Beware…Fake high value CGC books in Pacific Northwest 14 14

[jaybuck43]

On 2/23/2023 at 2:24 PM, Mr. Zipper said:

If I were CGC my response would be that our safeguards worked. The case is obviously tampered with. 

I mean seriously... who thinks this looks ok? There is no criminal mastermind here peddling undetectable fakes. It's a cracked case that looks like it's been smoothed over with a butter knife and some sort of epoxy. The CGC blaming is a bit much. 

[Mr. Zipper]

On 2/23/2023 at 2:57 PM, EastEnd1 said:

Have to say, this blaming the victim vibe by some has me scratching my head... .  

Who is blaming the victim? There is more of a "blame CGC" vibe because someone didn't notice a cracked case with a blown out corner and the crack filled with glue. 

I think everyone has empathy for the victim and hopes the scumbag scammer gets caught. But in reality, all of the CGC security measures in the world won't help if potential buyers don't bother to carefully examine the items they are buying. 

[EastEnd1]

On 2/23/2023 at 3:12 PM, Mr. Zipper said:

Who is blaming the victim? There is more of a "blame CGC" vibe because someone didn't notice a cracked case with a blown out corner and the crack filled with glue. 

I think everyone has empathy for the victim and hopes the scumbag scammer gets caught. But in reality, all of the CGC security measures in the world won't help if potential buyers don't bother to carefully examine the items they are buying. 

I say we blame the criminal(s) 

[Mmehdy]

As a collector and dealer for over 50 years, I warned board members when I first came on these boards that this fraud would have a serious  negative impact on the overall GA/SA comic book. This has been going on for over 50 years Eerie Magazine 1/ Ceb #1 This is just the tip of the iceberg. In coin collecting, this had been going on for many year on a small level....then the Chinese gold and silver coin scam hit which is very well known to coin collectors when they came in that market. This is a warning...the same I made when I first entered the boards....this armature bozo is not the real one we should be afraid of....it the offshore criminals or a very very sharp small group here who hits and runs on a small vary valuable run of reprints that will come back to bite us. CGC SHOULD ACT NOW, before any major damage is done to stay ahead of this eventuality. I agree, MORE  pics, ID, etc.... In fact someone should start a wish list to the CGC and we will endorse and send it.

 If this company is worth 1 billion dollars,  Then do what Apple does,  they  have the best engineers in planet protect its I Phone and Mac.....hire a couple of them away and go for it.

CGC you are gonna have to step up for the long run and protect  of both serious CGC slab collectors and the overall resale comic book market as well as yourself.

[10centcomics]

On 2/23/2023 at 3:12 PM, Mr. Zipper said:

Who is blaming the victim? There is more of a "blame CGC" vibe because someone didn't notice a cracked case with a blown out corner and the crack filled with glue. 

I think everyone has empathy for the victim and hopes the scumbag scammer gets caught. But in reality, all of the CGC security measures in the world won't help if potential buyers don't bother to carefully examine the items they are buying. 

And what happens when the counterfeits get better and better? Someone in this very thread demonstrated how they could make a much more convincing CGC label with the correct font and kerning. And two pieces of plastic is easier to duplicate than an entire counterfeit comic book. Imagine if the counterfeit Cap 1 cover (which fooled many people over on the GA boards) was slabbed with a fake "CVR" label and put into a case without any cracks and properly sealed?

I don't think anyone is blaming CGC for the scam, but it also isn't ridiculous to ask CGC to put more security measures in place. A high resolution scan could accompany the certification page. The label could be printed on higher quality paper with elements that could be harder to counterfeit. These are things that enthusiasts, collectors, and dealers should expect from a company that is in the business of authenticating comic books. 

[southern cross]

See how the fake has roughly equal blue showing left and right side beside the white square.

CGC always has the blue showing on the left side and it looks off and always looks off. That was the first thing I noticed the fake label not having.

This detail wasn't picked up when the person copied the label trying to make it look like a authentic CGC label.

[Mr. Zipper]

On 2/23/2023 at 3:48 PM, 10centcomics said:

And what happens when the counterfeits get better and better? Someone in this very thread demonstrated how they could make a much more convincing CGC label with the correct font and kerning. And two pieces of plastic is easier to duplicate than an entire counterfeit comic book. Imagine if the counterfeit Cap 1 cover (which fooled many people over on the GA boards) was slabbed with a fake "CVR" label and put into a case without any cracks and properly sealed?

I don't think anyone is blaming CGC for the scam, but it also isn't ridiculous to ask CGC to put more security measures in place. A high resolution scan could accompany the certification page. The label could be printed on higher quality paper with elements that could be harder to counterfeit. These are things that enthusiasts, collectors, and dealers should expect from a company that is in the business of authenticating comic books. 

