Incredible Hulk #181 - is it *that* red-hot? 17 17

[Pantodude]

Continued skepticism regarding current valuations does not suprise me.  But let's try to add some objectivity to this old (and I do mean OLD) warehouse rumor.

This decades-old rumor resurfaces every few years, most recently during the years just before the pandemic, and usually coinciding with an uptick in IH181 values.  And after each time, it became less and less plausible that these rumored hoarders would have ignored the opportunity, time and time again, decade after decade, to sell their IH181s for a tidy profit.  If these supposed hoarders with cases of IH181 have not sold already, then what the heck are they waiting for!   As in the mid-2000s (if I recall correctly), just FOUR years ago we thought IH181 couldn't go any higher, and yet here we are again.  Any rational hoarder would have sold a substantial portion (if not all) of any stash years ago, and if not, then certainly by 2017.  And taken to the extreme, if these rumored hoarders haven't sold their stash by now, then we can assume that they never will or at least not all at once  If so, the rumored stash will likely remain IRRELEVANT to the supply/demand equation for this book, especially considering how old these rumors are.   

At this point, the warehouse rumor (and make no mistake about it -- a rumor is all it has ever been for how many decades now?) could sound like sour grapes.  I wouldn't go that far.  With all the strangeness of the past year, I can't blame people for being more cautious and skeptical regarding valuations of all books, not just this one.  But as with some other vintage keys, it really could be as simple as this.  The ship truly has sailed for some folks to acquire this book in higher grades.  Perhaps we should just leave it at that?  That said, I wouldn't mind too much if a stash were found because I always enjoy treasure-find stories!     

Edited May 9, 2021 by Pantodude

[Randall Ries]

1 hour ago, Pantodude said:

At this point, the warehouse rumor (and make no mistake about it -- a rumor is all it has ever been for how many decades now?) could sound like sour grapes.  I wouldn't go that far.  With all the strangeness of the past year, I can't blame people for being more cautious and skeptical regarding valuations of all books, not just this one.  But as with some other vintage keys, it really could be as simple as this.  The ship truly has sailed for some folks to acquire this book in higher grades.  Perhaps we should just leave it at that?  That said, I wouldn't mind too much if a stash were found because I always enjoy treasure-find stories!     

Right on. I only first heard the rumor earlier this year. No idea it was decades old. It's intriguing. Many rumors are based in some sort of fact. I have to agree with your assessment, though. The knee jerk to sell them rapidly at any given price jump point would probably have been tough to ignore.

I LOVE those stories where a fresh, gigantic collection of books are found. The only thing I DON'T like is that I wasn't the one who found them.

[Mjolnir!]

31 minutes ago, Randall Ries said:

Right on. I only first heard the rumor earlier this year. No idea it was decades old. It's intriguing. Many rumors are based in some sort of fact. I have to agree with your assessment, though. The knee jerk to sell them rapidly at any given price jump point would probably have been tough to ignore.

I LOVE those stories where a fresh, gigantic collection of books are found. The only thing I DON'T like is that I wasn't the one who found them.

You mean WE.....we were not the ones who found them. 

[Randall Ries]

3 hours ago, Mjolnir! said:

You mean WE.....we were not the ones who found them. 

 

[MGsimba77]

On 5/8/2021 at 9:46 PM, The Lions Den said:

To be honest, Hulk #181 is probably the most common comic book from that era that I've ever seen. It's like they did a triple print run just for the occasion...

This question of how many 181s were printed has been brought up a number of times on these boards and probably on this thread. I don't think the exact number is ever disclosed by the publishers or printers. I've read the estimate of 200k tossed around here in the past which is not much different than standard in 1974 unless I'm mistaken? I agree with the view often expressed here that the reason for the availability stems from demand not a higher print run. There are some older boardies who posted about unsold copies being returned to the publisher as was standard back in the day so take that for whatever its worth. Maybe there are a few older guys on this thread who can shed a little light on whether this book flew off the shelves causing marvel to burn out the printing press? I'd say anecdotal reports from comic readers/collectors back then are way more important than subjective estimates of today based on cgc submissions. 

[MGsimba77]

It be most helpful btw if we had a definitive print run # of Marvel DC comics from all vintages! Just like it would be to have cgc breakout PQ information in the census....but that's another story 

[mcduckz]

On 5/8/2021 at 8:14 PM, Randall Ries said:

More power to the buyers of IH 181. I don't hope it crashes in value. I just don't understand why people would shell out that kind of dough for a common book. I really think it's the buyers who are causing the price spikes. Not the book itself. It's a bandwagon book.

