They're Still Out There! 22 22

[buttock]

24 minutes ago, Scrooge said:

You know, the more I think about this, the more amazing it gets. Let everyone of us think back to the time we picked up books on the newsstands. The idea we could pick half of the new books on the shelf is just ridiculous, esp. when you think that this was a newsstands circa 1949 -

The same can be said of the Church collection. A couple of years ago, I ran down and cleaned the list of all Church books with their CGC grades for a project for Rob. The sheer amount of books does not sink in until you are in the data and then the relentless list of titles, mainstream and obscure, with full run in the Church collection is right in your face. The breadth of what was bought is astounding.

 

It's a remarkable collection, a remarkable find, and something that we should be celebrating.  Even if you have no interest in bidding, it's something that's great for the hobby as a whole.  

[PopKulture]

2 hours ago, buttock said:

It's a remarkable collection, a remarkable find, and something that we should be celebrating. 

Then why am I not happy?  

For starters, I will never own a single one of these books. I may as well try to find happiness in the fact that as a dutiful art lover I should be pleased-as-punch that Stephen Cohen and David Geffen get to trade $100 million dollar paintings. Or as a once-a-month poker player that there's a new super-swank casino opening in the south of France with the coolest card room ever that I'll never step foot in.

But more than that is the fact that I belong to a hobby that is split - who knows if it's down the middle? - on whether or not it's good stewardship to take what are likely in many cases to be the best copies in existence and F with them: errrr, I mean, maximize them. 

I get it: leave no money on the table, bla bla bla. The long term effects cannot be known, but are often dismissed with a wave of the proverbial hand. The short term risks, however infrequent the damage, are obvious from some of the scans already posted. Ergo, someone cannot say pressing carries no risk. So maybe I'd like to see one of the largest conduits of books for the hobby take the lead and stop codifying faulty stewardship and this reflexive malpractice. They'd still get record prices across the board and if someone wants to CPR one of these treasures down the road, then that would be on them. Stop doing it at the institutional level!  

Respectfully yours,

Grumpy old man 

Edited May 11, 2021 by PopKulture

[sfcityduck]

1 hour ago, pemart1966 said:

The cost of 5000 books was a fortune at that time for a lot of families.

The world had just come out of a decade long economic depression and was immediately plunged into a world war.  A lot of families had their main bread winner go overseas not knowing:  a) for how long; b) whether or not he would even return; c) if he did return whether he'd be able to find work or be physically able to work again.

Money was tight during those times for the majority of folks.  Of course, there are always exceptions.

 

I think there were more exceptions than folks sometimes realize.  Comics were a form of entertainment on par with t.v. and video games today.  5,000 comics was $500 dollars new.  Spread over more than ten years, as the Promise collection is, we're talking around $50 a year on average ($4.11 a month).  I'm sure the volumes purchased increased as kids got older and maybe got jobs (so less a month early on and more later).  Many many kids had comic collections, that's why many GA comics are relatively common today despite that huge number of collections that were tossed out by parents, recycled, etc.  For example:

* Edgar Church (20,000 books 1930s to 1950s) was an artist who worked for the telephone company.

* Lamont Larson (1,000 books 1936-1940) was a middle class kid in Nebraska.

* The OO of the Chinatown collection (1,300 books late 40s to early 50s) worked as a cook on a Ferry boat.

* Leroy Mackie and his brother (Cooktown - 5,000 comics, late 30s to early 50s) were also, I believe, middle class kids.

And we know of other big collections, some dispersed and others still intact, which are not "pedigrees" (yet):

* Dave Wigransky (5,000+ comics from 1941-1948) was a middle class kid in D.C.

* Bangzoom's WTG (2,500 comics late 1930s to early 1940s) was a middle class kid in D.C.

And, of course, we have the examples of the first generation collectors, including those who founded fandom or became prominent in SF (like Roy Thomas, Jerry Bails, Don Thompson, Harlan Ellison, etc.) who all assembled massive collections as kids, many of which were dispersed before pedigrees became a thing.  Don't get me wrong, some of them may well have come from well to do families.  Which just shows that kids collecting comics spanned the demographics.

And, most importantly, they were passionate.  Kids had a lot options for their dimes, but some clearly chose comics over most of those other options.

