(attempted) Flip of the Day! 12 12

[Noob19]

On 7/7/2023 at 9:51 PM, MyNameIsLegion said:

but consigning it anonymizes the piece, such that someone less experienced could be duped to pay a premium for something that’s drunk. 

This seems spot on... I would have been fooled.

[Rick2you2]

On 7/7/2023 at 9:51 PM, MyNameIsLegion said:

Umm, have you been collecting OA for the last 20 years? The number of prototype covers, prelims, alternate covers, cover layouts, cover proposals, and every possible way of suggesting the item being offered in someway was involved in the production of the actual published cover at the time it was originally produced. Never is it simply described as a cover recreation. Why do you think that is? Because “recreation” is a second rate collectible, and doesn’t get a fraction of the price of the published comic art. The Donnelly’s have been fraudulently presenting for sale art that has zero connection with the creation, production, or printing of the original cover. These are pinups or commissions created years or decades later that they are doctoring with fake trade dress. They price it as if it were a true alternative cover rejected by Stan or Carmine or the like, as if it had some legitimate provenance ( from the Marvel or DC archives, or the artists portfolio. It’s textbook fraud. HA becomes an unwitting accessory by obscuring who is the consignor. A seasoned OA collector won’t touch any of this nonsense on CAF, but consigning it anonymizes the piece, such that someone less experienced could be duped to pay a premium for something that’s drunk. 

Of course I understand the different pricing values placed on prelim’s, rejected covers, etc., What I was doing was pointing out that your criticism is directed, in part, at the way OA is priced, not that one doesn’t exist. That’s a different point. In my opinion, there should be pricing for published and unpublished, period. In baseball, a strikeout has the same effect as a ground out on the game, with only the personal batter’s statistics affected. A rejected cover, preliminary, etc., ought to be treated in the same way: quality of workmanship. A published piece is a hit. The fact that the piece, without trade dress, was considered and rejected is an interesting historical fact, but I think it is overvalued as a marker in the hobby. Regardless as to the changes, what would, say, a high quality commission from the artist be worth at the time it was done? I don’t follow this market, but $700 seems a bit low. Adding in the cost of labor and materials for trade dress (like adding a frame to a picture) doesn’t sound like a $4,000 piece to me, but I didn’t buy it. And when I have bought unpublished pieces, it is usually because I can’t find something published by the artist with the desired subject matter. But that’s my preference, other people obviously have different values. So yes, I do understand your anger. 

[MyNameIsLegion]

Ah ok @Rick2you2 then I think we are more on the same page then. It is precisely because the Donnelly’s price things implying “strikes” of some variety merit partial credit in the form of a rejected or prelim cover price bump versus an unpublished commission. What’s so egregious is they are hitting a T-ball 5-10 years after the game and claiming it’s a game winning home run. Just in the last day of discussing this subject offline, multiple seasoned collectors have related anecdotes of Steve D’s borderline pathological efforts to defraud potential buyers with fake covers and vehemently defend their justification in attributing as such and their price bump. 

Edited July 8, 2023 by MyNameIsLegion

[MyNameIsLegion]

On 7/7/2023 at 9:38 PM, Noob19 said:

This seems spot on... I would have been fooled.

Thank you, that is precisely my point- HA provides safe harbor for the Donnelly’s to peddle these fakes. They’re not stupid, Jim knows who they are, so does Joe. They just don’t care enough to ask too many questions or be more precise in their listings. If it was a Monet, don’t think Sotheby’s or Christie’s wouldn’t authenticate it 6 ways to Sunday first and still have insurance in case things go sideways after the fact. 

[vodou]

On 7/8/2023 at 8:17 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

If it was a Monet, don’t think Sotheby’s or Christie’s wouldn’t authenticate it 6 ways to Sunday first and still have insurance in case things go sideways after the fact. 

They’re definitely careful with marquee brands like Picasso, Monet, Warhol, etc. But…the blind-eye stories are quite numerous too especially when the subject was looted antiquities with fully fabricated provenance.

[MyNameIsLegion]

On 7/8/2023 at 8:44 AM, vodou said:

They’re definitely careful with marquee brands like Picasso, Monet, Warhol, etc. But…the blind-eye stories are quite numerous too especially when the subject was looted antiquities with fully fabricated provenance.

Quite true - there was a prominent forger in the last couple of years that painted hundreds of fakes that were sold by the big auction houses to museums and private collectors. The extent of his crimes are so massive that they will never fully ferret out all his forgeries. In fact, too many probably prefer NOT to know, as their leveraged net worth and reputations and insurance premiums would suffer mightily. Everyone is in on it that isn’t a documented victim. People suck. 