I don't disagree with your overall post, but IH181 is only common in context to SA and GA keys.  Yeah, there are quite a few, even in higher grades, but the number of collectors and investors in the hobby has grown by leaps and bounds the last 2 decades.  There is decidedly a more diverse and more international fanbase than ever before and it seems only to grow with every new movie.  Also, I firmly believe prices are most heavily driven by nostalgia.  People want to own key issues of what they remember enjoying as children.  Well, all the folks who were kids when the first X-Men movies came out are now hitting that age where they have plenty of expendable funds.  Couple these factors with renewed speculation due to movie rumors and, BAM, prices jump.  Suddenly those "common" books start to disappear.

Edited May 10, 2021 by mcduckz

[alexgross.com]

@Randall Ries you do seem to hope for a hulk 181 crash, you've been talking this book down for as long as i've noticed you on the boards. 

it'd be great if you'd move on now. your opinion seems to be based on nothing other than the fact that there are a lot of copies of this book out there. 

here's a thread (page 3 specifically) from 6 years ago, guy here bought a 9.6 copy for around 6k, a record high at the time. at about 30k now, he's quintupled his investment. whether or not we see a market correction this year, hulk 181 has proven, beyond a doubt, that it continues to be the #1 most desired bronze age comic bar none. supply AND demand.  please let all the dozens of boardies that keep telling you you're wrong argue about something more interesting now, like which issue is logans 1st appearance.

https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/topic/351529-the-hulk-181-club/page/3/#comments

 

Edited May 10, 2021 by alexgross.com

[mcduckz]

1 hour ago, alexgross.com said:

here's a thread (page 3 specifically) from 6 years ago, guy here bought a 9.6 copy for around 6k, a record high at the time. at about 30k now, he's quintupled his investment.

 

To further reinforce this, that is 25-30% per year ROI.  That's better return on investment than many other things over the last 6 years.  If only all our favorite issues had that sort of appreciation!

Edited May 10, 2021 by mcduckz

[miscus555]

181 could go down...the Venom 2 trailer just dropped. Maybe people will start flocking to the ultra plentiful ASM361 for Carnage's FA  now

 

[Randall Ries]

3 hours ago, alexgross.com said:

@Randall Ries you do seem to hope for a hulk 181 crash, you've been talking this book down for as long as i've noticed you on the boards. 

it'd be great if you'd move on now. your opinion seems to be based on nothing other than the fact that there are a lot of copies of this book out there. 

here's a thread (page 3 specifically) from 6 years ago, guy here bought a 9.6 copy for around 6k, a record high at the time. at about 30k now, he's quintupled his investment. whether or not we see a market correction this year, hulk 181 has proven, beyond a doubt, that it continues to be the #1 most desired bronze age comic bar none. supply AND demand.  please let all the dozens of boardies that keep telling you you're wrong argue about something more interesting now, like which issue is logans 1st appearance.

https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/topic/351529-the-hulk-181-club/page/3/#comments

 

Sorry, man. I have also mentioned I do NOT "want" it to crash nor do I hope it to. I don't WANT people to lose money at all. Especially these days. I AM trying to point out that it is TOO MUCH money to pay for such a plentiful book. THAT is my OPINION. I feel the BUYERS are driving the prices up. Not a specific rarity of other books and pieces we see being sold and collected.

I would still love to see a graph of those who collect the book because they are Wolverine fans VS those who have a lot of cash and are simply buying it like a hedge fund. Bet the latter is greater than the former. When other things in other markets rise as sharply and as quickly as this book has, there is always a crash. I'm sorry, but I don't believe for a moment that in the last 2-3 years, there has suddenly been a huge demographic of people who suddenly sat bolt upright and said "Oh, MAN. I GOTTA get me an IH 181 and cost be jiggered!" You know?

As far as the other stuff? I have an opinion and I will voice it, thanks very much. I don't think I have ever got into someones face like you just did and told them to shut up about their viewpoint. Not here or in real life. If you can't hack it, then you know my name. Just don't read my posts.

