They're Still Out There! 22 22

[lou_fine]

16 hours ago, Mmehdy said:

That is a real issue Lou...will the crazy speculators go after the "finest" condition wise GA OO collection..................

......................I do not think they are that smart or want to put the time and effort it is to do the necessary research to figure out that All Winners #21 9.8 is priceless and it is.

All-What?????  

WTF.........are you one of these Grumpy Old Men hiding down in your basement with those old smelly books from way back in the Stone Ages?  

Get with it, old man.............it's now the 21st century and the crypto generation where it's all about treasures like Transformers, Shogun Warriors, Rom, TMNT's, Adolescent Radioactive Black Belt Hamsters, Geriactric Gangrene Jujitsu Gerbils, Kung-Fu Kangaroos, etc.  

All.....WTF was it again...........oh yes...........All Losers #21.      

[Robot Man]

34 minutes ago, jimjum12 said:

People are going to look at the scan and bid accordingly ... People with that type of juice are usually astute. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo (a friend of Jesus)

Experienced collectors and dealers will. But they are probably going to get out bid hard by those with more money than experience. This auction is set up that way and hitting at the perfect time for the house. 

You are going to, like no other time, have to choose wisely and be prepared to pay a lot more than you ever had to to land your prize...

[Robot Man]

Vinney and the Fish must be dying right now...

[jimjum12]

This is just how I feel, and this is not directed at any one person ... but when I hear complaints about grading inconsistency from CGC I tend to ignore them unless they are coming from someone who is cracking a LOT of slabs .... the slab covers a multitude of sins and amplifies others. I especially disregard grading critiques that are based on a scan of a slab. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Edited May 13, 2021 by jimjum12

[jimjum12]

4 minutes ago, Robot Man said:

Experienced collectors and dealers will. But they are probably going to get out bid hard by those with more money than experience. This auction is set up that way and hitting at the perfect time for the house. 

You are going to, like no other time, have to choose wisely and be prepared to pay a lot more than you ever had to to land your prize...

We may have to settle for that issue of HELLO PAL. 

GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Robot Man]

Just now, jimjum12 said:

We may have to settle for that issue of HELLO PAL. 

GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Even that will probably be out of reach for most. I predict a lot of kids looking in the front window of the candy store...

[buttock]

1 hour ago, Badger said:

I think its impossible to control rumors even inside CGC. So, a grader is looking at a few hundred high(est) grade comics and I'm sure there is awareness of what it is and where it came from. That is very different from being instructed to grade lightly. One is a natural outcome of an office environment and the other is felony fraud and racketeering. People are conflating actual criminal activity with grading fatigue and enthusiasm. It would be tough for anyone who loves comics to grade a high number of these comics in a row and not have their grades slip here and there. It would also be impossible to not have the memory of these books in your mind when some poor slob's submission come through next and gets hammered on the grade.

The stock market is due for a correction and the inflation rate, reported tomorrow, may cause it to come to fruition. Still, there is literally an extra trillion dollars in our economy right now and that money has to go somewhere. 

Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence.  

[lou_fine]

17 hours ago, szav said:

I'm currently more inclined to think this is the story of a dealer/collector who got a hold of these books some years or decades ago, and that the family of the OO is long since removed from what's going on right now.

 

11 hours ago, jimbo_7071 said:

I think you hit the nail on the head.

I'm not sure how long they've been out of the picture, though. It could be a case where they recently shopped the collection to an LCS owner who said, "These are wonderful books, so I'm going to offer you top dollar for them—$50,000 for the whole collection," and the elderly brother accepted the offer, thinking it generous.

Well, if it's not yet past the Statute of Limiations and depending upon the state where this supposed transaction took place, I could definitely see a lawsuit coming up, especially considering how legal-centric things are when it comes to matters like this.  

