Paid for a book on CLink Exchange, we never get the book - shows up for sale on the Boards 10 10

[Aman619]

On 7/7/2022 at 9:45 PM, Dr. Balls said:

I was thinking about this on the drive home. This is how a bank operates. Banks use the money in deposit accounts to make loans to other people or businesses. In return, the bank receives interest payments on those loans from borrowers, never actually having "money" themselves. They generate revenue on other people's money (everyone knows this).

In the case of the auction house scenario - Seller 1 sells a book last month and Buyer 1 pays within 10 days, leaving 20 days for floating the money allowing themselves a massive fund to make purchases, invest, etc. Seller 2 sells a book today and Buyer 2 pays for it, but if the money paid to them from the previous auction is tied up - they can take Buyer 2's money and pays off Seller 1 from 30 days ago, perpetually never actually paying people with the funds they make from the specific sale because it can always be paid from future funds due to the 20-day float. They have access - like you said - to a big pile of money to leverage against something else that generates them profit, but they are using someone else's money to do it.

They are basically operating a bank but without any regulation. If they were forced to pay out every single payment in a short period of time (like a run on a bank) - would they have all the funds to cover their liabilities? Casinos are required to do this and healthcare organizations are required to have money in the bank at all times to cover the liability of their policies - is there similar requirements for auction houses to adhere to?

An auction house can simply tell a customer that it won't pay them - unlike a bank or casino. If you go to the bank, you can get your money. If you win $100k at the casino, they have to pay you on the way out. It is not legal for them to say "Come back in 20 days and I'll write you a check." I'm sure somewhere in the user agreement of an auction house this is stipulated, but I found the parallels Shad brought up interesting.

Oh and:

well, in most businesses, vendors terms are usually Paid in full in 30 days.  SO what you describe about auction houses is just business as usual everywhere.  Unless your client pre-pays you i full, you are always waiting 30 days (at best!) to collect, and end up using the next jobs (or earlier ones) to pay for the previous ones costs..  plus your overhead..

[shadroch]

On 7/7/2022 at 10:01 PM, Aman619 said:

well, in most businesses, vendors terms are usually Paid in full in 30 days.  SO what you describe about auction houses is just business as usual everywhere.  Unless your client pre-pays you i full, you are always waiting 30 days (at best!) to collect, and end up using the next jobs (or earlier ones) to pay for the previous ones costs..  plus your overhead..

Most businesses get thirty days billing because they have to sell the product.  If I get 50 cases of beer June 1st, I will sell most of it and have the money to pay for it by July 1st.

 There is no reason to hold the payments thirty days except that they can.  When CL was ridicuouly late paying me two auctions in a row, I stopped using them.  At that point, I was buying more than I sold and I stopped both.

Edited July 8, 2022 by shadroch

[Aman619]

If you sold one book to,one customer and he paid right away, you could maybe expect clink to pay you.  T your entire transaction is complete.  Waiting a month to,pay you makes sense though so they spend a few weeks settling up,lots of consignors and then they can run checks for lots of people at once.  I guess their MO is somewhere between paying asap whenever possible and hanging onto the money until they are comfortable paying it out.

[shadroch]

You can guess however you want, but the evidence I've seen is them holding on to money as long as possible. 

When you sell a book thru MCS, they promptly pay you and in return for their 10% fee, they assume the risks of a return.  CL  sells a book and delays paying you in case there is a problem.  When considering who to consign to, that makes a huge difference. 

[Bookery]

On 7/7/2022 at 2:43 PM, MAR1979 said:

I'm positive there are honest Comic Book/Comic Art/Trading Card Dealers and Auction Houses out there even if in my 40 years (counting childhood) I've never encountered a single one.  Perhaps now society on the whole mirrors them???

 

 

You don't get out much, then.  They are out there.  You are more likely to run into dealers who are simply clueless or are bad businessmen than outright crooks.  Many are woefully underfunded, which is no excuse, or manage their resources poorly.  Also -- not getting the offer you want does not make the dealer a crook.  Being dishonest means lying to you about the quality of the books you have, passing on damaged or restored books without disclosure, or other forms of misrepresentation.  I've seen dealers (on these boards actually) called crooks because they charge too much for their items.  That's not dishonest... it falls into that bad businessman category maybe... but one can charge whatever they want for their property.  A dealer who habitually over-charges hurts themselves more than anyone else.  

