(attempted) Flip of the Day! 12 12

[KirbyCollector]

On 7/1/2023 at 1:57 PM, Aahz said:

Interesting how they got the nose of the wolf to be over the logo.

It looks so nice I wonder who handled the restoration. It's still not $9,000 nice, though.

[Rick2you2]

On 7/1/2023 at 1:57 PM, Aahz said:

Interesting how they got the nose of the wolf to be over the logo.

How does someone fix a missing corner like that?

[MyNameIsLegion]

this has Donnely's written all over it....they consigned another fake stat and overlay special (allegedly) - effectively laundered this fraud through HA like they've been doing for the past 5 years (allegedly), where the auction house effectively obscures all provenance so that wary buyers WHO KNOW BETTER or just plain ignore any and all Donnely art. unknowingly pay for this fake. IF the name of the consigner was known in most auctions (like they are with BIG consigners (from the Estate of... from the Collection of....where it's a selling point) these would get a lot fewer bids. HA is effectively a co-conspirator (allegedly). They aren't that stupid, (allegedly?!?!?) and ignorance is not a defense.

Edited July 3, 2023 by MyNameIsLegion

[Dirtcheap31]

On 7/3/2023 at 5:54 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

this has Donnely's written all over it....they consigned another fake stat and overlay special (allegedly) - effectively laundered this fraud through HA like they've been doing for the past 5 years (allegedly), where the auction house effectively obscures all provenance so that wary buyers WHO KNOW BETTER or just plain ignore any and all Donnely art. unknowingly pay for this fake. IF the name of the consigner was known in most auctions (like they are with BIG consigners (from the Estate of... from the Collection of....where it's a selling point) these would get a lot fewer bids. HA is effectively a co-conspirator (allegedly). They aren't that stupid, (allegedly?!?!?) and ignorance is not a defense.

How is this HA a co conspirator they call out every aspect from stat to restoration I think they did a great job letting the buyer know what they are getting… I would say you can’t get much more transparent 

[EXPhysiker]

eBay endprice for 4 pieces: $195, now for $850 at Anthony’s comicbook art. But these page are nothing special, I collect a lot of Witchblade art. 

[Aahz]

On 7/3/2023 at 11:20 AM, Dirtcheap31 said:

How is this HA a co conspirator they call out every aspect from stat to restoration I think they did a great job letting the buyer know what they are getting… I would say you can’t get much more transparent 

I wish there was a way to preserve this information going forward.  after a few years in the wild, this will be forgotten.

[grapeape]

On 6/24/2023 at 5:03 PM, artdealer said:

Well, after all it is Federico Bettini. 

 

On 6/24/2023 at 5:03 PM, artdealer said:

Well, after all it is Federico Bettini. 

And in fairness, he has the rare opportunity of going for a piece on Heritage. How often do those opportunities come along?

[Noob19]

On 7/3/2023 at 6:10 PM, Aahz said:

I wish there was a way to preserve this information going forward.  after a few years in the wild, this will be forgotten.

It's horrendous. If I paid a dealer $9k for this piece and then found out the history soon after I'd want my money back...

[AnkurJ]

On 6/29/2023 at 4:52 AM, Kryptic1 said:

Seems like the standard Dueling Dealers markup these days:

It will sell on the site…

[KirbyCollector]

On 7/4/2023 at 6:51 AM, AnkurJ said:

It will sell on the site…

[Dirtcheap31]

On 7/3/2023 at 3:10 PM, Aahz said:

I wish there was a way to preserve this information going forward.  after a few years in the wild, this will be forgotten.

HA keeps their history and descriptions live for ever it seems

[Aahz]

On 7/4/2023 at 10:26 AM, Dirtcheap31 said:

HA keeps their history and descriptions live for ever it seems

1) If it sells through Heritage; and/or
2) It hasn't been fixed previously.

Now I am happy to admit that the restoration looks really, really good.  Whoever did it looks to have done a great job, and I also would love to know who it is.  I am also all for (within reason) restoring pieces to bring them back to "original" condition ... ie, taking out the browning/glue stains; fixing replacing word balloons, dealing with water damage, etc.  However, it should be documented and move with the provenance of the piece.  Maybe this is what NFTs could be good for.

[lobrac]

Val Mayerik and Vince Colletta FRANKENSTEIN #12 pages 6-7 sold June 21, 2023 on HA for $432

https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/story-page/val-mayerik-and-vince-colletta-frankenstein-12-story-pages-6-7-original-art-marvel-1974-/a/322325-48171.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515

Now $1,100

https://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=1936366

 

[grapeape]

On 6/29/2023 at 4:08 AM, KirbyCollector said:

Edit:

WTH is this picture of Gene doing in this post? 

[MyNameIsLegion]

On 7/4/2023 at 10:44 AM, Aahz said:

1) If it sells through Heritage; and/or
2) It hasn't been fixed previously.

Now I am happy to admit that the restoration looks really, really good.  Whoever did it looks to have done a great job, and I also would love to know who it is.  I am also all for (within reason) restoring pieces to bring them back to "original" condition ... ie, taking out the browning/glue stains; fixing replacing word balloons, dealing with water damage, etc.  However, it should be documented and move with the provenance of the piece.  Maybe this is what NFTs could be good for.

