The story of a promise made during the Korean War 9 9

[adamstrange]

On 2/25/2022 at 1:27 AM, sfcityduck said:

I didn't see it.  But you were saying BC was comprehensive.  Made me wonder if I missed something (which happens).  Your claim made me think I had.  But, unless you point it out to me, I'm not seeing it.

Here's what I said:

"If you add up what is on Heritage with Bleeding Cool (as a clever friend of mine has) you come up with 5002 books.  Some could be missing but we have a good idea of what is in the collection."

If you want a better answer, you'll probably have to wait.

[Dr. Love]

On 2/24/2022 at 9:35 PM, sfcityduck said:

Has Bleeding Cool included any raw books on the list?  Just curious.

Yup

[buttock]

On 2/24/2022 at 9:58 PM, sfcityduck said:

War 1 is, War 2 is not.  I count three Korean War covers that should be in the collection but have not seen them yet, although I might have missed them.  What are the two books already sold?

War 1

Operation Peril 2

Captain Steve Savage 1

War 2 & Battle 1 were both sold on heritage 

[Bookery]

On 2/24/2022 at 11:49 AM, buttock said:

FYI, I've heard from a source with an impeccable history that the collection came from Ohio.  If these guys were from CT then it's probably not the right folks. 

No... it's definitely not Ohio.  Nothing to see here.  I'd explore elsewhere.  I don't know where the collection came from.  I just know it's not from Ohio.

 

Anyway... on a completely unrelated note... I thought everyone might enjoy seeing the plans for the new Bookery my architect dropped off last night.  Construction begins in May.

 

[jimbo_7071]

Sorry @sfcityduck, but I remain unconvinced with respect to your theory. It seems like you're trying a little too hard to make the evidence fit.

Have we heard from any official source that Armand was Junie's real name, or is that an assumption based on the fact that the name is written on the books? That could be the name of one of his siblings or even the name of a friend if he arranged to have a friend pick up books for him while he was in the service.

We also don't know that the end date of the collection is related to his date of death in any way. The end date may reflect when he entered the service, not when he died.

If he went by Junie, that doesn't mean that he was a Junior. One of the names written on a book is Jean; maybe Junie is a nickname for Jean (which can be a man's name). Maybe Junie had a June birthday. Or, the nickname may be unrelated to any other appellation; people acquire nicknames in myriad ways.

There is evidence that at least one book was distributed regionally in the Cleveland area; that is compelling evidence that you have more or less dismissed out of hand.

Finally, you have proposed a candidate who was likely not killed in action at age 21. If Heritage was willing to fudge such a major detail, then who's to say that the story wasn't a complete fabrication? Maybe Heritage took the consignor at his or her word; maybe Heritage embellished things. (This is the same company that hired Mark Wilson, after all.)

I hope that the family is getting some money from this auction, but I won't be ultra surprised if we learn someday that that was not the case. The consignor may be someone like Doug Schmell who bought the collection for a song. Most dealers and collectors are good (if socially awkward) people, but like any other field where a quick buck can be had, the hobby does attract its share of parasites.

The 1950 census records will be released in April. I would suggest searching the Cleveland area for examples of the name Armand (as a given name or a surname), paying especial attention to examples that show up in proximity to Jean, Robert, or Stange. Korean War casualty records can also be searched by state.

https://www.archives.gov/research/military/korean-war/casualty-lists/state-level-alpha.html

Just to give one example of someone who needs to be ruled out, a Harry Stang (no e), Jr. , enlisted out of Lorain, Ohio, and was killed in action on December 16, 1951, and he had a brother named Robert who was one year older than he was. Now, the name Armand doesn't appear to factor in, so perhaps Harry can be ruled out easily. The point is, a number of candidates could appear viable if you selectively ignore or discount evidence.

To be fair, your theory may well be correct, but you haven't proved it.

Edited February 25, 2022 by jimbo_7071

[sfcityduck]

On 2/25/2022 at 8:46 AM, jimbo_7071 said:

Sorry @sfcityduck, but I remain unconvinced with respect to your theory. It seems like you're trying a little too hard to make the evidence fit.

Have we heard from any official source that Armand was Junie's real name, or is that an assumption based on the fact that the name is written on the books? That could be the name of one of his siblings or even the name of a friend if he arranged to have a friend pick up books for him while he was in the service.