The few times I've been called a crook were almost always when I DIDN'T make an offer!  "I'm sorry... there's nothing in your collection that I can use right now"... followed by "You're an (expletive) crook!" as they storm out.  (Still not sure how that works?).  Most of the time these are collections I pass on as it's pretty obvious by the way the seller is acting that the books are likely stolen (in these cases I also have a staffer jot down their license plate just in case a couple of days later we get a call about stolen books).  Trust me... there are as many, if not more, crooks out there trying to scam dealers as the other way around.

But for the true crooks out there... I never really understand it.  There are easier ways to make a living than selling comic books.  I'm at a point where I can retire if I want to.  I don't want to lose money, obviously, but I don't need to make a lot either.  I drive a 20-year old car because I like it, not because I can't afford a new one.  I don't take expensive vacations because I'm doing what I want to do here.  I don't need a bigger house.  So what would be the point of being dishonest with people?  On the other hand... I do know some that feel they MUST take advantage of someone as a sort of power trip... it's a game they play in which they must always win, and win big as some sort of ego thing.  But these are fairly few.

But to another poster's point... the comic community really does do a poor job of weeding the bad apples out.  Some have operated for decades.  Just stop buying from them.  You are hurting yourselves and the rest of us by continuing to support them.  There are zillions of books out there.  Most collectors aren't even seeking out rare stuff.  The silver and bronze age that most collect are abundant.  There are copies available every single day of the week.  There is no need to support those that truly are dishonest.

[Cat]

On 7/8/2022 at 11:58 AM, Cobbledclam said:

And from state to state probably different laws and regulations etc. concerning your situation….

I don't get any part of this reference? Can I have an explanation please? I'm interested. 

[MAR1979]

On 7/8/2022 at 9:09 AM, Bookery said:

You don't get out much, then.  They are out there.  You are more likely to run into dealers who are simply clueless or are bad businessmen than outright crooks.  Many are woefully underfunded, which is no excuse, or manage their resources poorly.  Also -- not getting the offer you want does not make the dealer a crook.  Being dishonest means lying to you about the quality of the books you have, passing on damaged or restored books without disclosure, or other forms of misrepresentation.  I've seen dealers (on these boards actually) called crooks because they charge too much for their items.  That's not dishonest... it falls into that bad businessman category maybe... but one can charge whatever they want for their property.  A dealer who habitually over-charges hurts themselves more than anyone else.  

The few times I've been called a crook were almost always when I DIDN'T make an offer!  "I'm sorry... there's nothing in your collection that I can use right now"... followed by "You're an (expletive) crook!" as they storm out.  (Still not sure how that works?).  Most of the time these are collections I pass on as it's pretty obvious by the way the seller is acting that the books are likely stolen (in these cases I also have a staffer jot down their license plate just in case a couple of days later we get a call about stolen books).  Trust me... there are as many, if not more, crooks out there trying to scam dealers as the other way around.

But for the true crooks out there... I never really understand it.  There are easier ways to make a living than selling comic books.  I'm at a point where I can retire if I want to.  I don't want to lose money, obviously, but I don't need to make a lot either.  I drive a 20-year old car because I like it, not because I can't afford a new one.  I don't take expensive vacations because I'm doing what I want to do here.  I don't need a bigger house.  So what would be the point of being dishonest with people?  On the other hand... I do know some that feel they MUST take advantage of someone as a sort of power trip... it's a game they play in which they must always win, and win big as some sort of ego thing.  But these are fairly few.

But to another poster's point... the comic community really does do a poor job of weeding the bad apples out.  Some have operated for decades.  Just stop buying from them.  You are hurting yourselves and the rest of us by continuing to support them.  There are zillions of books out there.  Most collectors aren't even seeking out rare stuff.  The silver and bronze age that most collect are abundant.  There are copies available every single day of the week.  There is no need to support those that truly are dishonest.

Your post may be applicable to some but not for me. I do agree though that many Comic Book/Comic Art/Trading Card dealer are clueless lacking even the most basic acumen.

Your post focused on selling. I do not sell comics and if I did it would never be directly to any dealer. If one day I decide to sell some it might be via CLINK auction.  I have sold under 5 pieces of Comic Art using their auctions  the past 12-15 years. Other than their "policy" on delaying payments and their dated 2004 style website they are somewhat easy to work with.

My post you quoted has to do with the lower than used car dealer integrity of every comic dealer I've ever personally met. It's totally off-topic for this thread so won't comment further.

 

Edited July 8, 2022 by MAR1979

[profholt82]

"Don't you understand? Comic Link doesn't have your money. Your money is in Bill's books and Steve's books. Why, you wouldn't foreclose on Joe, would you?"