[Randall Ries]

5 hours ago, mcduckz said:

I don't disagree with your overall post, but IH181 is only common in context to SA and GA keys.  Yeah, there are quite a few, even in higher grades, but the number of collectors and investors in the hobby has grown by leaps and bounds the last 2 decades.  There is decidedly a more diverse and more international fanbase than ever before and it seems only to grow with every new movie.  Also, I firmly believe prices are most heavily driven by nostalgia.  People want to own key issues of what they remember enjoying as children.  Well, all the folks who were kids when the first X-Men movies came out are now hitting that age where they have plenty of expendable funds.  Couple these factors with renewed speculation due to movie rumors and, BAM, prices jump.  Suddenly those "common" books start to disappear.

I understand and agree. This book is different now in that it hasn't been the span of decades. It's been the span of 2-5 years when suddenly this book hit the gas to unreasonable $$ heights while still having plenty of issues to go around.

Also, I have been told I was "wrong" for suggesting movies and tv are driving the pricing up. I am not wrong. Marvel is killing it with quality product and halfway decent writing with electronic media. Of course people are going to gravitate toward whatever they just saw on the big screen.

And the words "Market" and "Speculation" keep getting bandied about. Which suggests to me it is no longer about the love of a certain title or character, but about trying to invest in hopes of a payday. Saying it's all about the 1st appearance of Wolverine is a polite way to try to shield people from recognizing their own greed and investment fervor. The number of people buying this book out of l0ve for the characters vs buying it in hopes of a quick and big payday are I imagine 75% Big Payday - 25% I want this book for the book itself.

And that is the way I collect. I still collect for the want of a certain artist, writer or character. I was put off by Wolverine a long time ago in the 1970's and just was not interested. I had an IH 182. Does that count? I liked Hammer and Anvil. LOL!

If given a choice between Avengers 4 or IH 181? AV4 all day. Every Day. Every way.

But FEAR NOT! I am usually wrong about this kind of thing. My opinion or viewpoint never counts for much. And in the instances I was right all along, people find a way to rationalize their way out of it. And the world keeps turning. And perhaps my opinion on this matter is borne along by my actual hope that collectors DON'T get burned. Myself, I hate getting burned by the people or things that I have feelings for.

[Archaeos]

13 minutes ago, Randall Ries said:

I would still love to see a graph of those who collect the book because they are Wolverine fans VS those who have a lot of cash and are simply buying it like a hedge fund. Bet the latter is greater than the former.

Or option 3 which is a little of both.....a huge wolverine fan so has it and has no plan on selling it, but also happy in knowledge that god forbid I ever need money desperately I have something I can generate cash reasonable quick. 

[Randall Ries]

1 minute ago, Archaeos said:

Or option 3 which is a little of both.....a huge wolverine fan so has it and has no plan on selling it, but also happy in knowledge that god forbid I ever need money desperately I have something I can generate cash reasonable quick. 

Yup! That's reasonable. I imagine that number is much smaller but sure. To tell the truth, the only way my wife is comfortable with me buying books is I presented them to her as an "investment opportunity". What she DOESN'T realize is I have no intention of selling them. Well, ONCE I did. A nice Bat #3 in CGC 8.5. She had a tumor in the middle of her pancreas, needed surgery and I panicked about meeting payroll. So, yes. I was GLAD I owned the book. Was SAD when the dust settled it turned out I didn't really need to sell it. I did what I felt was right just in case. But that was a Bat #3. Not an IH 181 with a zillion copies flying around.

[I am not Glenda]

It's really simple when you get past all the BS posted on here Wolverine has been and continues to be a fan favorite, I grew up watching his popularity grow from Claremont/Byrne cult status ( unless you read comics in 1982 you had no idea who the hell he was) to Millers masterpiece to BWS amazing origin and so on right up to him become the main character in just about all the X men movies for the past 20 years! He is a very lucrative property & world wide phenomenon & on par with all but a handful of comic characters. If you don't dig his "freaky claws" & bad attitude " just walk away" no big deal, it's ok if continue to think there are to many #181 for the market to continue to grow whatever turns you on. But the fact is the little short guy with the bad temper is going to be around a lot longer then most of us & I would bet my hard earned cash on a guy named Logan any day. On a serious side note the day #181 drops 50% is the day almost all comic books collectors/investors have a real problem. 