We also don't know that the end date of the collection is related to his date of death in any way. The end date may reflect when he entered the service, not when he died.

If he went by Junie, that doesn't mean that he was a Junior. One of the names written on a book is Jean; maybe Junie is a nickname for Jean (which can be a man's name). Maybe Junie had a June birthday. Or, the nickname may be unrelated to any other appellation; people acquire nicknames in myriad ways.

There is evidence that at least one book was distributed regionally in the Cleveland area; that is compelling evidence that you have more or less dismissed out of hand.

Finally, you have proposed a candidate who was likely not killed in action at age 21. If Heritage was willing to fudge such a major detail, then who's to say that the story wasn't a complete fabrication? Maybe Heritage took the consignor at his or her word; maybe Heritage embellished things. (This is the same company that hired Mark Wilson, after all.)

I hope that the family is getting some money from this auction, but I won't be ultra surprised if we learn someday that that was not the case. The consignor may be someone like Doug Schmell who bought the collection for a song. Most dealers and collectors are good (if socially awkward) people, but like any other field where a quick buck can be had, the hobby does attract its share of parasites.

The 1950 census records will be released in April. I would suggest searching the Cleveland area for examples of the name Armand (as a given name or a surname), paying especial attention to examples that show up in proximity to Jean, Robert, or Stange. Korean War casualty records can also be searched by state.

https://www.archives.gov/research/military/korean-war/casualty-lists/state-level-alpha.html

At the outset of this thread, I made very clear that:

(1) I might be wrong, and 

(2) There are major factual discrepancies between the story told by Heritage and the story of the two brothers I have found.  

So I am not surprised by your post.  You raise an important point when you state:  "Finally, you have proposed a candidate who was likely not killed in action at age 21. If Heritage was willing to fudge such a major detail, then who's to say that the story wasn't a complete fabrication?"

My only response is that the story told by Heritage could be a complete fabrication.  That's exactly why I'm trying to find out the true story.  However, if the story they were trying to obscure was of the promise central to the story of Bob and Roger, that is exactly the fact that they would have to fudge.  Any reference to "promise" and "POW" would immediately have given the story away.

If the Promise Collection is not named after the promise at issue with Bob and Roger than I am concerned about the veracity of the story.  The marketing story seems implausible in several important respects (still it could be true).  And I believe Cat got it exactly right when he stated up thread:

On 2/24/2022 at 9:36 AM, Cat-Man_America said:

Reminder, what this is all about, and why anyone bothers prying further into the Promise Collection story.

The Promise story guarantees a premium; if it didn't the tale of two brothers would be moot.  This story is the anchor buoying the groundbreaking sales enjoyed by many of these books. The hyperbole, the mystery, the patriotic appeal, over-the-top grades and poignant charm of promises made and patriotic sacrifice in war are the crucible that forged the phenomenal success of this collection. In my estimation these are the key reasons so many folks are determined to verify the facts behind the back-story.  This is the means of guaranteeing the long-term popularity of this pedigree.  It's a lot more than curiosity. It's a financial imperative to have all the facts since so much rides on the validity of this tale.  

The opinion that some Promise book grades appear to be artificially high ...opinions that are debatable, but relevant... provides added impetus for pursuing all the relevant facts behind the brother's story, privacy issues not withstanding.  To reiterate: those questioning the story and pushing for verifiable details aren't doing this out of malice, lack of respect for the memory of a fallen hero or any lack of consideration for the wishes of his immediate family members.  It's out of a fundamental need for critical oversight of the hobby by it's most ardent patrons, fans and investors.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 25, 2022 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

On 2/25/2022 at 8:46 AM, jimbo_7071 said:

Sorry @sfcityduck, but I remain unconvinced with respect to your theory. It seems like you're trying a little too hard to make the evidence fit.

 

As for your specific comments:

You ask: "Have we heard from any official source that Armand was Junie's real name, or is that an assumption based on the fact that the name is written on the books?" 

     Response:  Surprised you ask this.  Heritage has stated "Junie" is not a real name and it appears from that "Robert" is.  And, of course, I am drawing an assumption that Armand is the OOs real name based on the many books it is on.  You are right that it might not be true. That is all made clear in my posts on this thread.

