceptions and work things out with sellers but the unwritten rule is "hey if are into the whole buying CGC books, then you're cool with CGC grades, so no futzing about condition discrepancies, this isnt eBay." If someone pushes a return using PayPal's policy, then that buyer will either end up on the probation list (for non-completion of a transaction), or just end up on everyone's personal "No Fly" list.

 

I will say I've done a cgc return many years ago. The book was very tanned once I received it, and when I looked at the pictures the book looked very different. I never made an accusation but I think the scan/photo was "sweetened" to downplay the tanning. I told the seller it was too tan for my tastes in hand and we did a return (I ate the return shipping costs). He didn't balk at the return which was good on him, but I think it also might have been because he knew he had sweetened the scans.

 

Which is why the idea of forcing sellers to have a return policy only complicates matters. Does it override Paypal's policy? If you return an item to a seller with no returns then are you eligible for the PL?

 

Personally I offer returns for any reason since I am not here to force books on anyone. I do like to know why and have assumed people are honest since I accept returns under any condition. I also like to know just encase there is a reason I would adjust my selling or return practices. I think a seller is encouraging dishonesty by refusing returns. Oops! Cracked slab!

 

And my 50,000 post is more than just an emoticon.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Junk Donkey

[rodan57]

I think the refusal by some to accept returns on CGC is because of the perceived agreement to accept the third party assessment of the book's condition. It isn't quite the same as buying the raw book that is definitely subject to debate. I think many sellers are reluctant to have their money tied up while a buyer cherry picks undergraded books, which I can understand. I just think the benefits of good customer relations makes the return of even the CGC book a good idea...... and most customers aren't going to "game the system" with CGC returns.

 

I think this is the key thing. If somebody buys something from me, I'd like him to buy again. That's not likely if I hassle him about a return. If somebody gets a book and decides that a crease on the cover looks worse in hand than in my scan, or a stain seems more prominent, then I would rather them send it back--on my dime--than stew about it and write me off as a seller.

 

One of the reasons I brought the issue up was what I thought was a common sense argument --- that defects can look different when a book is held up close and that when selling long distance one should be sensitive to scans and photos not being full communicators of information. Our own grading forum makes that a core tenet of its approach to grading.

 

I know that when I grade a raw book in my collection, I look at the book and a scan of the book to be sure I am not missing anything. It's actually quite common that the scan either reveals or hide flaws.

 

 

 

[Number 6]

I think the refusal by some to accept returns on CGC is because of the perceived agreement to accept the third party assessment of the book's condition. It isn't quite the same as buying the raw book that is definitely subject to debate. I think many sellers are reluctant to have their money tied up while a buyer cherry picks undergraded books, which I can understand. I just think the benefits of good customer relations makes the return of even the CGC book a good idea...... and most customers aren't going to "game the system" with CGC returns.

 

I think this is the key thing. If somebody buys something from me, I'd like him to buy again. That's not likely if I hassle him about a return. If somebody gets a book and decides that a crease on the cover looks worse in hand than in my scan, or a stain seems more prominent, then I would rather them send it back--on my dime--than stew about it and write me off as a seller.

 

One of the reasons I brought the issue up was what I thought was a common sense argument --- that defects can look different when a book is held up close and that when selling long distance one should be sensitive to scans and photos not being full communicators of information. Our own grading forum makes that a core tenet of its approach to grading.

 

I know that when I grade a raw book in my collection, I look at the book and a scan of the book to be sure I am not missing anything. It's actually quite common that the scan either reveals or hide flaws.

 

 

 

When you return a CGC book for this reason who, in your opinion, should pay the shipping cost?

[crassus]

I think the refusal by some to accept returns on CGC is because of the perceived agreement to accept the third party assessment of the book's condition. It isn't quite the same as buying the raw book that is definitely subject to debate. I think many sellers are reluctant to have their money tied up while a buyer cherry picks undergraded books, which I can understand. I just think the benefits of good customer relations makes the return of even the CGC book a good idea...... and most customers aren't going to "game the system" with CGC returns.

 

I think this is the key thing. If somebody buys something from me, I'd like him to buy again. That's not likely if I hassle him about a return. If somebody gets a book and decides that a crease on the cover looks worse in hand than in my scan, or a stain seems more prominent, then I would rather them send it back--on my dime--than stew about it and write me off as a seller.

