'Fantast Collection' Kick Starter 'Selling Superman' (#1 CGC 7.0 blue) documentary 2024 6 6

[woowoo]

On 4/6/2023 at 8:08 AM, Robot Man said:

As a young kid, I mostly read Batman, Detective, the war titles and the occasional sci fi and horror titles. Mostly the ones that the covers sucked me into.

Then one day, I saw Spider-Man #3 at the drug store. I was pretty much hooked on Marvels from then on.

I kept buying new comics until the death of Superman, the Batman/Bane situation and finding out Peter Parker was a clone. Then came all the multiple covers and gimmicks. I just quit the current books and spent my money on vintage material. Heck, instead of buying 10 new gimmick books I could buy a cool PCH book. A wise decision. 

Ya all this multi verse and different stuff and 3 Spiderman's took all the fun out of comic book new stuff.

[Bookery]

On 3/30/2023 at 4:46 PM, Bronty said:

I guess the OO collections are done and this is the leading edge of the estates of big early collectors.    Guys that fit the profile of people like bangzoom, etc (who will hopefully be around for many years).

We talk often of "old comics" and refer to things like "golden-age" as if they were rare antiquities.  But it is a testament to just how modern the entire comic book medium is, when we have still had original owner collections surfacing into the 2020s.  You don't hear rare book collectors declaring "I love acquiring 18th-century first editions... but only if it's from an OO collection!".  

[Robot Man]

On 4/7/2023 at 5:35 AM, Bookery said:

We talk often of "old comics" and refer to things like "golden-age" as if they were rare antiquities.  But it is a testament to just how modern the entire comic book medium is, when we have still had original owner collections surfacing into the 2020s.  You don't hear rare book collectors declaring "I love acquiring 18th-century first editions... but only if it's from an OO collection!".  

I think the allure and mystic of OO collections is that they are percieved to be never in the hands of collectors or dealers and therefore, unrestored.

An often mistaken notion. OO buyers have been known to “work on” their own books to preserve or improve them. I even did it myself on books I bought off the rack and read as a kid. Long before they were worth anything or resto was considered a no no.

I don’t know how the rare book world views it. Obviously in nice original condition is probably most important but is resto as big a no no as it is in comics?

I am into vintage cars and motorcycles. Resto is usually a good thing. Although, a trend has developed that many enthusiasts, are swinging the way of “survivor” vehicles. Ones with honest wear (sometimes a considerable amount) and untouched are preferred. 

[tth2]

On 4/7/2023 at 10:40 PM, Robot Man said:

I am into vintage cars and motorcycles. Resto is usually a good thing. Although, a trend has developed that many enthusiasts, are swinging the way of “survivor” vehicles. Ones with honest wear (sometimes a considerable amount) and untouched are preferred. 

I was wondering about that.  I sometimes come across some show on TV where some collector has acquired an old vintage car who then inevitably immediately proceeds to have it restored from top to bottom, which makes me instinctively cringe. 

In our hobby, we'd call the resulting product a frankenbook, but I guess the vintage car market doesn't have a concept of frankencars.

[buttock]

On 4/7/2023 at 9:00 AM, tth2 said:

I was wondering about that.  I sometimes come across some show on TV where some collector has acquired an old vintage car who then inevitably immediately proceeds to have it restored from top to bottom, which makes me instinctively cringe. 

In our hobby, we'd call the resulting product a frankenbook, but I guess the vintage car market doesn't have a concept of frankencars.

There's a fundamental difference though.  A vintage car doesn't work with a busted header or cam.  Maintenance and repair is expected on most cars over time, so it makes sense to restore them to preserve functionality.  

[Robot Man]

On 4/7/2023 at 8:00 AM, tth2 said:

I was wondering about that.  I sometimes come across some show on TV where some collector has acquired an old vintage car who then inevitably immediately proceeds to have it restored from top to bottom, which makes me instinctively cringe. 

In our hobby, we'd call the resulting product a frankenbook, but I guess the vintage car market doesn't have a concept of frankencars.

I guess it’s how you look at it. A restored vehicle sure looks nice if done right. Look at it as saving it and driving it with pride. Not a bad thing in the vintage car market and often expected.

There is also the “survivor” crowd which I tend to swing to. Mechanically, tight and sometimes improved but shows its “patina”.

I prefer my comics the same way. They are what they are and show the life they have survived.