You comment: "We also don't know that the end date of the collection is related to his date of death in any way. The end date may reflect when he entered the service, not when he died."  

     Response:  That could also be the case.  I am floating a theory.  

Your comment: "If he went by Junie, that doesn't mean that he was a Junior. One of the names written on a book is Jean; maybe Junie is a nickname for Jean (which can be a man's name). Maybe Junie had a June birthday. Or, the nickname may be unrelated to any other appellation; people acquire nicknames in myriad ways." 

     Response:  Strange things happen, it is true.  As I noted above, there could multiple explanations for "Junie," the most common for that time period would be he was a "Jr."  But another possibility, along the lines you suggest, is that he is named "Junie" because he was the most "junior" member of his large family.  I would be surprised if "Junie" was a nickname for "Jean," and that "Jean" on the Batman 3 has additional letters after it as discussed above.  Again, its a theory.

Your comment: "There is evidence that at least one book was distributed regionally in the Cleveland area; that is compelling evidence that you have more or less dismissed out of hand."  

     Response:  The Cleveland giveaway Christmas comic from a regional Department Store could have entered the collection a variety ways including as a present from a friend or relative.

Your comment:  "The 1950 census records will be released in April. I would suggest searching the Cleveland area for examples of the name Armand (as a given name or a surname), paying especial attention to examples that show up in proximity to Jean, Robert, or Stange. Korean War casualty records can also be searched by state."

     Response:  I continue to research. I am aware of information floating around that has been obtusely referred to by folks posting on this thread that points to Cleveland.  That information does not necessarily rule out the Dumas brothers. But as my concern is finding the truth, not proving any particular theory right, rest assured I'll keep looking.  

The "Stang" brothers are an interesting pair because the younger is a "Jr." and the older is named "Robert."  But, there is only one book in the collection with the word "STANGE" on it, and its a different spelling.  And, as discussed above, it is somewhat weird looking as compared to the many "Armand" books, the "Jean..." Batman 3, and a few other oddities.  I see no association between the "Stang" family and "Armand" or "Jean" or any "promise."  In addition, Harry was 22 when he died:

I also don't find a Robert Stang of Ohio dying in the last two years so far. 

Of course, "Robert" is a very common name, and I have found other large families where, as with the Stang family, the second youngest sibling is named "Robert" and the youngest is a "Jr."  One such pair of brothers hail from Detroit, not all that far from Cleveland, and the youngest of those brothers is named "Armand." 

Which is why I am only floating a theory here.  The best theory I have yet found.  Heritage has provided so little information, it is very difficult to verify the story.  They have asked the comic collecting community to take the story on faith, and we don't even know if they verified it or just took the OOs family's comments on faith.

BUT here's the thing:  Even if Heritage and CGC owe their consignor anonymity, that does not mean they are prohibited from squashing false speculation that might impact the value of the pedigree.  I would not want to discover that Heritage wants the Dumas brother "promise" story falsely associated with the Promise Collection (which would likely boost prices) because that would be wrong in a wide array of senses. 

Personally, I do not want to encourage a "stolen valor" situation, which is why I caveat my opinions and have many times asked that this theory be crushed by those promoting the pedigree if it is off-base.  That's not happening.  So the only path forward is to seek other means to debunk or affirm the theory, while making sure that I caveat the theory as I have done.  

Edited February 25, 2022 by sfcityduck

[Straw-Man]

On 2/24/2022 at 7:48 PM, RareHighGrade said:

A lot of folks are just accepting the premise that the Promise collection's backstory is the basis for the record breaking prices.  I'm not convinced.  I think it may be due more to the fact that this is the first collection since the Church find that has so many books in such high grade (including ow/w page quality).  That, combined with the opportunity to buy in at the ground floor as well as the unique societal circumstances (shutdown, bitcoin, booming stock market), created a perfect storm for these nosebleed prices regardless of the backstory.

i’ve won 4 of them.  backstory not responsible for a nickel of my bids.  not saying it didn’t inspire underbidders, which affected me, merely that i wasn’t driven by it at all. 

Edited February 25, 2022 by Straw-Man

[sfcityduck]

On 2/25/2022 at 11:43 AM, Straw-Man said:

i’ve won 4 of them.  backstory not responsible for a nickel of my bids.  not saying it didn’t inspire underbidders, which affected me, merely that i wasn’t driven by it at all. 