If rumours are indeed true, it sounds as though even Chuckles was involved in a lawsuit with the Church family which he won simply because they never asked him for his "expert" opinion on the value of the collection or for an offer on the books.  Apparently, the Church family asked Chuck for a certain amount of money to remove the books from the house (i.e. estimated 20,000 X 10 cents full brand new cover price to this know nothing hippie kid who we can hose for these old used books here = $2,000  ) and Chuckles simply accepted their offer even though he initially didn't even have that much money in the first place.  

In your above scenario, if it was the LCS owner that had come up with the "top dollar offer price", my bet is that the family would end up winning the lawsuit if this case was still within its legal rights to go to court.  

I highly doubt this would be the scenario here since I am quite sure that both Heritage and CCG would need to know the full background story on this collection to ensure that they do not get themselves entangled in a twisted legal web, and one that would hurt their business reputation going forward.  Then again, you never really know for sure when its big big money involved like this.    

[MasterChief]

3 hours ago, Badger said:

Just curious, but when you say things like this do you envision Jim Halperin walking the halls of CGC and saying, "That's a mighty fine book you're grading there. Be a shame if it were to be less than, oh say, a 9.8." How, exactly, do you think CGC lets the graders know that they should be lenient on a certain number of books? Is the grading carde marked? Does an email go out? Team meeting? Do you envision a tell-all book detailing all of the shady practices?

The conflict-of-interest accusations between Heritage and CGC are largely based on Jim Halperin's shady past in the rare coin world (grading and auctioning), which eventually led to run-ins with postal inspectors and the Federal Trade Commission. You can read about it in this Forbes article from 2004:

Top Drawer
by Christopher Helman, Forbes Staff

"Halperin, 52, is also probably the most controversial professional numismatist of all time. He has had brushes with postal inspectors, the Federal Trade Commission and coin dealers who have sued him for, among other things, sticking them with inflated prices. But then this is a profession that attracts controversy. With an estimated 130,000 U.S. collectors trading $5 billion worth of coins a year, the opportunity for mischief is considerable. A coin's value is exquisitely sensitive to how well it's preserved, and grading is highly subjective."

https://www.forbes.com/forbes/2004/1227/156.html?sh=617d33d82e07

[Flex Mentallo]

24 minutes ago, buttock said:

Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence.  

Incompetent gossip?

[Badger]

1 minute ago, MasterChief said:

The conflict-of-interest accusations between Heritage and CGC are largely based on Jim Halperin's shady past in the rare coin world (grading and auctioning), which eventually led to run-ins with postal inspectors and the Federal Trade Commission. You can read about it in this Forbes article from 2004:

Top Drawer
by Christopher Helman, Forbes Staff

"Halperin, 52, is also probably the most controversial professional numismatist of all time. He has had brushes with postal inspectors, the Federal Trade Commission and coin dealers who have sued him for, among other things, sticking them with inflated prices. But then this is a profession that attracts controversy. With an estimated 130,000 U.S. collectors trading $5 billion worth of coins a year, the opportunity for mischief is considerable. A coin's value is exquisitely sensitive to how well it's preserved, and grading is highly subjective."

https://www.forbes.com/forbes/2004/1227/156.html?sh=617d33d82e07

I am aware. Did you see Halperin's response to the Forbes' article? 

What Forbes didn't tell you.

 

[sfcityduck]

1 hour ago, szav said:

Good points, I can see both sides of the debate.  I do wonder, though I’ll admit to not having researched it thoroughly, is CGC subject to any regulatory authority or do they have any accreditation or inspection of their business practices?  Likewise interested to know the same for the big auction houses.  It could go along way towards alleviating some of the suspicions.

CGC is only subject to regulation by its customers.  And, despite its name, it does not guarantee anything, including the accuracy of its grading.

[MasterChief]

6 minutes ago, Badger said:

I am aware. Did you see Halperin's response to the Forbes' article? 

What Forbes didn't tell you.

 

Yes. And thanks for that. That was my next post.

[adamstrange]

6 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

CGC is only subject to regulation by its customers.  And, despite its name, it does not guarantee anything, including the accuracy of its grading.

