C2E2 Variant Drama 24 24

[fast eddie]

On 8/12/2022 at 2:25 PM, MrBedrock said:

And another in a long line of public relations blunders by a company that unfortunately doesn't understand how failing to properly address their mistakes can cause irreparable damage.

 

I hear Supertramp playing "Goodbye Stranger" for some reason,,,,,,

[Jimmy Linguini]

On 8/12/2022 at 2:24 PM, BoognishRises said:

Telling ya, Marvel is fine with it. Rich at Bleeding Cool didn't confirm squat. 

Prepare for the acetate invasion. Multiple retailers are already making plans to keep this trash going.

No. When you sign up to do a retailer variant cover with Marvel (or any publisher that has any marketshare) you have to sign a contract. The contact says you can't use the artwork that they paid for (yes Marvel paid Crain for the original cover) in any other way than its intended. I'm not lawyer but I can guarantee you that Marvel is washing their hands with Black Flag and they could very possibly lose their diamond / Penguin account.

Do you expect Marvel to put out a statement about these books? I do not.

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

On 8/12/2022 at 11:31 AM, jaybuck43 said:

In fairness (I want to vomit for saying that) Flag Code rules require that the book not depict the flag correctly.  For instance in the ASM 583 Variant, the Future President is shown against a flag with only 9 stripes.  So I would actually expect them to mis-depict the flag, which is the highest honor you can give the flag (since its not supposed to be depicted on any product)

On the ASM cover, the flag is waving, so there are only 9 *visible* stripes (or perhaps 10, since the next stripe would be white, and it's on a white background). I read the image as if the top stripes are folded back, and hidden from view, due to the flag waving.

[jhenry30]

On 8/12/2022 at 1:02 PM, CGC Mike said:

We feel it is important to provide transparency on how CGC arrived at our method of certifying Clayton Crain’s Ultimate Fallout comics with the attached acetate covers. For us, this was an unprecedented item to grade. After Mr. Crain spoke with us prior to C2E2, the rules we applied to his books:

 

• The additional cover had to be created by an established artist in the industry.
• The comic to which the cover was attached had to contain a cover by that same artist.
• A copy of the comic with the attached cover had to be submitted to us for inspection prior to certifying any copies.

 

Given the recent circumstances, we have made adjustments to the labeling originally used for the Ultimate Fallout exhibiting the acetate cover. Going forward, any copies submitted to CGC will display in the label text: "In God We Intrust" Acetate Artist Cover attached with 2 staples after manufacturing. The books will still be allowed to receive a Universal label.

 

This will also apply to Mr. Crain’s forthcoming copies of Ghost Rider #1 and Deadpool Nerdy 30 #1 that contain an acetate cover.  

 

 

So you guys are confirming that you are allowing bootleg books? How is this not considered a married cover? Why does Crain get to do it but not everyone else? How did a book that never had anything above a 9.8 suddenly get 9.9s and a 10 after being handled multiple times over a year and having a new cover stapled on. Are you just grading covers now? Shouldn't that be noted on the label as well. You guys haven't clarified anything except that you have neglected your own grading standards for a quick payday. At best the label should be purple or green without Marvel listed anywhere on it since it wasn't authorized. You guys put counterfeit on the Cerberus books, you should here as well.

[Guardian Comics]

On 8/12/2022 at 1:48 PM, CGC Mike said:

To those that have asked me questions regarding these books, I am sorry but I cannot answer any of them.  

Because you don't know the answers, or the fact that the answers are damning???

[MrBedrock]

On 8/12/2022 at 1:28 PM, MattTheDuck said:

Can it though?  Are people going to stop submitting legitimate comics for grading?  I can't imagine anything else getting their attention.

People may not stop submitting, but other people certainly will become more hesitant about buying.

[mattn792]

On 8/12/2022 at 11:14 AM, Crops068 said:

Uhmmm just sayin, yikes.

CGC opened the door, the opportunists are walking through.  The acetate craze will be the new NFT craze until the whole thing inevitably collapses in on itself.

[DrunkWooky]

On 8/12/2022 at 12:29 PM, Sigur Ros said:

Clayton Crain himself called it the "In God we Intrust" revision. 

Intrust is an older form of entrust. 

It's intentional,  not bad grammar. 