We've seen folks on this thread who bought the books for the grades and we've seen folks who bought the books, in part or in whole, for the story.  

[jimbo_7071]

On 2/25/2022 at 3:05 PM, sfcityduck said:

We've seen folks on this thread who bought the books for the grades and we've seen folks who bought the books, in part or in whole, for the story.  

I bought two. For the Blue Bolt, the story was the main reason why I selected a patriotic cover featuring MacArthur (who commanded the troops in Korea).

For the other book, the story had no effect on my interest in the book or on my bids, but, as @Straw-Man mentioned, the underbidders may have been been affected by the story.

[Straw-Man]

i just heard that the spokane back-story is bunk; now it looks like i got screwed on this one.   sales thread tonite, deep discount.

 

 

 

 

 

 

not.

 

[Straw-Man]

p.s.   i know nothing about the spokane back-story.   and ain't caring.

[sfcityduck]

On 2/25/2022 at 1:14 PM, Straw-Man said:

p.s.   i know nothing about the spokane back-story.   and ain't caring.

My general view is I would rather have a higher grade non-ped of an issue than a lesser ped, except for the peds with good stories (e.g. Okajima).

[buttock]

On 2/25/2022 at 2:14 PM, Straw-Man said:

p.s.   i know nothing about the spokane back-story.   and ain't caring.

The story about the buyers fighting is way more interesting than the OO. 

[adamstrange]

On 2/25/2022 at 4:12 PM, Straw-Man said:

i just heard that the spokane back-story is bunk; now it looks like i got screwed on this one.   sales thread tonite, deep discount.

 

 

 

 

 

 

not.

 

That looks very familiar

[Straw-Man]

can't imagine why...

[lou_fine]

On 2/25/2022 at 1:38 PM, buttock said:

On 2/25/2022 at 1:14 PM, Straw-Man said:

p.s.   i know nothing about the spokane back-story.   and ain't caring.

The story about the buyers fighting is way more interesting than the OO. 

Isn't the sordid and rather notorious back-story to the Green River pedigree books a lot more "interesting", although I imagine the Green River story would tend to paint a rather negative picture onto the books?  

[Straw-Man]

On 2/25/2022 at 4:29 PM, lou_fine said:

Isn't the sordid and rather notorious back-story to the Green River pedigree books a lot more "interesting", although I imagine the Green River story would tend to paint a rather negative picture onto the books?  

this MUST be true.  So all of you with green river spideys that are back-story compromised, please p.m. me with some compromised prices on a few upgrades...

[jimbo_7071]

On 2/25/2022 at 2:41 PM, sfcityduck said:

As for your specific comments:

You ask: "Have we heard from any official source that Armand was Junie's real name, or is that an assumption based on the fact that the name is written on the books?" 

     Response:  Surprised you ask this.  Heritage has stated "Junie" is not a real name and it appears from that "Robert" is.  And, of course, I am drawing an assumption that Armand is the OOs real name based on the many books it is on.  You are right that it might not be true. That is all made clear in my posts on this thread.

You comment: "We also don't know that the end date of the collection is related to his date of death in any way. The end date may reflect when he entered the service, not when he died."  

     Response:  That could also be the case.  I am floating a theory.  

Your comment: "If he went by Junie, that doesn't mean that he was a Junior. One of the names written on a book is Jean; maybe Junie is a nickname for Jean (which can be a man's name). Maybe Junie had a June birthday. Or, the nickname may be unrelated to any other appellation; people acquire nicknames in myriad ways." 

     Response:  Strange things happen, it is true.  As I noted above, there could multiple explanations for "Junie," the most common for that time period would be he was a "Jr."  But another possibility, along the lines you suggest, is that he is named "Junie" because he was the most "junior" member of his large family.  I would be surprised if "Junie" was a nickname for "Jean," and that "Jean" on the Batman 3 has additional letters after it as discussed above.  Again, its a theory.

Your comment: "There is evidence that at least one book was distributed regionally in the Cleveland area; that is compelling evidence that you have more or less dismissed out of hand."  

     Response:  The Cleveland giveaway Christmas comic from a regional Department Store could have entered the collection a variety ways including as a present from a friend or relative.