And no one is arguing that better security isn't a good thing.  You always need to be building a better mousetrap. Don't project my comments on this particular instance onto a [different] higher level discussion of "how companies should improve to ensure security"

[The Lions Den]

Lots of interesting comments and ideas in this thread. I do have a few casual observations of my own...

1) A fool and his money are soon parted.

2) Complacency is one of the most common causes of accidents.

3) Most scams are pretty easy to detect, but there are a few that are pretty crafty.

4) This scam wasn't one of the crafty ones.

5) How do I know that any certified book is actually what it's supposed to be? The only way I know for sure is to inspect it myself before I have it certified or take a leap of faith and crack it out of the holder. 

6) I sincerely hope CGC beefs up their quality control and security measures, but what's to stop the current owners from just selling the company and dumping all these issues onto someone else? 

 

[Bookery]

On 2/23/2023 at 3:54 PM, southern cross said:

See how the fake has roughly equal blue showing left and right side beside the white square.

CGC always has the blue showing on the left side and it looks off and always looks off. That was the first thing I noticed the fake label not having.

This detail wasn't picked up when the person copied the label trying to make it look like a authentic CGC label.

Yes, but the scammer fixed that issue on the Hulk 181 and GS X-Men.  The correct "blue" is showing.  However, the 181 in particular has terrible spacing on the grade number.  The GS looks better, though has the circular rather than oval decimal.  For whatever reason, the scammer is very uneven in his use of spacing and fonts.  We don't know how well the cases have been re-assembled.

[Sauce Dog]

On 2/23/2023 at 5:43 PM, Bookery said:

Yes, but the scammer fixed that issue on the Hulk 181 and GS X-Men.  The correct "blue" is showing.  However, the 181 in particular has terrible spacing on the grade number.  The GS looks better, though has the circular rather than oval decimal.  For whatever reason, the scammer is very uneven in his use of spacing and fonts.  We don't know how well the cases have been re-assembled.

Though it might be giving credit to the scammers where none is due, it is entirely possible these inconsistencies between tells are on purpose as a means to minimize false positives. By making some minor but obvious shortcomings, the scammer can isolate the most gullible targets and automatically turn away anyone with a more critical eye and who will just waste their time or call them out.

It likewise allows for a fallback if a buyer recognizes one book as an obvious scam, they can point to the other books do not share that same tell and thus the buyer will feel at ease accepting those other books are legitimate (the seller can just apologize and make a big show about how they were scammed and thank the buyer for noticing) 

[VintageComics]

On 2/23/2023 at 3:12 PM, Mr. Zipper said:

On 2/23/2023 at 2:57 PM, EastEnd1 said:

Have to say, this blaming the victim vibe by some has me scratching my head... .  

Who is blaming the victim?

There was an air of "I can't believe they didn't catch this" vibe coming from a few posters. 

But I agree with you and others who stated that slab did exactly what it was supposed to do. 

On 2/23/2023 at 3:48 PM, 10centcomics said:

I don't think anyone is blaming CGC for the scam

I don't think anyone is blaming CGC either. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Any business that wants to stay in business needs to adapt and CGC will adapt. 

The GOOD news is that the way the slabs are produced and more importantly, the way they are sealed take significant resources and effort. The barrier to entry is not small to do it properly. 

You're not going to have a clear, exact slab made for $1000 or even $10,000. Short of some sort of industrial espionage or theft, we're talking a significant, likely big 6 or 7 figure investment to manufacture slabs and a similar investment for the technology to seal them. 

Putting aside the unfortunate loss that some buyers may incur from the fraud, all of this is actually a good thing over all because it makes the community more vigilant for fraud and more aware of what to look for and that's always a plus.  

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 2/23/2023 at 6:27 PM, VintageComics said:

You're not going to have a clear, exact slab made for $1000 or even $10,000. Short of some sort of industrial espionage or theft, we're talking a significant, likely big 6 or 7 figure investment to manufacture slabs and a similar investment for the technology to seal them. 

I was wondering how much an encapsulation machine might cost.  You seem to be pulling numbers out of thin air, so hopefully someone with some actual knowledge of the costs chimes in.

[Prince Namor]

On 2/23/2023 at 1:48 PM, 10centcomics said:

It's easy for us to sit back here and say we all would have 100% caught these things. Keep in mind it's easier to notice these things when you have already been alerted to it. I agree people should practice due diligence but there needs to be more empathy for victims of scams (we can't expect everyone to be expert authenticators and graders... which is why services like CGC exist in the first place). As a community we should hold grading companies accountable for better safeguards against counterfeits. I look forward to seeing CGC's response to this. 