[Randall Ries]

16 minutes ago, I am not Glenda said:

It's really simple when you get past all the BS posted on here Wolverine has been and continues to be a fan favorite, I grew up watching his popularity grow from Claremont/Byrne cult status ( unless you read comics in 1982 you had no idea who the hell he was) to Millers masterpiece to BWS amazing origin and so on right up to him become the main character in just about all the X men movies for the past 20 years! He is a very lucrative property & world wide phenomenon & on par with all but a handful of comic characters. If you don't dig his "freaky claws" & bad attitude " just walk away" no big deal, it's ok if continue to think there are to many #181 for the market to continue to grow whatever turns you on. But the fact is the little short guy with the bad temper is going to be around a lot longer then most of us & I would bet my hard earned cash on a guy named Logan any day. On a serious side note the day #181 drops 50% is the day almost all comic books collectors/investors have a real problem. 

Sure enough. I was just wondering how many people buy the book as a fan and how many are buying the book as a property. Of course Wolverine isn't going anywhere. Never doubted his pop.

 

[Mjolnir!]

2 hours ago, Randall Ries said:

Sure enough. I was just wondering how many people buy the book as a fan and how many are buying the book as a property. Of course Wolverine isn't going anywhere. Never doubted his pop.

 

Good question. 

I bought the book because it's considered to be one of the top 3 trilogy Marvel BA books which include GS X-1 and X94. I just wanted to finally be able to have a piece of history that changed the comic industry forever.

But when I bought those books I never ever imagined they would have increased in value like they have. But then again there are a lot of books that have skyrocketed that were considered "common" so you may have a point, people are buying them for the sole point of flipping them.

Because I don't need the money I haven't bothered to slab books.  But man this really is an awesome sellers market and I wonder if I should just sell.  Not the top BA books I just mentioned but all the others.  We may in the "peak golden time" seller's market right now.

Just so many books at record levels right now.  How can this be?  The spike is unbelievable.      

[spracknetch23]

I only bought IH 181 because I was trying to complete a Hulk run. That’s also the only reason I bought 271. I’m sure I’m in the monitory here. 

[Randall Ries]

1 hour ago, Mjolnir! said:

Good question. 

I bought the book because it's considered to be one of the top 3 trilogy Marvel BA books which include GS X-1 and X94. I just wanted to finally be able to have a piece of history that changed the comic industry forever.

But when I bought those books I never ever imagined they would have increased in value like they have. But then again there are a lot of books that have skyrocketed that were considered "common" so you may have a point, people are buying them for the sole point of flipping them.

Because I don't need the money I haven't bothered to slab books.  But man this really is an awesome sellers market and I wonder if I should just sell.  Not the top BA books I just mentioned but all the others.  We may in the "peak golden time" seller's market right now.

Just so many books at record levels right now.  How can this be?  The spike is unbelievable.      

Agreed. You see, I quit collecting comics in 1988 or so. Got back into it lightly in 2010. i buy the books I love. DC, really. I have ONE Marvel comic book. The recent Immortal Hulk 22. The one with the so-called "woke" Jewish jab.

Nevertheless, I missed a lot over the years. What I haven't missed is the gradual climb in prices of IH 181. Sure. Makes sense. X-men and the Wolvie movies brought the character into a better view of the masses.

But in the last year and a half or so, suddenly it hit the gas and went straight up. No movies. No special comic book series. Just suddenly a lot of people with a lot of money started buying them. Then, it seemed like people saw the activity and panic bought to a degree. Wanted to get in on it before they were "All Gone". And the prices kept going up. STILL going up.

I considered buying one a couple years ago. They were within reach. In high grade. Now, they are not. Not for me. And I am not interested enough in the character to knock myself out.

So, sure. You COULD sell and keep your keys. I'll keep mine because I actually love the books. They mean something to me beyond money. It's nice they have some value but when I think about selling, I think "Well? NOW all I have is money. Meh."

But you would know far better than me when it's time to sell. And I am sure you are in a better position to suppose what is the larger demographic buying this book. The flippers? Or the lovers of the character? I think the people who want to buy it AND love the character is a pretty thin slice. I have a feeling it's pretty much one or the other. If it's people wanting to flip or the actual economy goes REALLY wonky, there will be a mass selloff and the market will become a buyers market. To me, this happened way too fast.

[piper]

I finally broke down and bought a copy of this common key (CGC 8.5) at the encouragement (continued insistence) of @Artboy99 a few years ago.  I should have bought 10 copies.