 

[sfcityduck]

2 minutes ago, adamstrange said:

 

I stand corrected:  They guarantee three things:  (1) The comic (except ashcans which they will no longer grade) is genuine (e.g. not a counterfeit, unless it is a genuine counterfeit), (2) the comic is viewed is inspected by "a minimum of one pre-grader and two graders", and (3) "CGC will not be financially responsible for damage that occurs to the book while not in our possession."  Which amounts to essentially not guaranteeing anything important unless you are concerned about counterfeits.

[Badger]

13 minutes ago, adamstrange said:

 

Interestingly, the labels on CGC's new cases do not contain any fine print other than to visit CGC's website for current terms. Reading the terms, you are referred to the sites Guarantee Page which states: I wonder why CGC guarantees trading cards as not being over-graded but not comic books?

The CGC Guarantee

Subject to the terms, conditions, and limitations specified below, a CGC-certified comic book, magazine, lobby card, concert poster, print/sketch/photograph, or trading card (e.g., Pokémon or Magic: The Gathering card) (each, a “Collectible”) encapsulated in a CGC holder is guaranteed as follows:

Type of Collectible	What is Guaranteed
Comic books, magazines, lobby cards, and concert posters (non-CGC Signature Series) (excluding collectibles encapsulated in the red CGC Memorabilia Label)	The Collectible has been inspected by at least two (2) professionals The Collectible is authentic
CGC Signature Series (any label) comic books, magazines, and concert posters	The Collectible has been inspected by at least two (2) professionals The Collectible is authentic The designated witnessed signature(s) on the Collectible are authentic (Note: In the case of the yellow / green CGC Signatures Series Qualified Label, this Guarantee does not apply to any unwitnessed signatures.)
CGC Signature Series (any label) prints, sketches, and photographs	The Collectible has been inspected by at least two (2) professionals The designated witnessed signature(s) on the Collectible (BUT NOT the Collectible itself) are authentic (Note: In the case of the yellow / green CGC Signature Series Qualified Grade Label, this Guarantee does not apply to any unwitnessed signatures.)
Trading Cards	The Collectible has been inspected by at least two (2) professionals The Collectible is authentic The Collectible has not been overgraded (meaning it is not graded higher than CGC Trading Cards’ Grading Standards) (Exception: Grade is not guaranteed for trading cards encapsulated with CGC Trading Cards’ green Qualified Grade Label.)

Edited May 12, 2021 by Badger

[sfcityduck]

For comics, that is a simpler way of saying what they said on the label, which, again, is we guarantee it is not a counterfeit.  Except that, they'll guarantee a counterfeit is an authentic counterfeit over and over and over and over and over:

Edited May 12, 2021 by sfcityduck

[Badger]

2 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

For comics, that is a simpler way of saying what they said on the label, which, again, is we guarantee it is not a counterfeit.  Except that, they'll guarantee a counterfeit is an authentic counterfeit over and over and over and over and over:

That may be a rare book now. I do not think CGC encapsulates known counterfeits anymore.

[lou_fine]

28 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

CGC is only subject to regulation by its customers.  And, despite its name, it does not guarantee anything, including the accuracy of its grading.

I always have a good laugh as I always found it rather ironic and totally contradictory whenever I think about this.     

[lou_fine]

8 hours ago, buttock said:

8 hours ago, tabcom said:

I wondered what would happen if I ran this comic without a label through the graders at:

Hey buddy can you spare a grade . . .

 

Expand  

Hey, since I love playing games..........................then how about this already gorgeous sure to be highest graded copy by a long shot:    

 

How much unnecessary work will they still try to do on this already "no more need for improvement" book here and how high into the 9's will they dare to be brave enough to score this book here, given it's rather obvious spine and corner issues and the fact that Lon had made the Corporate mistake of pre-emptively providing a scanned copy of the raw book here?   

Edited May 12, 2021 by lou_fine