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by sfcityduck

[buttock]

2 minutes ago, PopKulture said:

Then why am I not happy?  

 

If this doesn't make you happy as a hobbyist, then I can't answer that for you.  I readily find happiness in others' good fortune, give it a try.

[Badger]

16 hours ago, october said:

This thread has not been a total loss. Not going to let something called "Godzilla in Hell" go by without adding it to the reading list.

Can't say I recommend it. Love Godzilla but this was 

[Gotham Kid]

10 hours ago, Crowzilla said:

Now that they have nearly 300 of them on the HA website

can we assume the best (and most valuable) books of the collection are being offered in this auction and that we can derive maybe 70-80% of total collection worth at end of the auction ?

Edited May 11, 2021 by Gotham Kid

[Mmehdy]

10 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Hey Mitch;

Since we seen so many examples of the former to date so far, I was wondering if you could please do a public service to all the collectors here by posting us some examples of the latter that we can go after.  

 

we have over 5000 GA books to go thru, talk to me after 2500 have been graded and sold as you cannot make a total judgement on the grading of the collection until we see at least 50% of the books out in the open. That would be the fairest way to make a judgment on this collections overall grading.

[jimjum12]

4 minutes ago, Gotham Kid said:

can we assume the best (and most valuable) books of the collection are being offered in this auction and that we can derive maybe 70-80% of total collection worth at end of the auction ?

I believe that thinking is on point for the most part ... but I might place that percentage at 60%. One thing I notice with selling a collection, the little books often surprise you.... and these are pedigree. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Mmehdy]

11 minutes ago, Gotham Kid said:

can we assume the best (and most valuable) books of the collection are being offered in this auction and that we can derive maybe 70-80% of total collection worth at end of the auction ?

No, Ha has a tendency to spread things out pretty evenly...I would say great books will appear even in the last promise auction. You can take for example the "Kirby Cofer" Carl Barks painting collection, which was the largest Carl Barks oil painting  collection ever to come to market and auctioned by Ha.com. They spread the good stuff over 3 auctions. We will see great GA books till the end on this one.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Mmehdy

[lou_fine]

1 hour ago, jcjames said:

Were these all pressed? 

No idea why you would be asking me since I am a collector who prefers to keep all of my books raw and don't participate in this whole grading fiasco and CPR game that's taking place.  

Better to ask the parties that's actually involved such as the gang over at Heritage, the boys over at CGC and CCS, and possibly the consignors although I suspect they (sad to say) just might not know what's being done to Junie's much loved and treasured books that he had asked his brother and family to take care of and which they very obviously and lovingly did for the past 75 years.  

Edited May 11, 2021 by lou_fine

[Inaflash]

32 minutes ago, PopKulture said:

Then why am I not happy?  

For starters, I will never own a single one of these books. I may as well try to find happiness in the fact that as a dutiful art lover I should be pleased-as-punch that Stephen Cohen and David Geffen get to trade $100 million dollar paintings. Or as a once-a-month poker player that there's a new super-swank casino opening in the south of France with the coolest card room ever that I'll never step foot in.

But more than that is the fact that I belong to a hobby that is split - who knows if it's down the middle? - on whether or not it's good stewardship to take what are likely in many cases to be the best copies in existence and F with the them: errrr, I mean, maximize them. 

I get it: leave no money on the table, bla bla bla. The long term effects cannot be known, but are often dismissed with a wave of the proverbial hand. The short term risks, however infrequent the damage, are obvious from some of the scans already posted. Ergo, someone cannot say pressing carries no risk. So maybe I'd like to see one of the largest conduits of books for the hobby take the lead and stop codifying faulty stewardship and this reflexive malpractice. They'd still get record prices across the board and if someone wants to CPR one of these treasures down the road, then that would be on them. Stop doing it at the institutional level!  

Respectfully yours,

Grumpy old man 

I agree with you on the premise that pressing every book as standard practice, especially an original owner collection like this, is not in the best interest of the hobby. I can't speak for other collectors but I would prefer to see these books sold as discovered and let the buyer decide whether to press or not. In fact I would be thrilled if these books were auctioned raw but I know maximizing profit will never let that happen.