 

One of the reasons I brought the issue up was what I thought was a common sense argument --- that defects can look different when a book is held up close and that when selling long distance one should be sensitive to scans and photos not being full communicators of information. Our own grading forum makes that a core tenet of its approach to grading.

 

I know that when I grade a raw book in my collection, I look at the book and a scan of the book to be sure I am not missing anything. It's actually quite common that the scan either reveals or hide flaws.

 

 

 

I agree completely, in fact there is no objective view of the book possible, as every way of viewing reveals/conceals/distorts, and even if CGC were indeed by its grading a true "Universal" standard, it would only be possible to verify that outside the holder.

 

Once a book is slabbed it is no more obvious what it is than if it were raw, and probably less so. The real difference I agree is whether the item can be examined first hand. In that sense what matters more is that this is mail order and not a first hand examination of the item. For that reason I would think return policies, within reason of course, should be generous.

[jimjum12]

I think the refusal by some to accept returns on CGC is because of the perceived agreement to accept the third party assessment of the book's condition. It isn't quite the same as buying the raw book that is definitely subject to debate. I think many sellers are reluctant to have their money tied up while a buyer cherry picks undergraded books, which I can understand. I just think the benefits of good customer relations makes the return of even the CGC book a good idea...... and most customers aren't going to "game the system" with CGC returns.

 

I think this is the key thing. If somebody buys something from me, I'd like him to buy again. That's not likely if I hassle him about a return. If somebody gets a book and decides that a crease on the cover looks worse in hand than in my scan, or a stain seems more prominent, then I would rather them send it back--on my dime--than stew about it and write me off as a seller.

 

One of the reasons I brought the issue up was what I thought was a common sense argument --- that defects can look different when a book is held up close and that when selling long distance one should be sensitive to scans and photos not being full communicators of information. Our own grading forum makes that a core tenet of its approach to grading.

 

I know that when I grade a raw book in my collection, I look at the book and a scan of the book to be sure I am not missing anything. It's actually quite common that the scan either reveals or hide flaws.

 

 

 

I agree completely, in fact there is no objective view of the book possible, as every way of viewing reveals/conceals/distorts, and even if CGC were indeed by its grading a true "Universal" standard, it would only be possible to verify that outside the holder.

 

Once a book is slabbed it is no more obvious what it is than if it were raw, and probably less so. The real difference I agree is whether the item can be examined first hand. In that sense what matters more is that this is mail order and not a first hand examination of the item. For that reason I would think return policies, within reason of course, should be generous.

 

 

[rodan57]

I think the refusal by some to accept returns on CGC is because of the perceived agreement to accept the third party assessment of the book's condition. It isn't quite the same as buying the raw book that is definitely subject to debate. I think many sellers are reluctant to have their money tied up while a buyer cherry picks undergraded books, which I can understand. I just think the benefits of good customer relations makes the return of even the CGC book a good idea...... and most customers aren't going to "game the system" with CGC returns.

 

I think this is the key thing. If somebody buys something from me, I'd like him to buy again. That's not likely if I hassle him about a return. If somebody gets a book and decides that a crease on the cover looks worse in hand than in my scan, or a stain seems more prominent, then I would rather them send it back--on my dime--than stew about it and write me off as a seller.

 

One of the reasons I brought the issue up was what I thought was a common sense argument --- that defects can look different when a book is held up close and that when selling long distance one should be sensitive to scans and photos not being full communicators of information. Our own grading forum makes that a core tenet of its approach to grading.

 

I know that when I grade a raw book in my collection, I look at the book and a scan of the book to be sure I am not missing anything. It's actually quite common that the scan either reveals or hide flaws.

 

 

 

When you return a CGC book for this reason who, in your opinion, should pay the shipping cost?

 

The buyer both ways. There is no misrepresentation involved.

 

[jimjum12]

I think the refusal by some to accept returns on CGC is because of the perceived agreement to accept the third party assessment of the book's condition. It isn't quite the same as buying the raw book that is definitely subject to debate. I think many sellers are reluctant to have their money tied up while a buyer cherry picks undergraded books, which I can understand. I just think the benefits of good customer relations makes the return of even the CGC book a good idea...... and most customers aren't going to "game the system" with CGC returns.

 

I think this is the key thing. If somebody buys something from me, I'd like him to buy again. That's not likely if I hassle him about a return. If somebody gets a book and decides that a crease on the cover looks worse in hand than in my scan, or a stain seems more prominent, then I would rather them send it back--on my dime--than stew about it and write me off as a seller.

