Are prices still climbing or have they eased up a bit??? 43 43

[thehumantorch]

On 1/23/2022 at 8:49 AM, DavidTheDavid said:

Right, legal there, and one thing to consider is that they have piles of data to sift through in order to maximize the practice. Just broad bidding patterns alone would indicate which books to shill bid.

They also know our 'Secret Maximum Bid'.

[MAR1979]

On 1/23/2022 at 12:32 PM, thehumantorch said:

They also know our 'Secret Maximum Bid'.

More than a decade back a comic art collecting friend (acquaintance)  of mine decided to bid on 1970's Charlton cover that was ALL STAT.  He merely wanted some of stats as he could use them on a cover he had that lacked them. He decided $40 was worth it for those.

He accidentally bid $400!  Realizing to his horror it woudl be bid up to the MAX by the auction house themselves, he contacted Heritage immediately via phone call and email and explained the accidental zero added to his bid.  At the start of the phone call he let the CSR know he was recording the call for potential future legal action.  Eventually he got to one of the senior-ish people at Heritage, still they were not willing to alter or cancel his errant bid.

Sure enough the auction ended and he won it as the top bid of $400.  Heritage themselves shill bid  (legal in Texas) the worthless photostat all the way.

He did not pay for the item and given the audio and email correspondence he possessed,  he invited Heritage to press the issue further.  They never did. Interestingly enough after a few months that photostat item disappeared from Heritage's archives. I believe he was banned from their auctions not that he would have used them again anyhow.

 

Edited January 23, 2022 by MAR1979

[Axelrod]

Shill bidding is one thing (bad), but shill bidding with the inside house knowledge of what another bidder's "hidden" max bid is has to be illegal, right? 

Is it just that no one can actually "prove" that last part, and it's just assumed from highly suspicious bidding activity?

[Gregd]

On 1/23/2022 at 1:33 PM, Axelrod said:

Shill bidding is one thing (bad), but shill bidding with the inside house knowledge of what another bidder's "hidden" max bid is has to be illegal, right? 

Is it just that no one can actually "prove" that last part, and it's just assumed from highly suspicious bidding activity?

Yikes! Such a worrisome discussion regarding any bidding on these auction site. Again, anyone ever heard of any former employees bringing out these allegations? 

[MAR1979]

On 1/23/2022 at 1:33 PM, Axelrod said:

Shill bidding is one thing (bad), but shill bidding with the inside house knowledge of what another bidder's "hidden" max bid is has to be illegal, right? 

Is it just that no one can actually "prove" that last part, and it's just assumed from highly suspicious bidding activity?

 

On 1/23/2022 at 1:35 PM, Gregd said:

Yikes! Such a worrisome discussion regarding any bidding on these auction site. Again, anyone ever heard of any former employees bringing out these allegations? 

What allegations? Its legal in Texas. While they may not advertise the practice, in the state in which they are charted it's totally lawful.

Edited January 23, 2022 by MAR1979

[WolverineX]

On 1/23/2022 at 6:17 AM, GermanFan said:

At least vintage comics are not inflatable. Whats there is there. So if central banks are forced to "print" more and more fiat money, non collectors might get the idea to store value in GA & SA. After Gold, Silver, BTC and fine Art, wine, vintage cars etc.

I get what you're saying. Although I'm not really sure about Bitcoin being a good inflation hedge since has dropped almost 50% from its all-time high and inflation is still killer

[Axelrod]

On 1/23/2022 at 1:42 PM, PiggyTTV said:

It was common knowledge before that actually occured.

https://www.originalprop.com/blog/2009/10/27/heritage-auction-galleries-lawsuit-in-the-news-claims-of-fake-bidder-n-p-gresham-auction-manipulation/

That article seems to say that shill bidding is illegal is Texas.  Just maybe not an auction house bidding on their own offerings (presumably with the desire to win them, in that event).

[MAR1979]

On 1/23/2022 at 1:48 PM, Axelrod said:

That article seems to say that shill bidding is illegal is Texas.  Just maybe not an auction house bidding on their own offerings (presumably with the desire to win them, in that event).