I have restored a few vintage motorcycles. I restored a ‘49 Indian Scout during Covid. It was in such bad shape, I restored it to original new condition but completely stock. Previously, I restored a ‘40 Harley to perfect original mechanical condition but just cleaned up the chrome and paint a bit to preserve it. In the current market, the Harley might be in higher demand to many. 

[Robot Man]

On 4/7/2023 at 8:11 AM, buttock said:

There's a fundamental difference though.  A vintage car doesn't work with a busted header or cam.  Maintenance and repair is expected on most cars over time, so it makes sense to restore them to preserve functionality.  

Mechanically yes but visually not always as important. Original “patina” and honest wear is appreciated. 

[tth2]

On 4/7/2023 at 11:11 PM, buttock said:

On 4/7/2023 at 11:00 PM, tth2 said:

I was wondering about that.  I sometimes come across some show on TV where some collector has acquired an old vintage car who then inevitably immediately proceeds to have it restored from top to bottom, which makes me instinctively cringe. 

In our hobby, we'd call the resulting product a frankenbook, but I guess the vintage car market doesn't have a concept of frankencars.

Expand  

There's a fundamental difference though.  A vintage car doesn't work with a busted header or cam.  Maintenance and repair is expected on most cars over time, so it makes sense to restore them to preserve functionality.  

Good point, and I get that.  You're not going to try to drive on tires from 1932.

But the changes they make go way beyond changing the parts that are necessary to make the car run.  They totally re-do the car to make it look perfect.

Edited April 7, 2023 by tth2

[adamstrange]

On 4/7/2023 at 11:11 AM, buttock said:

There's a fundamental difference though.  A vintage car doesn't work with a busted header or cam.  Maintenance and repair is expected on most cars over time, so it makes sense to restore them to preserve functionality.  

There's still interest in and value given to original parts.  My barber owns a Mercedes convertible from the 60s that he has owned for 50 years.  He got invited to a car show because everything is original and in pretty much immaculate condition.

Edited April 7, 2023 by adamstrange

[adamstrange]

On 4/7/2023 at 8:35 AM, Bookery said:

You don't hear rare book collectors declaring "I love acquiring 18th-century first editions... but only if it's from an OO collection!".  

This may have something to do with the size of my antique book collection.

[buttock]

On 4/7/2023 at 2:34 PM, adamstrange said:

There's still interest in and value given to original parts.  My barber owns a Mercedes convertible from the 60s that he has owned for 50 years.  He got invited to a car show because everything is original and in pretty much immaculate condition.

True, a barn find with 17 original miles and intact paint is going to be worth more than a concours level restoration, but that's the exception.  I learned to drive on a '66 mustang that my dad bought brand new and drove until 2010.  The amount of interest that car got was tremendous.  

[sfcityduck]

I am monumentally unimpressed by the treatment CGC has given this depressing non-pedigree collection.

First, CGC says this: "This collection was awarded provenance status by the experts at CGC and named the FANTAST Collection in honor of Dale Watts’ online pseudonym." 

WTF?  "Provenance status" is awarded?  I assume it was purchased to be meaningless hoopla to aid Heritage in selling comics.  Have any non-Heritage collections been "awarded provenance status"?  Is there a list somewhere of the "provenance status" collections?  And why is this collection worth that designation when other collections don't get that designation?  And what happens if this Fantast guy bought a Cage book once owned by Berk, does it get triple provenance status?  Total B.S.

Second, CGC says: 

Quote

As boxes filled Dale Watts’ family home, his collection became an obsession and eventually tore apart his family. His son, Darren, wasn’t allowed to look at the books, and Dale’s wife became so frustrated with the clutter and boxes she eventually filed for divorce

Now that's a back story that makes me want to buy a comic book!  Might as well call this the "Sad Stereotypical Comic Book Loser Collection"!  Is this really how we want the hobby promoted?  Is this the story we want for the first "special label" non-pedigree collection?  Totally stupid move by CGC.

Third, my appreciation of CGC's intelligence is further unenhanced by this bone-head comment:  "After Dale passed away in August 2020, Darren found what might be considered one of the greatest comic book collections of all time, certainly worth millions of dollars."