[SeniorSurfer]

On 7/8/2022 at 9:27 AM, Cat said:

I don't get any part of this reference? Can I have an explanation please? I'm interested. 

It was an old TV show from the 60s called "The Beverly Hillbillies" wherein a country family discovered oil on their property and "moved to Beverly...Hills, that is" as the song went.  The humor derived from the innocence and good nature of the family clashing with the modern world moneygrubbers that wanted to pry them from their fortune.  Pictured is Jethro who, in addition to his innocence and good nature, was quite the dullard so he had trouble with "cypherin" (math/cyphers) and "gozintas" (division, as in 3 "goes into" 12 4 times).

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 7/8/2022 at 8:59 AM, SeniorSurfer said:

It was an old TV show from the 60s called "The Beverly Hillbillies" wherein a country family discovered oil on their property and "moved to Beverly...Hills, that is" as the song went.  The humor derived from the innocence and good nature of the family clashing with the modern world moneygrubbers that wanted to pry them from their fortune.  Pictured is Jethro who, in addition to his innocence and good nature, was quite the dullard so he had trouble with "cypherin" (math/cyphers) and "gozintas" (division, as in 3 "goes into" 12 4 times).

I got all of that on the first look, except the "goes into." Given my southern twang from Texas I should have figured, but I might have been sleepy 😴 ficking to sleep

 

[Dr. Balls]

On 7/7/2022 at 11:01 PM, Aman619 said:

well, in most businesses, vendors terms are usually Paid in full in 30 days.  SO what you describe about auction houses is just business as usual everywhere.  Unless your client pre-pays you i full, you are always waiting 30 days (at best!) to collect, and end up using the next jobs (or earlier ones) to pay for the previous ones costs..  plus your overhead..

Edit: I am not trying to be argumentative, so I apologize if it sounds like that. You bring up valid business points that are relevant - I was just commenting to one part of it.

I have about 12 different vendors that I deal with on a weekly basis, and no one is 30 days anymore. It sucks and it’s a huge time waster for bookkeeping. The other 10-15 vendors I have to rely on once a month or every two months are also payable within 10 days. All vendors are 10 days at best now and most are immediately due or require ACH for an account. I have one lone vendor who invoices at 30 days (he services us weekly) and we have 10 days to pay. 

Years ago 30 days was the norm, at the agency I worked at it from 99-2015, it went from 30 days to 10 days or immediate payment around 2010. (My guess is during/after the recession people had to tighten up, especially since the banks jacked everything up so bad, the money didn’t flow as freely).

Businesses that need to buy goods from distributors, etc are different than an auction house, which provides a non-tangible service. Which is neither here nor there - but when you are holding onto money that isn’t yours for selling something that isn’t yours the overhead argument becomes a little less stable, due to the fact that your unable to utilize the assets within your overhead cost to actually deliver the service you claim to provide.

I will guess that a place like MCS has insurance to cover their consignment books while they are in their possession - and that has an added cost. If CL doesn't possess their consignment books, they wouldn't have that insurance or incur that cost - but as far I as I know, the consignment commission is the same at both places (I have not sold anything at either). Depending on how often this issue happens at CL, perhaps on-site possession of their consignments are in the future? Or maybe I'm just part of the small percentage of people that have problems and it's not worth CL's investment into changing their consignment (exchange) program?

Edited July 8, 2022 by Dr. Balls
I didn’t want to sound like a dink.

[jsilverjanet]

On 7/7/2022 at 4:43 PM, F For Fake said:

What continues to be amazing to me is the number of folks trying to pull shady stuff in this community, as though we don’t all talk to each other. Reputation is everything, and the circle of people who spend thousands on these books is much smaller than some of these guys realize. As Hector said, Boardies have always done a much better job of policing transactions than any other selling body, but even the stuff that sells off-boards is going to come to light on these pages, eventually.

when I would spend more time at the bigger conventions, I would hear a lot more of this type of stuff, who did what, who to avoid etc. Rep is everything in this community.

[Dr. Balls]

On 7/8/2022 at 7:44 AM, MAR1979 said:

Your post may be applicable to some but not for me. I do agree though that many Comic Book/Comic Art/Trading  Card dealer clueless and lack even the most basic acumen.