It doesn't make sense, though. The prefix already exists in the sentence as the first word "In." Trust can be an adjective, noun, or verb. Here it's a verb. "In" is an adverb, modifying "trust" so that trust operates on the object, "God" in the modified way "in" God. The prefix "In" or "En" is redundant on the suffix trust. 

I know Entrust and Intrust are both words, but they are not correct in this sentence. 

[jcjames]

On 8/12/2022 at 10:48 AM, CGC Mike said:

To those that have asked me questions regarding these books, I am sorry but I cannot answer any of them.  

They really aren't directed you specifically Mike, they're all directed at CGC itself. 

Sorry you're the bearing the brunt of the ire here, you really need to be paid a lot more!!! 

 

[TTony]

On 8/11/2022 at 7:31 PM, Beige said:

That's the reason Spider-man was always poor...

On 8/11/2022 at 9:51 PM, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

If I had to guess, it's probably more that they realize that they shouldn't have graded these, especially with a universal label, but they need to protect the integrity of their brand, so they're trying to craft a response that does that, but would also be more acceptable to the community than the false starts they offered up earlier in the thread.

CGC is in "saving face" mode.  Unfortunately, this is like quicksand to them until they go back to their core rules (modifying books after production gets GREEN).  Everything else they say is just making it worse.  The bigger issue is starting to be the "We can do no wrong" stance by CGC and the new and inventive ways to explain why they did things.  Ironically, they are ruining their brand by not admitting they made a mistake.  It's really like a child who is making up excuses.

On 8/12/2022 at 9:23 AM, Skwerl said:

At this point the impossible 10.0 and 9.9 scores on these books are more scandalous than the blue labels, but all of that is far more scandalous than anything at all Black Flag has done, or any of the influencer douches did, or how horrible the cover is, or any of that. CGC has burned into our consciousness that CGC 10s and CGC 9.9s aren't anything special. At best, they're 9.8s that were submitted by someone with clout. At worst, they might not even be 9.8s. Either way, with this move, they've revealed that those two grades were essentially cosmetic gimmicks that we have all been suckered into. The legal fantasy we should be discussing here isn't copyright infringement, but a class action lawsuit from customers. Where we could subpoena to get to the bottom of this pay for grade scam.

I would put the blue label and 10.0/9.9 scoring at the same level of severity.  Both are incorrect and devalue my higher grade books.

On 8/12/2022 at 9:26 AM, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

Why not just print it on acetate, and staple it to whatever t-shirt you're wearing?

Can't wait to see Acetategate cosplay!

On 8/12/2022 at 10:35 AM, manetteska said:

1. I'm not buying these 3 rules were actually talked about prior to this week, otherwise this post would have been created much earlier than today.

2. Ignoring the timing of these rules, it sounds like instead of applying the regular CGC grading standards to a book with items added after manufacturing, an "established artist" approached CGC, asked for a favor, and CGC obliged.

These rules were 100% JUST MADE UP!!!!  CGC, can we have a list of "established artists in the industry"?  

I will 100% fund an established artist to do this with me.  I want some 10.0's.

 

[Cman429]

On 8/12/2022 at 1:10 PM, bc said:

Going forward, any copies submitted to CGC will display in the label text: "In God We Intrust" Acetate Artist Cover attached with 2 staples after manufacturing. The books will still be allowed to receive a Universal label.

 

Wait, isn’t “adding things to a book after the fact” literally the purpose of a green label? So their solution is “we’re gonna make note it’s a green label on a blue label.” Just crazy. I don’t agree with 90% of the conspiracies and legal nonsense being bandied about but this was the ONE thing I couldn’t see them validating and they’re choosing that hill to die on. 

This really is going to open up a can of worms with publishers slapping acetate covers on worthless back stock they couldn’t sell. Maybe those publishers who specialize in nudie covers will overlay some britches so the comic becomes like one of those pens you get down in Tijuana. I’m excited by the infinite possibilities…

[jhenry30]

 

On 8/12/2022 at 2:33 PM, DrunkWooky said:

It doesn't make sense, though. The prefix already exists in the sentence as the first word "In." Trust can be an adjective, noun, or verb. Here it's a verb. "In" is an adverb, modifying "trust" so that trust operates on the object, "God" in the modified way "in" God. The prefix "In" or "En" is redundant on the suffix trust. 

I know Entrust and Intrust are both words, but they are not correct in this sentence. 