Again WTF? "One of the greatest comic book collections of all time"?  Large yes.  Some enviable books yes. But not legendary in quality. Not a pedigree. Really, not as "greatest" as numerous collections that are well-known (DA, Bangzoom, Verzyl family, etc.) and even collections that I know of that are not so well-known.  

So what happened here? Again, I'm assuming that CGC decided to trade in credibility for cash. 

I'd be ok with that if we could all get personalized labels on our CGC books.  That would be cool.  This is not.

[Robot Man]

On 4/7/2023 at 2:58 PM, sfcityduck said:

I am monumentally unimpressed by the treatment CGC has given this depressing non-pedigree collection.

First, CGC says this: "This collection was awarded provenance status by the experts at CGC and named the FANTAST Collection in honor of Dale Watts’ online pseudonym." 

WTF?  "Provenance status" is awarded?  I assume it was purchased to be meaningless hoopla to aid Heritage in selling comics.  Have any non-Heritage collections been "awarded provenance status"?  Is there a list somewhere of the "provenance status" collections?  And why is this collection worth that designation when other collections don't get that designation?  And what happens if this Fantast guy bought a Cage book once owned by Berk, does it get triple provenance status?  Total B.S.

Second, CGC says: 

Now that's a back story that makes me want to buy a comic book!  Might as well call this the "Sad Stereotypical Comic Book Loser Collection"!  Is this really how we want the hobby promoted?  Is this the story we want for the first "special label" non-pedigree collection?  Totally stupid move by CGC.

Third, my appreciation of CGC's intelligence is further unenhanced by this bone-head comment:  "After Dale passed away in August 2020, Darren found what might be considered one of the greatest comic book collections of all time, certainly worth millions of dollars."

Again WTF? "One of the greatest comic book collections of all time"?  Large yes.  Some enviable books yes. But not legendary in quality. Not a pedigree. Really, not as "greatest" as numerous collections that are well-known (DA, Bangzoom, Verzyl family, etc.) and even collections that I know of that are not so well-known.  

So what happened here? Again, I'm assuming that CGC decided to trade in credibility for cash. 

I'd be ok with that if we could all get personalized labels on our CGC books.  That would be cool.  This is not.

 

[Professor K]

On 4/7/2023 at 5:58 PM, sfcityduck said:

  Might as well call this the "Sad Stereotypical Comic Book Loser Collection"!  

If they named it that I'd be all over these books when they come to auction. 

[Microchip]

On 4/8/2023 at 7:58 AM, sfcityduck said:

Again WTF? "One of the greatest comic book collections of all time"?  Large yes.  Some enviable books yes. But not legendary in quality. Not a pedigree. Really, not as "greatest" as numerous collections that are well-known (DA, Bangzoom, Verzyl family, etc.) and even collections that I know of that are not so well-known.  

 

True that, I paused the video on the slabs he had in his safe.  It was a mix of modern books in high grade, which is nothing you can't find outside of a typical Clink auction.  There was no uber rare keys stashed away.

[Bookery]

On 4/7/2023 at 10:40 AM, Robot Man said:

I don’t know how the rare book world views it. Obviously in nice original condition is probably most important but is resto as big a no no as it is in comics?

The "rare book market" is so old that it actually is far more specialized than the comic book market.  20th-century books are most comparable to comics... with this, usually, the dust-jacket is king.  You want the jacket as sharp and in as original condition as possible. What is interesting here is that unlike comics in which "married" parts are a big hit in valuation, in books it doesn't matter if the book and the jacket are from the same copy, as long as both are original to that edition (in many cases there wouldn't be a way to tell anyway).

With older books it gets trickier.  Especially with books from the 1700s and earlier, it can be hard to determine what exactly is an "original binding".  Many books were sold as loose sets of pages to be bound by the owner in the manner he saw fit (often to match the "look" of a library).  In some cases, a fine leather re-binding of an older book, especially by a famous binder, might actually be worth more than its cheap original binding.  Fiction collectors often desire the book to be as issued from the publisher.  Non-fiction collectors (science, exploration, etc.) are often more interested in the content than overly concerned with how it was bound.  Of course, in all cases, completeness is critical... are all of the illustrations (plates), maps, endpapers, fold-outs, etc., still intact...