Ken

[Crowzilla]

14 minutes ago, Mmehdy said:

No, Ha has a tendency to spread things out pretty evenly...I would say great books will appear even in the last promise auction. You can take for example the "Kirby Cofer" Carl Barks painting collection, which was the largest Carl Barks oil painting  collection ever to come to market and auctioned by Ha.com. They spread the good stuff over 3 auctions. We will see great GA books till the end on this one.

Can't believe I am saying this, but I agree with Mitch.

For example in the Detectives, they list 166 and 167 (as well as a smattering of earlier issues), but I'm guessing the 168 will be a star of a future auction (if it's in there). I'm certain there will be great items in every signature auction for the next year.

[Robot Man]

2 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

No idea why you would be asking me since I am a collector who prefers to keep all of my books raw and don't participate in this whole grading fiasco and CPR game that's taking place.  

Better to ask the parties that's actually involved suc as the gang over at Heritage, the boys over at CGC and CCS, and possibly the consignors although I suspect they (sad to say) just might not know what's being done to Junie's much loved and treasured books that he had asked his brother and family to take care of and which they very obviously and lovingly did for the past 75 years.  

Watch it Lou... You’re beginning to sound like a “real comic collector” and a “grumpy old man”...

[Mmehdy]

51 minutes ago, PopKulture said:

Then why am I not happy?  

For starters, I will never own a single one of these books. I may as well try to find happiness in the fact that as a dutiful art lover I should be pleased-as-punch that Stephen Cohen and David Geffen get to trade $100 million dollar paintings. Or as a once-a-month poker player that there's a new super-swank casino opening in the south of France with the coolest card room ever that I'll never step foot in.

But more than that is the fact that I belong to a hobby that is split - who knows if it's down the middle? - on whether or not it's good stewardship to take what are likely in many cases to be the best copies in existence and F with the them: errrr, I mean, maximize them. 

I get it: leave no money on the table, bla bla bla. The long term effects cannot be known, but are often dismissed with a wave of the proverbial hand. The short term risks, however infrequent the damage, are obvious from some of the scans already posted. Ergo, someone cannot say pressing carries no risk. So maybe I'd like to see one of the largest conduits of books for the hobby take the lead and stop codifying faulty stewardship and this reflexive malpractice. They'd still get record prices across the board and if someone wants to CPR one of these treasures down the road, then that would be on them. Stop doing it at the institutional level!  

Respectfully yours,

Grumpy old man 

I understand where you are coming from but I think there is hope some at the end of the tunnel.

There are over 5000 books from this collection, you should be able to get one, you could sell some dupes or sell material in your collection to help get at least one. Ha will give you an advance on your consignment so that you can actuality bid on the first auction where it is to their weekly auction or Signature. Just set a goal..one book, one giant step for "mankind". Owning one is just like owning 50..you own a part of history.

I agree the Ga/SA comic books worlds are "split" but you should be able to navigate thru the speculators, whales, investor dealers who are gonna buy and hold, to get a very small piece of this historic collection. We are divided and if this was a Billy Wright 367 book collection, you are right, you could get shut out on it all. But this 15 Billy Wright collections coming over a two year period in 2021 and 2022...so don't give up hope on this. Every collector should have a shot at the minimum of a couple of books here.

Yes, they are might be pressed or maximized, but I would hope you would buy the book for the comic book itself and not for the fact that you can not resubmit after you have CGC pressing it as it has already been done.

I am against any form of alteration of the original comic book, especially pressing. I agree 100% it can cause damage both to the book and the overall  GA/SA comic book market. I think your observation is one of the best future thinking ahead posts placed  this form in a long time.  Your question is will all future mega collections follow the same pattern from here on out with these incredible results, and  with the 3 mega giant auction houses and have every book that is consigned to them go thru this pressing press for GA comic books. It is dangerous and it is for the long term of the hobby something that is gonna catch up with US you and me as Ga/SA comic book collectors. I think the gravity of the greed or the power of making more money is a tough thing to stop. The only think you and I can do, is say no to our collections, to collectors who seek out our advice.

Good Luck G.O.M.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Mmehdy

[PopKulture]

45 minutes ago, buttock said:

If this doesn't make you happy as a hobbyist, then I can't answer that for you.  I readily find happiness in others' good fortune, give it a try.

Okay, I'll try my best to be happy if you concede there's nothing altruistic going on here.  