There is also a large customer base who don't live within areas that actually provide access to a variety of dealers. Where I live, there is one comic book shop. The next one is 4 hours away. The closest comic convention (Emerald City, I believe) is 10 hours away. A lot of people can get a bad impression because their local dealer (who might be a stand up guy) can't get the things a person is looking for, so they have to go online. And as we've seen with this thread here - you can literally see the book I bought posted in three different places in various states of being "for sale/sold".

Thankfully, we have these Boards. If you take the time to participate in the community, you develop a sense of who is legit as you can see them deal with other boardies. I maybe have had one or two deals go south here out of hundreds (buy and sell) that went just fine. I'll take those odds. I can't go one week on Ebay without a cancelled buy, bid retraction or non-paying bidder.

The world isn't perfect, but the community here is pretty great.

[wombat]

On 7/7/2022 at 1:58 AM, Aman619 said:

Really, I won’t see Comiclink as doing anything wrong so far.  It’s been only a few weeks, and to them the deal is in trouble but not dead.  Of course now that this is public and they’ve heard from both sides, they should and probably will very soon.take their chips and go home and mail the 8K back.  It’s a big enough ship that it takes time to turn around…

You may be the only person who really thinks this. 

[Aman619]

well, Im out of it so the moans and accusations dont land the same way as for many of you.  Business polices always favor the ease and profitability for the company, to the extent they can. And clearly Comiclink can.   Holding onto cash is helpful to a company.  SO is measuring twice and cutting a check once. How many of their clients would be so quick to return funds to Clink if it was later determined to be a mistake?  How many would even tell them? Im not trying to defend bad practices, just suggesting its more of a prudent nature, if somewhat one sided in the house's favor.  but go figure.  thats not a crime, and if it annoys enough people they will shop elsewhere.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Aman619

[revat]

On 7/8/2022 at 10:33 AM, Aman619 said:

well, Im out of it so the moans and accusations dont land the same way as for many of you.  Business polices always favor the ease and profitability for the company, to the extent they can. And clearly Comiclink can.   Holding onto cash is helpful to a company.  SO is measuring twice and cutting a check once. How many of their clients would be so quick to return funds to Clink if it was later determined to be a mistake?  How many would even tell them? Im not trying to defend bad practices, just suggesting its more of a prudent nature, if somewhat one sided in the house's favor.  but go figure.  thats not a crime, and if it annoys enough people they will shop elsewhere.

this matches my sentiment on it generally.  In this specific case for the OP though, 'holding the money' looks/feels a lot worse when they mailed the other purchased books to the buyer without the 'lost' book, and made no notification to the buyer (or refund) when they allegedly knew the book was not coming.  They could have sent an email communicating the issues and their resolution attempts, even if they had a policy of not refunding for xx number of days.  

[Dr. Balls]

On 7/8/2022 at 11:33 AM, Aman619 said:

Im not trying to defend bad practices, just suggesting its more of a prudent nature, if somewhat one sided in the house's favor.  but go figure.  thats not a crime, and if it annoys enough people they will shop elsewhere.

I'm pretty much on this thought. We are stuck waiting for our money to come back, so I just have to deal with the wait time. At the end, we'll have to decide if we feel satisfied enough with the way it played out to go back there.

[Brock]

On 7/7/2022 at 6:48 PM, Aman619 said:

Client pays you 100K, sit on it an extra 30 days?  Bam! 7K free money.

On 7/8/2022 at 12:51 AM, Aman619 said:

 Nowadays, even a million bucks @ .01% is roughly 100 bucks a year. 

When we start our new auction house, brother, I am going to put you in charge of marketing, but no way are you getting near the money... 

[Domo Arigato]

On 7/6/2022 at 10:08 PM, toro said:

...this way "personal reasons" don't get in the way. 

[Domo Arigato]

On 7/6/2022 at 1:17 PM, Dr. Balls said:

I was given the name of the seller Slugshots Comics and his Instagram feed @Slugshots.Comics, and contacted him there. Slugshots Comics had obtained/posted the book on June 15th on his Instagram feed, a day after having it posted here on the Boards for sale by Omaha.

I haven't seen this addressed yet.....so I may be misreading it.  

Slugshots Comics is now in possession of the book.  He had Omaha-CGC-Comics list it for sale here as a consignment. 

Did Slugshot then list the book for sale on his Instagram as well?

If so, this is against forum selling rules.  Specifically, the one listed below:

A sale thread must be an exclusive Boards-only offer. If the book is offered for sale through another venue such as a personal site, dealer site, eBay, etc., then it should not be offered here. If a book is offered elsewhere, it should be offered in the Sales Advertising board.