[Rick2you2]

On 7/8/2023 at 8:05 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

Ah ok @Rick2you2 then I think we are more on the same page then. It is precisely because the Donnelly’s price things implying “strikes” of some variety merit partial credit in the form of a rejected or prelim cover price bump versus an unpublished commission. What’s so egregious is they are hitting a T-ball 5-10 years after the game and claiming it’s a game winning home run. Just in the last day of discussing this subject offline, multiple seasoned collectors have related anecdotes of Steve D’s borderline pathological efforts to defraud potential buyers with fake covers and vehemently defend their justification in attributing as such and their price bump. 

And they are already bumping from high level. About 2 years ago, I won a half story from one book, and was always looking for the other half. What I won was 8 pages for about $3,500. Naturally, the Donnellys got hold of a page from the second half. Only $2,150. Such a bargain.💩

[Hockeyflow33]

On 7/4/2023 at 12:05 PM, KirbyCollector said:

One of the more brilliant ideas of the French state was to allow heirs to donate an important artist's property to the nation in lieu of paying taxes, thus we can visit the preserved homes of Rodin,  Monet, Delacroix and many other artists and view their works in the settings in which they were created (and in some cases, stand in the actual studios). It is a shame this was not done for Schulz's home.

 

On 7/8/2023 at 1:16 PM, Rick2you2 said:

And they are already bumping from high level. About 2 years ago, I won a half story from one book, and was always looking for the other half. What I won was 8 pages for about $3,500. Naturally, the Donnellys got hold of a page from the second half. Only $2,150. Such a bargain.💩

I have a similar story where I had a couple pages from 6-8page story in a 90's annual, not big name artists, and they had two. I paid like $100 bucks give or take per page through auctions and when I reached out the pages through them were like $3,500. Other pages from the series still sell in the $200-300 range  

[Kryptic1]

Bill: “Two dealers will present art that is either new to the market or priced to sell”

Mike & Anthony: LOL

[KirbyCollector]

On 7/13/2023 at 5:22 PM, Kryptic1 said:

Bill: “Two dealers will present art that is either new to the market or priced to sell”

Mike & Anthony: LOL

[Rick2you2]

On 7/13/2023 at 5:52 PM, KirbyCollector said:

I’d price it to sell at that price too. 

[Microchip]

On 7/14/2023 at 7:22 AM, Kryptic1 said:

Mike & Anthony: LOL

The new title for this thread?

[AnkurJ]

Sold at heritage in November. Now for sale at SDCC with your “friendly neighborhood art dealer” for 60k. 

Edited July 21, 2023 by AnkurJ

[jjonahjameson11]

Offered on Panel Page earlier this year for $19.5K.

sold in the June HA auction for 8.4K

[Kryptic1]

Bill could bring in the Donnellys for Dueling Dealers and I’m not sure I would notice a difference.

 

[Dr. Balls]

I don't know what I think about that Batgirl. I don't want to run it down, but if Dustin Nyguyen sold that for $800...he was very fortunate.

Someone outed Mike in the chat for buying a Pat Broderick Conan page for less than $800 (best offer taken on Ebay) and marking it up to $1700. It was awkwardly funny because the guy said he just blurted it out and didn't mean to cause an issue.

 

[Dirtcheap31]

Hey it’s public knowledge I think it’s great for transparency 

[KirbyCollector]

The joke is Mike and Anthony have priced things so high on the show no one bites at first, giving everyone time to run some searches or wait for someone to pop in with price discovery. If they actually priced things better, someone would claim quicker and no one would be the wiser. 

[Microchip]

On 7/28/2023 at 11:09 AM, KirbyCollector said:

The joke is Mike and Anthony have priced things so high on the show no one bites at first, giving everyone time to run some searches or wait for someone to pop in with price discovery. If they actually priced things better, someone would claim quicker and no one would be the wiser. 

Even the newb's must wisen up quickly 

There's no way the reputation for these guys 200-300% mark-up isn't common knowledge in the wider CAF community?

[BVladimirHarkonnen]

On 7/27/2023 at 9:09 PM, KirbyCollector said:

The joke is Mike and Anthony have priced things so high on the show no one bites at first, giving everyone time to run some searches or wait for someone to pop in with price discovery. If they actually priced things better, someone would claim quicker and no one would be the wiser. 

I think that may be part of the more recent behavior. Claims would fly in due to the FOMO but now collectively it's a marathon rather than a race. 

So you take the chance and really upsell, you'll only need a few bites to offset a whole stack potentially.