Good fortune, you say? Are these books being handed out at a children's hospital or something? No, the same old big money machine is revving up and many thousands of dollars will be flying around wildly, and 99.9% of the people who enjoy comics will never hold one of these books in their hands much less own one, and then on the back end there will be even more excitement and money flying around when the powers-that-be offer micro-trimming or some such "service" and the cycle starts anew...

It's not sour grapes: I'm really, really content as a hobbyist with my crappy old Four Colors at ten bucks apiece. It's not at all about the have's and the have-not's. I don't hate Elon whether he's worth a million or two hundred billion on a given day. More than anything, I just hate the entrenched malpractice we're seeing perpetrated here. 

Edited May 11, 2021 by PopKulture

[cheetah]

42 minutes ago, buttock said:

If this doesn't make you happy as a hobbyist, then I can't answer that for you.  I readily find happiness in others' good fortune, give it a try.

Heck, I’m not even collecting at the moment and I’ve had plenty of oohs and aahs over these books. Can’t wait to see more of them and get vicarious thrills watching this thread devolve into mayhem.

[lou_fine]

On 5/10/2021 at 6:43 AM, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

On 5/10/2021 at 6:04 AM, Comcav said:

https://bleedingcool.com/comics/the-promise-collection-one-of-the-greatest-comic-finds-of-all-time/

Ah, the backstory finally. And as we suspected, someone didn’t come back from war. 

Definitely a touching and sentimental story that will pull at the heartstrings of some, but for us comic book collectors, sort of a repeat of the Tom Reilly story with the San Francisco pedigree collection of GA books.  

As for Junie's name, when I read it in the attached article, the first thing that came to my mind was this comic book here:    

Edited May 11, 2021 by lou_fine

[N e r V]

22 hours ago, MrBedrock said:

Mitch, the problem with your definition is that if those older collectors "who have a emotional connection to our great GA/SA world" truly felt that way then why are they overwhelmingly the ones who try to beat comic dealers up on price? If they truly felt that way then money should be no object.

Well you’ve obviously have never had to maintain a trophy wife (GF) who eats $100. Omakase like my dogs eat treats and washes it down with 2015 Opus One wine like it’s water, or who needs to replace $2500. Prada purses like I replace socks, or takes $$$spa days whenever she can. Want to try and make my monthly on her 2016 Bugatti Chiron???
 

Is it any wonder some of us are searching our pockets for change as we pay you for our “funny books” at shows? 
 

Seriously everyone looks for a bargain and some dealers are so jaded it’s fun to f*** with them having known the feeling myself of being on the receiving end of a low ball. It’s just business and doesn’t hurt to say yes or no to any offer.

You’re so damn tall though I’d fear the momentum your hand might have on a downward swing towards my head so you sir get full price every time…

[Chief1332]

I think there were more exceptions than folks sometimes realize.  Comics were a form of entertainment on par with t.v. and video games today.  5,000 comics was $500 dollars new.  Spread over more than ten years, as the Promise collection is, we're talking around $50 a year on average ($4.11 a month).  I'm sure the volumes purchased increased as kids got older and maybe got jobs (so less a month early on and more later).  Many many kids had comic collections, that's why many GA comics are relatively common today despite that huge number of collections that were tossed out by parents, recycled, etc.  

 

 

Wondering if only the immediate family was buying the books...  Were purchases assisted by more extended family members...  Did the local community help out at all...  Having a family member serving in the 40-50's was absolutely no joke.  Todays military is so different.  Looking forward to hearing the entire story as told my family members if possible.

[sfcityduck]

30 minutes ago, Gotham Kid said:

can we assume the best (and most valuable) books of the collection are being offered in this auction and that we can derive maybe 70-80% of total collection worth at end of the auction ?

No. I think it is pretty transparent what they have done.  It's looking more representative, albeit designed to impress, than a "best books first" approach.  They are heavy on superheros (which includes Phantom Lady), and lighter on the non-superhero genre.  But the DC and Timely runs are just excerpts. The next biggest genre is, I think, SF.  Lighter on PCH. Collection may not include romance, Dell, westerns, or strip reprints.  We all know of books that are desirable and valuable in the 1943 to 1950 core time period not posted so far, and the pre-1943 time period is barely represented (although 3.5 CA 1 is one of the bigger books).  So I think there will be exciting and valuable books in later auctions.