Well Crain may be an artist for a reason.

[TTony]

On 8/12/2022 at 11:32 AM, Guardian Comics said:

Because you don't know the answers, or the fact that the answers are damning???

I'm guessing management is now taking the "let it blow over" approach, I wish I could see if Mike is blinking 3 times.

[toro]

On 8/12/2022 at 3:32 AM, Marbleman3 said:

Another lurker here, long time collector -  long time lurker too. I really do apologize for the lengthy post, I know everyone is busy and time is precious, so who needs another very long post, and there’s lots of jokes and fun repetition on this chain, which I think is fun to read and great to see honestly. I am just compelled to write something and share with you all my thoughts and experiences with this shameful controversy because this hobby is my passion and I have benefited immensely from this community and from CGC’s existence. I dabble in purchasing CGC slabs, but never actually directly submitted myself. My general view at the end of the day was that CGC and similar companies (even if not perfect) were doing a good thing pushing this hobby forward by creating something akin to a commodities market and providing stability to a hobby that sorely needed it post-Wizard and the ‘00s. I respected all of that and would support it silently with my wallet.  

I’m glad all of this is coming to light with a higher profile book, shop and artist, like Crain and newly-coined-in-my-mind “Trash Flag”. I’m a big Miracleman collector and have been annoyed and frustrated for years (!) at the inconsistency of grading those New Dimension stamped copies as blue label slabs. That had always seemed to me as having been swept under the rug and would only come up now and again in my Miracleman internet searches, but never as the focus of real anger from this community, more like a curiosity.  Maybe I missed the boat when that first occurred, but it didn’t seem like anyone cared about much about New Dimension and CGC both ignoring the obvious before this, and maybe people still don’t. And it wasn’t worth getting too upset in my view at the time because it didn’t seem like it would become common practice in the grading industry.

But I can’t be silent on this. This whole grading system isn’t complex math, it isn’t rocket science. These are simple and logical standards set forth by CGC and other grading companies with any brain power, essentially from day one. If anyone (ANYONE!) alters a comic after it’s initially published/produced, it receives a different label from generic blue (previously generic red) to indicate an alteration so consumers can spot the difference. This is just intuitive. You could put 10 children in a room for an hour to come up with basic rules about comic book grading and they would choose that as rule number one. I know there is more than one issue stemming from this convention, but this is the one at the forefront of my mind

You have a company touting that it’s blue label slabs stand for one thing and customers and others rely on that to spend a significant amount of money for that label. If truly created in the way being reported, these blue slab acetates would be bootlegs produced PURPOSELY to deceive. There is no other way to describe it. None.

It’s so sad it has come to this. It also a shame the Better Business Bureau has no teeth.  People may start considering other resources apart from posting on social media and writing articles because if all of this is true, there is a level of deception here that no one should tolerate if they respect the truth. And this is a hobby that is focused on the details. Ebay is a for-profit company, as are the other grading companies, and they are, at the end of the day, only concerned with their own economic and shareholder interests, so they may not be the only ones in a position to resolve matters. 

This forum is incredible and you are all amazing for keeping the momentum going, but I think you need to primarily speak with your wallets as you continue to spread accurate information, as you have been doing.  CGC has been bought and is managed by an investment firm. These entities are profit-oriented and major change is most likely going to occur by (1) keeping up the social media impact, because that is currently how the comic hobby thrives and shares information, and (2) stop feeding this company money if you disagree with current practices until real change occurs.

I don’t know anything about @cgcMike other than he seems to be the point of contact at the moment, but I hope he continues to push this forum’s messaging over to his bosses to effect REAL CHANGE. Agreed on starting to contact others in the organization who have more or real control on policy change. This is pathetic customer service and none of you subscribers, investors or collectors deserve this after all of your time and investment in CGC, which up until now seems to have been a generally solid company all things considered. Honestly not even the private investors in CGC deserve this if they were not a part of this decision making - I would bet there are major concerns and talks going on at the moment, although that is speculation. What I am sure of is my social group will reconsider spending with CGC, even though no one else will blast this over social media because that is just not everyone’s way.