Your comment:  "The 1950 census records will be released in April. I would suggest searching the Cleveland area for examples of the name Armand (as a given name or a surname), paying especial attention to examples that show up in proximity to Jean, Robert, or Stange. Korean War casualty records can also be searched by state."

     Response:  I continue to research. I am aware of information floating around that has been obtusely referred to by folks posting on this thread that points to Cleveland.  That information does not necessarily rule out the Dumas brothers. But as my concern is finding the truth, not proving any particular theory right, rest assured I'll keep looking.  

The "Stang" brothers are an interesting pair because the younger is a "Jr." and the older is named "Robert."  But, there is only one book in the collection with the word "STANGE" on it, and its a different spelling.  And, as discussed above, it is somewhat weird looking as compared to the many "Armand" books, the "Jean..." Batman 3, and a few other oddities.  I see no association between the "Stang" family and "Armand" or "Jean" or any "promise."  In addition, Harry was 22 when he died:

I also don't find a Robert Stang of Ohio dying in the last two years so far. 

Of course, "Robert" is a very common name, and I have found other large families where, as with the Stang family, the second youngest sibling is named "Robert" and the youngest is a "Jr."  One such pair of brothers hail from Detroit, not all that far from Cleveland, and the youngest of those brothers is named "Armand." 

Which is why I am only floating a theory here.  The best theory I have yet found.  Heritage has provided so little information, it is very difficult to verify the story.  They have asked the comic collecting community to take the story on faith, and we don't even know if they verified it or just took the OOs family's comments on faith.

BUT here's the thing:  Even if Heritage and CGC owe their consignor anonymity, that does not mean they are prohibited from squashing false speculation that might impact the value of the pedigree.  I would not want to discover that Heritage wants the Dumas brother "promise" story falsely associated with the Promise Collection (which would likely boost prices) because that would be wrong in a wide array of senses. 

Personally, I do not want to encourage a "stolen valor" situation, which is why I caveat my opinions and have many times asked that this theory be crushed by those promoting the pedigree if it is off-base.  That's not happening.  So the only path forward is to seek other means to debunk or affirm the theory, while making sure that I caveat the theory as I have done.  

If you don't trust Heritage to give the true account, why would you trust them if they attempted to squash a particular theory?

Any theory will need to be proved without any statement from Heritage (which I doubt will be forthcoming anyway).

I will be more accepting of your theory if you can find some examples of someone named nicknamed Junie because he was the "junior member of the family" despite not actually  being a junior. Like I said, I think that you're trying a bit too hard to make the evidence fit your theory.

[sfcityduck]

On 2/26/2022 at 12:24 AM, jimbo_7071 said:

If you don't trust Heritage to give the true account, why would you trust them if they attempted to squash a particular theory?

Any theory will need to be proved without any statement from Heritage (which I doubt will be forthcoming anyway).

I will be more accepting of your theory if you can find some examples of someone named nicknamed Junie because he was the "junior member of the family" despite not actually  being a junior. Like I said, I think that you're trying a bit too hard to make the evidence fit your theory.

It is clear that Heritage is engaging in misdirection.  This is established by the basic fact that they are not telling us the true name of the younger brother.  The marketing story of the ped states the younger brother was "known as Junie" without explaining to whom or why or when. So the "Junie" part of the story is the least verifiable and most likely to be intended to conceal identity, not illuminate it.   There may be no records anywhere that tie the OO to the name "Junie."  For example, one of my favorite books as a kid was written about 1950 and features two central characters who are twins:  The older calls the younger "Junior" and the younger calls the older "Grandpa."  Nicknames are terms of endearment that can have a variety of origins and don't end up on official records.  So that is the least helpful of the info given by Heritage.

The most important info may well be what is on the comics themselves.  

Heritage has told an extraordinary story for the purpose of marketing comics.  A story so tailored to comic collectors that it it difficult to believe.  But I do not think that Heritage would want to profit off of a wholly false story for a host of reasons.  The Dumas brothers story, a better story than that told by Heritage (and potentially consistent with it), seems to fit the basic facts and the notion of a "promise" being important to the two brothers' relationship more than any other pair of candidates I've seen.  But, that could be wrong.  If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but their story is still worth knowing.  For me, the motivator is not the economics (as important as they are to the collecting community), but the history.

 

Edited February 26, 2022 by sfcityduck