I don't think anyone is saying 100% would've been caught or aren't showing some empathy for the victims. 

However - I've dealt with plenty of books that were much less expensive than $50,000 that I still took the time to show other people - who I trust - to see what THEY think. 
 

What's wrong with pointing that out?

Isn't that better than "Hey you got screwed. Too bad for you."?

 

If my kid runs out in the middle of the street and gets side swiped by a car - I'm going to get him help and be sympathetic, etc. 

But at some point I'm going to say, "That's why you don't run out into the middle of the #&@!! street!!!"

[VintageComics]

On 2/23/2023 at 6:50 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

I was wondering how much an encapsulation machine might cost.  You seem to be pulling numbers out of thin air, so hopefully someone with some actual knowledge of the costs chimes in.

I wasn't pulling numbers out of thin air. 

You'd need to engineer and machine moulds for the outer case halves and the inner well halves. That's at least 4 moulds. 

But maybe more to be convincing since comics are all different shapes and sizes.

You'd need to come up with a supplier / manufacturer. 

You'd need to come up with a plastic compound. The plastic has to look and feel right. It has to be the right hardness and clarity. Not cheap. 

You'd need to inject / create all the separate plastic pieces. There would be trial and error. 

And the machines that do the sealing? Let's just say they're not cheap (yes I know how much they cost).

I'm vague because I'm choosing to be. I don't want to put too much info out there. 

Maybe you can make something similar but cheaper out of wood? 

 

[Tnexus]

On 2/23/2023 at 7:39 PM, VintageComics said:

I wasn't pulling numbers out of thin air. 

You'd need to engineer and machine moulds for the outer case halves and the inner well halves. That's at least 4 moulds. 

But maybe more to be convincing since comics are all different shapes and sizes.

You'd need to come up with a supplier / manufacturer. 

You'd need to come up with a plastic compound. The plastic has to look and feel right. It has to be the right hardness and clarity. Not cheap. 

You'd need to inject / create all the separate plastic pieces. There would be trial and error. 

And the machines that do the sealing? Let's just say they're not cheap (yes I know how much they cost).

I'm vague because I'm choosing to be. I don't want to put too much info out there. 

Maybe you can make something similar but cheaper out of wood? 

 

Technically all the scammer would need to do is fabricate a replacement of the weakest version of the CGC slabs that have been designed. Still a challenge, but significantly easier.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Tnexus

[Buzzetta]

On 2/23/2023 at 10:39 PM, VintageComics said:

I wasn't pulling numbers out of thin air. 

You'd need to engineer and machine moulds for the outer case halves and the inner well halves. That's at least 4 moulds. 

But maybe more to be convincing since comics are all different shapes and sizes.

You'd need to come up with a supplier / manufacturer. 

You'd need to come up with a plastic compound. The plastic has to look and feel right. It has to be the right hardness and clarity. Not cheap. 

You'd need to inject / create all the separate plastic pieces. There would be trial and error. 

And the machines that do the sealing? Let's just say they're not cheap (yes I know how much they cost).

I'm vague because I'm choosing to be. I don't want to put too much info out there. 

Maybe you can make something similar but cheaper out of wood? 

 

Given what I know about creating toy molds, you are not too far off if you were creating something from scratch, however, it IS far cheaper to reverse engineer the process. 

Still... I could see a scammer produce a perfect product and it would come from within rather than outside of CGC.

Again, from what I know of toy molds, there are factories in China that are turning out materials during off hours.   I am curious to know as to where CGC is sourcing their plastic shells.   Where are they made?  Because, and I am not being a chicken little sky is falling person, but given what I know about toys, I have always assumed that it is only a matter of time before someone who has access to the CGC manufacturing process starts turning out their own materials to slab their own books. 

@CGC Mike Please pass this off to our Blackstone Overlords.  The plant or facility that prints the inner well should be different from the plant or facility that prints the hard shells. If they are not already doing that then they should.  I assume that the labels are generated at CGC or at a separate location already. 

To anyone that doubts that I know what I am talking about... 

Meet Tunghori.   https://www.tunghori.com/ 

Tunghori is no longer on eBay.  Rumor has it that Hasbro shut him down or claimed some type of violation.  He is now selling modern Star Wars figures that he procures from the factories in China.  Some believe that they are pieced together off the line or that they are factory samples. Either way he has access to things he should not.   Exclusives?  He has them.  (He's not supposed to). Retired figures?  (He's not supposed to).  He has them.  These are indistinguishable from the Hasbro releases down to date stamps.  Once in awhile they may be missing a piece that is produced at another factory, but he has access to everything available at the factory he has his connection to.