[tth2]

On 4/8/2023 at 5:58 AM, sfcityduck said:

WTF?  "Provenance status" is awarded?  I assume it was purchased to be meaningless hoopla to aid Heritage in selling comics.  Have any non-Heritage collections been "awarded provenance status"?  Is there a list somewhere of the "provenance status" collections?  And why is this collection worth that designation when other collections don't get that designation?  And what happens if this Fantast guy bought a Cage book once owned by Berk, does it get triple provenance status?  Total B.S.

You've just answered your own question in the same paragraph.  The Berk collection was awarded provenance status and was brought to market by CC, not Heritage.

I also recall the Dallas Stephens collection being awarded provenance status, and it was not brought to market by Heritage.  I want to say it was Mile High, but it was a while back.

On 4/8/2023 at 5:58 AM, sfcityduck said:

Again WTF? "One of the greatest comic book collections of all time"?  Large yes.  Some enviable books yes. But not legendary in quality. Not a pedigree. Really, not as "greatest" as numerous collections that are well-known (DA, Bangzoom, Verzyl family, etc.) and even collections that I know of that are not so well-known.  

I can see you have zero future in marketing. 

[tth2]

On 4/8/2023 at 8:59 PM, Bookery said:

20th-century books are most comparable to comics... with this, usually, the dust-jacket is king.  You want the jacket as sharp and in as original condition as possible.

For 20th-century books from the 1930s and earlier, do dust jackets in NM or better condition exist?  Or is VF the best that anyone can hope for, or is even that super rare (the equivalent of a NM+ comic book)?

[woowoo]

The Fantast collection is a bad name................. should have called it GET LOST collection that's how the dad felt. 

[sfcityduck]

On 4/8/2023 at 7:14 AM, tth2 said:

You've just answered your own question in the same paragraph.  The Berk collection was awarded provenance status and was brought to market by CC, not Heritage.

I also recall the Dallas Stephens collection being awarded provenance status, and it was not brought to market by Heritage.  I want to say it was Mile High, but it was a while back.

I can see you have zero future in marketing. 

Thanks for the answer.  But I'm still mystified as to what the criteria for a "provenance status" is.  

To me, good marketing is based on factual claims, not pure puffery.  I see so many false claims in the comic world it makes me wonder if this hobby is populated by suckers. So many false claims are made that have been thoroughly debunked on this site.  An example: On March 26 Heritage sold this Action 61:

The description?:  Action Comics #61 (DC, 1943) CGC Conserved VG 4.0 Off-white pages. This classic Atomic radiation Superman cover is by Jack Burnley. 

Only one problem: That cover is from June 1943 (e.g., before the A-Bomb or radiation scares). That's an oil field fire cover not an atomic radiation cover.  The background shows four oil drilling rigs in the background.  The men are wearing classic oil fire firefighting gear.  Superman is dropping down to plug a pipe going down into the earth that is clearly on fire (a chemical reaction) not emitting radiation.  This "radiation cover" B.S. has been debunked on this site repeatedly and the error pointed out to Heritage, CGC, and OPG.  I believe Clink even fixed its description once when this error was pointed out to them.  And yet, dealers love to call this a "radiation cover" in the hopes that A-Bomb collectors (like me) will be suckered into buying it.  To its credit, CGC does not call it a "radiation cover" or try to link to the A-Bomb.  Heritage, to its shame does. That's not marketing.  That misrepresenting.  

A different example: On March 19 Heritage sold this:

The description? Four Color #386 Uncle Scrooge (Dell, 1952) CGC VF+ 8.5 Off-white to white pages. Uncle Scrooge in "Only a Poor Old Man", with a Carl Barks story, cover (Uncle Scrooge's fist cover appearance), and art. 

Only one problem:  FC 386 is NOT Uncle Scrooge's first cover appearance. Not even close. More like his fifth. This one has also been debunked many times on this site. It is a monumentally dumb claim that's obviously false because seven issues before FC 386 this comic came Scrooge was on the cover of FC 379.  FC 386 isn't even the first scrooge cover by Barks.  Barks did the cover of FC 353 (33 issues before FC 386), a Duck Album, with Scrooge on the cover. And there were Scrooge covers before that.  Yet this false claim is repeatedly made by Heritage and dealers even though CGC does not call FC 386 the first Scrooge cover. Not marketing just misrepresentation.

I'm just tired of seeing false claims repeated so often that lazy folks begin to believe them.  Describing this Fantast collection as one of the "greatest collections" ever is just plain dumb.  We ought not let that kind of "puffery" pass unchallenged.