 

On 7/4/2023 at 10:26 AM, Dirtcheap31 said:

HA keeps their history and descriptions live for ever it seems

and this is precisely my point- once it's been washed and rinsed through HA, and oh so vaguely detailed (we don't know who, what, or MOST IMPORTANTLY WHEN) the art was restored, if in fact it was a prelim, alternate cover, or just a random pin-up or commission marketed as having something to do with a PUBLISHED piece which is the defining attribute of OA that gets a $$$ premium. There's nothing to corroborate any of it, no COA, just that it was in a HA auction once.  Maybe a better sleuth could find some digital trail of it being listed by the Donnely's at some point, but they might have actually gotten smarter and never posted it FS online for that very reason. Just how much responsibility does the auction house have as to the authenticity of the consigned object? Sotheby's and Christie's seem to assume more when questions have come up with fakes or things that had questionable ownership title, and cooperate with investigations by Interpol and other law enforcement (think WW2 Nazi art theft and antiquities that were stolen from Irag or elsewhere) but HA is probably NOT asking too many questions on purpose for the nascent comic book art market. 

Edited July 5, 2023 by MyNameIsLegion

[Aahz]

On 7/4/2023 at 9:19 PM, lobrac said:

Val Mayerik and Vince Colletta FRANKENSTEIN #12 pages 6-7 sold June 21, 2023 on HA for $432

https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/story-page/val-mayerik-and-vince-colletta-frankenstein-12-story-pages-6-7-original-art-marvel-1974-/a/322325-48171.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515

Now $1,100

https://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=1936366

 

That Wrightson piece on his CAF also looks very familiar.

[MyNameIsLegion]

what was I just saying about eh Donnely's manufacturing fake cover art to sell? 

Edited July 7, 2023 by MyNameIsLegion

[Rick2you2]

On 7/7/2023 at 8:07 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

what was I just saying about eh Donnely's manufacturing fake cover art to sell? 

I get what you are saying. But what you are also doing is questioning the way OA is priced.
Nothing in the ad is false that I can see. Was it unpublished? Yes. Does it say so? Yes. Was it restored, and does it say so? Yes.
Excluding the restoration part, how is this different, really, then a piece of art in a beautiful frame? Over the years, I have picked up a few pieces in which the frame is better than the art. Nicely decorative, good for offices.
I still remember passing on a page about 6 months ago that I would have bought, except that the Phantom Stranger’s image was a stat. Otherwise, it was just some nicely drawn regular people from the early 70’s. Not worth my investment.

Which brings me to my point. Trade dress, or anything besides the actual pencils and inks shouldn’t affect value, even if it does. A restoration should effect value, but maybe, not so much. Next time you see something like this, treat it as slightly better a sketch, as the original seller did. 

[Aahz]

Leaving aside the specific cost/value of a piece.  My issue is with the (for lack of a better term) provenance and description.  With the unpublished Conan cover, after changing hands a few times, will it be noted that it is restored and by how much?  This should be indicated by every seller.  Also, again, regardless of price, trade dress in some ways legitimizes the older pieces.

[MyNameIsLegion]

On 7/7/2023 at 4:17 PM, Rick2you2 said:

I get what you are saying. But what you are also doing is questioning the way OA is priced.
Nothing in the ad is false that I can see. Was it unpublished? Yes. Does it say so? Yes. Was it restored, and does it say so? Yes.
Excluding the restoration part, how is this different, really, then a piece of art in a beautiful frame? Over the years, I have picked up a few pieces in which the frame is better than the art. Nicely decorative, good for offices.
I still remember passing on a page about 6 months ago that I would have bought, except that the Phantom Stranger’s image was a stat. Otherwise, it was just some nicely drawn regular people from the early 70’s. Not worth my investment.

Which brings me to my point. Trade dress, or anything besides the actual pencils and inks shouldn’t affect value, even if it does. A restoration should effect value, but maybe, not so much. Next time you see something like this, treat it as slightly better a sketch, as the original seller did. 

Umm, have you been collecting OA for the last 20 years? The number of prototype covers, prelims, alternate covers, cover layouts, cover proposals, and every possible way of suggesting the item being offered in someway was involved in the production of the actual published cover at the time it was originally produced. Never is it simply described as a cover recreation. Why do you think that is? Because “recreation” is a second rate collectible, and doesn’t get a fraction of the price of the published comic art. The Donnelly’s have been fraudulently presenting for sale art that has zero connection with the creation, production, or printing of the original cover. These are pinups or commissions created years or decades later that they are doctoring with fake trade dress. They price it as if it were a true alternative cover rejected by Stan or Carmine or the like, as if it had some legitimate provenance ( from the Marvel or DC archives, or the artists portfolio. It’s textbook fraud. HA becomes an unwitting accessory by obscuring who is the consignor. A seasoned OA collector won’t touch any of this nonsense on CAF, but consigning it anonymizes the piece, such that someone less experienced could be duped to pay a premium for something that’s junk.

Edited July 8, 2023 by MyNameIsLegion