 

One of the reasons I brought the issue up was what I thought was a common sense argument --- that defects can look different when a book is held up close and that when selling long distance one should be sensitive to scans and photos not being full communicators of information. Our own grading forum makes that a core tenet of its approach to grading.

 

I know that when I grade a raw book in my collection, I look at the book and a scan of the book to be sure I am not missing anything. It's actually quite common that the scan either reveals or hide flaws.

 

 

 

When you return a CGC book for this reason who, in your opinion, should pay the shipping cost?

 

The buyer both ways. There is no misrepresentation involved.

 

[Number 6]

I think the refusal by some to accept returns on CGC is because of the perceived agreement to accept the third party assessment of the book's condition. It isn't quite the same as buying the raw book that is definitely subject to debate. I think many sellers are reluctant to have their money tied up while a buyer cherry picks undergraded books, which I can understand. I just think the benefits of good customer relations makes the return of even the CGC book a good idea...... and most customers aren't going to "game the system" with CGC returns.

 

I think this is the key thing. If somebody buys something from me, I'd like him to buy again. That's not likely if I hassle him about a return. If somebody gets a book and decides that a crease on the cover looks worse in hand than in my scan, or a stain seems more prominent, then I would rather them send it back--on my dime--than stew about it and write me off as a seller.

 

One of the reasons I brought the issue up was what I thought was a common sense argument --- that defects can look different when a book is held up close and that when selling long distance one should be sensitive to scans and photos not being full communicators of information. Our own grading forum makes that a core tenet of its approach to grading.

 

I know that when I grade a raw book in my collection, I look at the book and a scan of the book to be sure I am not missing anything. It's actually quite common that the scan either reveals or hide flaws.

 

 

 

When you return a CGC book for this reason who, in your opinion, should pay the shipping cost?

 

The buyer both ways. There is no misrepresentation involved.

 

Personally, I have absolutely no problem with that. If a buyer contacted me and wanted to a return a CGC due to personal disagreement/disappointment with CGC's grading and was willing to pay all shipping costs, I would be more than willing and would gladly do business with them again.

 

I think the problem is that the majority of buyers - particularly on eBay - expect to do this sort of thing all on the sellers dime. That's where the rub comes in.

 

You what know gets me about the whole "no returns on CGC books"? Like I said, I could kind of see why a seller would be disinclined to want to take returns on 3rd party graded books.

 

But it's the whole tradition of providing only a front cover scan, usually the size of a playing card - or sometimes no scan at all. Especially considering they're expecting a premium price for a CGC book, you'd think it wouldn't be exceptional to expect a back cover scan too

 

You combine the front-scan-only tradition with the no-CGC-returns tradition, that's an annoying combo.

[Sqeggs]

I think the refusal by some to accept returns on CGC is because of the perceived agreement to accept the third party assessment of the book's condition. It isn't quite the same as buying the raw book that is definitely subject to debate. I think many sellers are reluctant to have their money tied up while a buyer cherry picks undergraded books, which I can understand. I just think the benefits of good customer relations makes the return of even the CGC book a good idea...... and most customers aren't going to "game the system" with CGC returns.

 

I think this is the key thing. If somebody buys something from me, I'd like him to buy again. That's not likely if I hassle him about a return. If somebody gets a book and decides that a crease on the cover looks worse in hand than in my scan, or a stain seems more prominent, then I would rather them send it back--on my dime--than stew about it and write me off as a seller.

 

One of the reasons I brought the issue up was what I thought was a common sense argument --- that defects can look different when a book is held up close and that when selling long distance one should be sensitive to scans and photos not being full communicators of information. Our own grading forum makes that a core tenet of its approach to grading.

 

I know that when I grade a raw book in my collection, I look at the book and a scan of the book to be sure I am not missing anything. It's actually quite common that the scan either reveals or hide flaws.

 

 

 

When you return a CGC book for this reason who, in your opinion, should pay the shipping cost?

 

The buyer both ways. There is no misrepresentation involved.

 

 

Cheap arse!

[Chip Cataldo]

I take returns on anything for whatever reason. I just think it's good customer service, but that's just me. I want people to be happy if they give me their business.

[slym2none]

And my 50,000 post is more than just an emoticon.

 

Posts 38,000 to 49,000 are a different story, however.

 

 

 

 

-slym