Minimum next step from CGC should be an APOLOGY and AT LEAST an attempt to recall these slabs. To have these slabs on the CGC census (including the 20-30+ yr old Miracleman New Dimension stamped joke slabs) is an affront to the hobby and collecting community. As mentioned many times, this is what CGC chooses to take a stand on? Is nothing respected or sacred anymore? A true failure - would love to read their internal code of ethics policy, if there is one. Don’t get me started on black flag who I will not purchase from again until they get their heads straight.  Just pathetic.  I can’t speak to Crain, as I really enjoy his art and hope he was not involved in this, but I’m sure it’s not a great look for him. Influencers who planned this with CGC and black flag? Shame on you. Those who didn’t (and who did?), please donate any funds from any crap sales to LEGIT charities or orgs.  LEGIT. Do your diligence please.

These are my (very lengthy) two cents.  It’s possible people here may take issue with some of the above. My intent is only to help the community I love.  I love collecting comics and I want to make change and most times I feel powerless because I’m just one person with an internet connection, but I have a brain and I have a wallet. Happy to interact further. Let’s keep it civil if you disagree. 

I’m so, so disappointed in CGC - a place I once dreamed I could support one day maybe even by becoming a grader.  Maybe some day when they get their heads straight. Thank you all for reading.

12 years too late, but welcome to the boards. 

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 8/12/2022 at 1:02 PM, CGC Mike said:

We feel it is important to provide transparency on how CGC arrived at our method of certifying Clayton Crain’s Ultimate Fallout comics with the attached acetate covers. For us, this was an unprecedented item to grade. After Mr. Crain spoke with us prior to C2E2, the rules we applied to his books:

 

• The additional cover had to be created by an established artist in the industry.
• The comic to which the cover was attached had to contain a cover by that same artist.
• A copy of the comic with the attached cover had to be submitted to us for inspection prior to certifying any copies.

 

Given the recent circumstances, we have made adjustments to the labeling originally used for the Ultimate Fallout exhibiting the acetate cover. Going forward, any copies submitted to CGC will display in the label text: "In God We Intrust" Acetate Artist Cover attached with 2 staples after manufacturing. The books will still be allowed to receive a Universal label.

 

This will also apply to Mr. Crain’s forthcoming copies of Ghost Rider #1 and Deadpool Nerdy 30 #1 that contain an acetate cover.  

 

 

This does not belong in a Universal label in anything near 9.8 grade.

[ScarletSpider94]

So you think we’re going to see anymore behind the scene dealings with Clayton Crain and CGC in the immediate future?

Who’s worse in this between the two, Crain or Black Flag?

[DrunkWooky]

On 8/12/2022 at 12:14 PM, Crops068 said:

Uhmmm just sayin, yikes.

Pics?

[justafan]

On 8/12/2022 at 1:48 PM, Shazbot said:

This is absolute garbage. As an enthusiast newly retuning to the hobby, I will never, ever submit a book to CGC. I will never again purchase any book with your name attached to it. If I stay at this forum, it's only for the brain trust of forumites.

I'm really sorry about that because for many years until now CGC restored confidence in back issue sales, restoration verification, strict grading standards, and preservation of comic books but on the bright side you've spared yourself a huge waste of an investment in time, money, and effort unlike many of us with books that have basically been devalued back to their raw unofficial Overstreet graded status with a CGC blue labeled numerical opinion that's worth less than the toilet paper remaining on the roll in your bathroom.  The one silver lining to all of this is that many perfect 9.8's in a collection can now be considered 9.9 or above and many perfect looking 9.6's are likely to be fairly considered as 9.8's.  Really the CGC 9.6 to 9.8 lines have been so blurred as to render the grade differentiation useless with the only value differentiator being the blue label.  Now that the legitimacy behind that is gone it won't matter any more.

[ExNihilo]

On 8/12/2022 at 10:48 AM, Shazbot said:

This is absolute garbage. As an enthusiast newly retuning to the hobby, I will never, ever submit a book to CGC. I will never again purchase any book with your name attached to it. If I stay at this forum, it's only for the brain trust of forumites.

Same.  I'm done.  I know CGC doesn't care about my business since I'm just a small fish in a big pond.  I'm just here for the chuckles now.

Also, never dealt with Black Flag, but also, never will.  Same with Crain.  Don't care for his covers.

[jcjames]

On 8/12/2022 at 11:42 AM, justafan said:

I'm really sorry about that because for many years until now CGC restored confidence in back issue sales, restoration verification, strict grading standards, and preservation of comic books ...

CGC... putting the "con" back in "confidence".