What is permitted gives them carte blanche. If they do win an item they can simply add it to next week's or months auction. For those bidding the bottom line is an item can and will hammer at minimum for whatever their algorithm is programmed. Again I'm sure there are some items not affected but I'm also sure that is factored in to their model.

At least you get all those nice e-mails bragging about how much money Hertigate pulls in from their auctions.  Yeah we get it Heritage you make a pile o'money, somehow at least to me not as endearing McDonald's bragging about how many burgers they have made.

 

 

Edited January 23, 2022 by MAR1979

[THE_BEYONDER]

[GermanFan]

The question is if there is any market that isnt manipulated. Pure supply and demand. Of course that doesnt make shill bidding right.

[WolverineX]

On 1/23/2022 at 2:10 PM, GermanFan said:

The question is if there is any market that isnt manipulated. Pure supply and demand. Of course that doesnt make shill bidding right.

To some degree but not like this.  

 

[NoMan]

On 1/23/2022 at 9:32 AM, thehumantorch said:

They also know our 'Secret Maximum Bid'.

I believe you. But can someone answer me this: I bid with HA on a big comic, my "secret maximum bid" was a great deal of money. I won the comic, but if HA was gonna ramp it up to my secret bid, why didn't they? It sold to me for a lot of money, but they could have made a lot more money by bidding it up to my secret bid.  

Edited January 23, 2022 by NoMan

[lizards2]

On 1/23/2022 at 11:44 AM, NoMan said:

I believe you. But can someone answer me this: I bid with HA on a big comic, my "secret maximum bid" was a great deal of money. I won the comic, but if HA was gonna ramp it up to my secret bid, why didn't they? It sold to me for a lot of money, but they could have made a lot more money by bidding it up to my secret bid.  

They let some of you suckers go to make it look good.

[NoMan]

On 1/23/2022 at 11:47 AM, lizards2 said:

They let some of you suckers go to make it look good.

perhaps but they could have inflicted some serious damage

[lizards2]

On 1/23/2022 at 11:48 AM, NoMan said:

On 1/23/2022 at 11:47 AM, lizards2 said:

They let some of you suckers go to make it look good.

perhaps but they could have inflicted some serious damage

I am a little fish with shallow pocketses, making a guess.

[NoMan]

On 1/23/2022 at 11:50 AM, lizards2 said:

I am a little fish with shallow pocketses, making a guess.

i really only talk to the serious players around here so this will be our last communication 

[WolverineX]

On 1/23/2022 at 2:44 PM, NoMan said:

I believe you. But can someone answer me this: I bid with HA on a big comic, my "secret maximum bid" was a great deal of money. I won the comic, but if HA was gonna ramp it up to my secret bid, why didn't they? It sold to me for a lot of money, but they could have made a lot more money by bidding it up to my secret bid.  

@NP_Gresham  was just busy.  Watching the playoffs or Single's inferno on Netflix at that time.

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/23/2022 at 2:48 PM, NoMan said:

perhaps but they could have inflicted some serious damage

Next time 

[thehumantorch]

On 1/23/2022 at 12:44 PM, NoMan said:

I believe you. But can someone answer me this: I bid with HA on a big comic, my "secret maximum bid" was a great deal of money. I won the comic, but if HA was gonna ramp it up to my secret bid, why didn't they? It sold to me for a lot of money, but they could have made a lot more money by bidding it up to my secret bid.  

We know they shill bid some auctions.  Which ones and why we don't know.  If I make a 'secret maximum bid' (SMB) their software must know my bid.  We don't know if management and staff can see our SMB and we don't know if they ever shill us knowing our SMB.  

I'd like to think they rarely shill auctions and never shill us knowing our SMB but it does feel like a rigged game.

[Larryw7]

Halperin was ethically challenged before he was involved with Heritage. With all of these other issues, I wonder why people in the know still bid on their auctions. But as a collector, I know how enticing it is because they have great books. But still...