Then there is Lego.  There are a couple of Lego knock off factories that are using Lego's machines but not stamping the bricks.  That's what Lepin was doing for years until Lego somehow got the Chinese government to shut them down.  The deal was supposedly that Lego would expand their operations in China if the Chinese government would crack down on Lepin.  China did and Lego expanded.  However, you know that Whack a mole game?   Now there are other knock off brands out there.  In the Lego community it is believed that they have access to the injection mold machines that Lego uses.  They just don't stamp the bricks at the last step of the process. 

It's only a matter of time before someone that should not have access gets access. 

 

 

[Mr. Zipper]

I think you guys are overthinking it. There’s absolutely no need to reverse engineer CGC slabs and spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in the process. There’s already millions of CGC slabs in existence. They can buy $25 slabbed books off of eBay all day long and figure out how to take it apart with minimal damage and then reassemble to hide the broken posts. They don’t need to be perfect and fool the most savvy and eagle eyed dealers and collectors. They just need to find that one person. 

[D2]

I think what needs to be addressed is, yes we can go through the inconsistencies and flaws these scammers are using, and it is relevant for us to go through each flaw in detail…

I think what’s most important is the fact that we now know these exist, and to keep your own eyes out… because

Scammers will get better. They will also fine tune their flaws and adjust the fake product. 

I think it’s also important that CGC becomes the world leader at combatting this issue, because they are the gold standard now, and we, as investors of their product, rely on the security of their product to uphold the value of our investments. 
 

[500Club]

On 2/23/2023 at 4:27 PM, VintageComics said:

There was an air of "I can't believe they didn't catch this" vibe coming from a few posters. 

The ‘that’s so obvious, I’d have never been fooled’ sentiment.

I can say, I’ve definitely recalibrated the index of suspicion I’ll be applying to CGC slabs and the books inside them.  I’m telling myself, for sure, I’d have caught that funny font, and the 1mm bubbling of the posts, but…

[MarvelsKryptonite]

There is something odd and amiss with this whole story, and it's about as obvious as the small discrepancies with label.

What I'd like to know is what the guy paid (got ripped off) for a Hulk #1. If it's anywhere under $12-15k, then how could that not be a red flag in itself?

Among the Facebook threads there was some insinuation toward what was paid. Anybody with 40 years of comic industry experience is going to know what a book like that is worth. In fact, had it been anything under that amount, the question then comes up of who was ripping off who, especially in lieu of the latter points to be described in this comment.

I'd like to know some numbers in these stories. But even if he got it for $1, this is extremely damaging to the industry as a whole. I find it hard to believe that one single lone "scammer" is at the root of this.

All aside, here's the real kicker that may throw the whole thing through a loop: back about 7-8 months ago there was a Hibid auction up in that Spokane corridor that had nearly every single one of those books this guy has pictured in a single lot (along with various miscellaneous things like furniture and even a fur coat). When I happened upon it, I can't say my eyes didn't get big and wide with what-ifs and dreams of the jackpot. But I learned at a very young age if it's too good to be true it is.

The photographs for the auction we're not clear enough to read the labels, in any request for more information is ignored in that type of auction. So I rationally assumed most of those were just facsimile graded books - mainly the Hulk(s), GSXM 1, Spidey, etc. There was a box of raw comics that they carelessly photographed enough to show what may have been considered a somewhat lucrative raw collection. Enough that I bid $150 mainly for the few ASM's that caught my eye. In the end, I'm sure overzealous hopes were what won that auction. If I recall, I think it closed at about $400 to $500.

Nobody's going to be that lucky or stupid enough to believe they should be so fortunate to win an auction for that many key comic books at $4 to $500. And that's even to say if the focus of their purchase wasnt directed at some of the other ticket items in the lot, which I think included some kind of signed letter from Audrey Hepburn and an ivory walking cane.

Point being that The whole thing borderlined absurdity, as does this guys story. You can't crack a slab without there being some evidence, period. That's what they're designed foremost with the intention of providing.

So then, if there is any validity to these poor saps claimed misfortunes, they may be in pursuit of this lone "scammer" (unlikely) to the avail of finding he was the winner of that auction. However, maybe he was the seller?

Either way, when I offered up this information, the guy promptly went so far as to name me as the scammer. Well hell, I need that bs like I need a kick in the groin. I don't particularly need a kick in the groin, and when I do, my wife has a long standing tab on that tally😆.